the Apostle Paul kept the Torah!

[bugkiller]

"appearance sake" is another word for "deception", is it not?

Say I am curious. Are you a natural blood line Jew or a convert to the MJ faith? If so what was your former religious association?

bugkiller

 

[ananda]

Say I am curious. Are you a natural blood line Jew or a convert to the MJ faith? If so what was your former religious association?

To the best of my knowledge, I am ethnically Gentile, and not of the tribe of Judah. I was previously a mainstream/new-evangelical/Baptist Christian for over 20 years.

 

[bugkiller]

The question is, did Paul keep the Torah after his conversion?

I wonder if there is a difference in Torah observance and observing Jewish customs.

bugkiller

 

[ananda]

I wonder if there is a difference in Torah observance and observing Jewish customs.

Absolutely. Messiah upheld the former, and cast down the latter.

 

[bugkiller]

To the best of my knowledge, I am ethnically Gentile, and not of the tribe of Judah. I was previously a mainstream/new-evangelical/Baptist Christian for over 20 years.

Thank you.

bugkiller

 

[brinny]

I wonder if there is a difference in Torah observance and observing Jewish customs.

bugkiller

Whoa, good question bro'

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by bugkiller Say I am curious. Are you a natural blood line Jew or a convert to the MJ faith? If so what was your former religious association?

To the best of my knowledge, I am ethnically Gentile, and not of the tribe of Judah.
I was previously a mainstream/new-evangelical/Baptist Christian for over 20 years.

Don't forget tho, the tribes of Benjamin and Levi joined with the tribe of Judah to form the Nation/Kingdom of Judah in the OT

Paul also said he was of the tribe of Benjamin in his epistles.

Rom 11:1
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not!
For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

Phl 3:5
circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;

His tribe is also mentioned in Reve 7

Rev 7:8
of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand [were] sealed; of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand [were] sealed; of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand [were] sealed.

http://www.herealittletherealittle.net/index.cfm?page_name=2houses-of-Israel

THE TWO HOUSES OF ISRAEL

There is a general error among most Christians and a lot of Jews regarding the identity of the children of Israel. Because of a general lack of historical understanding, most Christians believe that the Jews are ALL of the people chosen by God in the Old Testament. Additionally, many Christians believe that they belong to an unrelated group known biblically as "Gentiles." In this article, we are going to show from the Scriptures that both of these conclusions are founded on incorrect assumptions.

Did you see a problem with those comments? They reflect a common misconception about WHO the children of Israel actually are. The Bible tells us very specifically who comprised the "children of Israel." They are listed in several places in the book of Genesis.

The children of Jacob, who was renamed Israel (Gen. 32:28), were:

• (1) Reuben
  (2) Simeon
  (3) Levi
  (4) Judah
  (5) Zebulun
  (6) Issachar
  (7) Dan
  (8) Gad
  (9) Asher
  (10) Naphtali
  (11) Joseph
  (12) Benjamin

 

[brinny]

...speaking of tribes, and 12,000, is that literal or figurative?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Don't forget tho, the tribes of Benjamin and Levi joined with the tribe of Judah to form the Nation/Kingdom of Judah in the OT

Paul also said he was of the tribe of Benjamin in his epistles.

His tribe is also mentioned in Reve 7

...speaking of tribes, and 12,000, is that literal or figurative?

Good question. Perhaps one could make a thread on that

http://www.christianforums.com/t3249575/
Questions on the 12 tribes in Rev. 7

Revelation 7 lists the 12 tribes on Israel as follows:

4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

But this list differs a bit from other OT lists, for example in Numbers 1:20-42:

20 From the descendants of Reuben ...
22 From the descendants of Simeon...
24 From the descendants of Gad...
26 From the descendants of Judah...
28 From the descendants of Issachar...
30 From the descendants of Zebulun...
32 From the sons of Joseph...
34 From the descendants of Manasseh...
36 From the descendants of Benjamin...
38 From the descendants of Dan...
40 From the descendants of Asher...
42 From the descendants of Naphtali...

And in Ezekiel 48, the tribes differ again:

1 "...Dan will have one portion; .
2 "Asher will have one portion;
3 "Naphtali will have one portion;
4 "Manasseh will have one portion;
5 "Ephraim will have one portion;
6 "Reuben will have one portion;
7 "Judah will have one portion;
23 '...Benjamin will have one portion;
24 "Simeon will have one portion;
25 "Issachar will have one portion;
26 "Zebulun will have one portion;
27 "Gad will have one portion;

1) In Rev 7, what happened to the tribe of Dan? *[and the half tribe of Ephraim]

2) Also in Rev 7, the Levites are now included, but I thought their tribe was scattered among the other tribes to serve as priests.

3) Do the latter chapters of Ezekiel speak of the coming Third Temple? If so, why is that list different from Rev 7?

4) Is Joseph in Rev 7 the same as the tribe of Ephraim in Ezekiel 48?

5) Even is all the tribes reform in Rev 7, how will it be known who goes to each tribe? Hasn't there been intermixes in the tribes for 2000+ years, even before Jesus' day? Did the tribes scatter throughout the earth? Will DNA testing enable them to sort each other out?


Sorry if this is long. I'm studying the bookof Revelation and am stumped and confused by these things.

Can you clear some of this up? Thank you.

 

[brinny]

it would be a good study, cuz tribes mean the head of each tribe, and their wives and children are not included in the count, doesn't it? For instance there's actually more than the 12,000 in each tribe, and then there's the generations after them (a thousand generations?)....whoa, mind boggling...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

it would be a good study, cuz tribes mean the head of each tribe, and their wives and children are not included in the count, doesn't it? For instance there's actually more than the 12,000 in each tribe, and then there's the generations after them (a thousand generations?)....whoa, mind boggling...

I remember reading somewhere that someone had mentioned the order of those 12 tribes actually formed a prayer, and thus I made a thread on it.
You may remember it :

http://www.christianforums.com/t7381359/#post52235075
12 Tribes of Revelation a Prayer?

Reve 7:
1. Judah= "I will praise YHWH" 2. Reuben= "He looked on my humliation" 3. Gad= "In raid" 4. Asher= "Happy am I" 5. Naphtali= "My wrestling" 6. Manasseh= "Making me to forget" 7. Simeon= "He hears me" 8. Levi= "and obligated me" 9. Issachar= "Gave me hire"10. Zebulun= "a dowry" 11. Joseph= " he took away my reproach" 12. Benjamin= "by Son of His right hand"

Judah also had 5 full blooded brothers and I never really had thought about that until I studied on this covenantel parable in Luke 16!

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

LUKE 16:27 "Then he said, 'I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father's house,
28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.' "

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity.
Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

 

[brinny]

I remember reading somewhere that someone had mentioned the order of those 12 tribes actually formed a prayer, and thus I made a thread on it.
You may remember it :

http://www.christianforums.com/t7381359/#post52235075
12 Tribes of Revelation a Prayer?

Reve 7:
1. Judah= "I will praise YHWH" 2. Reuben= "He looked on my humliation" 3. Gad= "In raid" 4. Asher= "Happy am I" 5. Naphtali= "My wrestling" 6. Manasseh= "Making me to forget" 7. Simeon= "He hears me" 8. Levi= "and obligated me" 9. Issachar= "Gave me hire"10. Zebulun= "a dowry" 11. Joseph= " he took away my reproach" 12. Benjamin= "by Son of His right hand"

Judah also had 5 full blooded brothers and I never really had thought about that until I studied on this covenantel parable in Luke 16!

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary


The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity.
Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

Yes, i remember it now (just checked it out) , and yes, it seems like code, a spiritual code in the language of God Himself. Awesome.

 

[Steve Petersen]

From Acts it is very clear that Paul DID keep the Torah.

The question seems to be his motive for doing so.

 

[brinny]

Jesus didn't.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Jesus didn't.

Really?

Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4)

Jesus never sinned; therefore, He kept the Law.

 

[ananda]

Thank you.

You're welcome

 

[Frogster]

From Acts it is very clear that Paul DID keep the Torah.

The question seems to be his motive for doing so.

dude, i showed you acts 21, yeah, paul did not go around stealing or commiting adultery, apostasy was what they thought in 21, but he said he became like them, the gentiles in gal 4;12, his former life in the jews religion in gal 1, and all that stuff was poop in phil 3.

and the jewish christians in antioch, were living as gentiles, something you never seem to want to prove me wrong on.

one new man, after the abolishment of jewish law, eph 2;15, so u can't just go by the whole vow thing in 21.

no, paul did not steal...

 

[Frogster]

Really?

Sin is transgression of the Law (1 John 3:4)

Jesus never sinned; therefore, He kept the Law.

yet he declared the food clean, pre cross.

 

[Frogster]

And yet he observed the Lord's Feasts. He took a Nazarite Vow. He was arrested for entering the temple to perform a cleansing sacrifice.

He circumcised Timothy AFTER teaching that Christ will be of no use to you if you become circumcised.

Did Paul hate Timothy? Why would he want to condemn Timothy to hell?

here is a brief exposition of the over exhausted overpressed vow event, by the way, he snipped tim for evangelistic reasons, no way tim lived as a jew with paul it would isolate jew from greek, that is what the torah did.


Acts 21. Paul goes to Jerusalem with his heart wide open, even bringing money he collected from the Gentiles, to show good will and unity. Paul arrives in Jerusalem, only to hear from James that they thought Paul taught apostasy in verse 21, the Greek for “forsake” Moses, same word used in Thessalonians about who some deem the “Antichrist”, serious accusation. Did Paul preach apostasy? No. James, understandably fearing the thousands said, "do what we tell you", to Paul, so Paul, who said in 1 Corinthians 9, that he did certain things to further the gospel, become as a Jew or Gentile etc, along with 2 Corinthians 4, while saying he commended himself to others, commended himself to James. So yes, Paul took the vow, no big deal really, so what!? In a transitional stressful time, in an unfolding history of the apostleship of Paul and the church, along with the integration of Jew and Gentile populations, Paul did not want to freak out James, he took the vow. So what? And no, Paul did not go around preaching it’s fine to sin, and he already knew they thought about him, so again, he took the vow, fine, but in upper Acts he spoke of the OT and the resurrection, not legalism. Also let’s not forget that James mentioned about how years earlier, they helped Paul with the gentile issue in Acts 15, so yeah, now Paul helped James

 

[Frogster]

"appearance sake" is another word for "deception", is it not?

tim was jewish anyway, they went by the mother, she was jewish,

do you have a WITNESS that paul was deceptive? you are also calling tim deceptive, where is your WITNESS?