Questions on the 12 tribes in Rev. 7

[Dondi]

Revelation 7 lists the 12 tribes on Israel as follows:

4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

But this list differs a bit from other OT lists, for example in Numbers 1:20-42:

20 From the descendants of Reuben ...
22 From the descendants of Simeon...
24 From the descendants of Gad...
26 From the descendants of Judah...
28 From the descendants of Issachar...
30 From the descendants of Zebulun...
32 From the sons of Joseph...
34 From the descendants of Manasseh...
36 From the descendants of Benjamin...
38 From the descendants of Dan...
40 From the descendants of Asher...
42 From the descendants of Naphtali...

And in Ezekiel 48, the tribes differ again:

1 "...Dan will have one portion; .
2 "Asher will have one portion;
3 "Naphtali will have one portion;
4 "Manasseh will have one portion;
5 "Ephraim will have one portion;
6 "Reuben will have one portion;
7 "Judah will have one portion;
23 '...Benjamin will have one portion;
24 "Simeon will have one portion;
25 "Issachar will have one portion;
26 "Zebulun will have one portion;
27 "Gad will have one portion;

1) In Rev 7, what happened to the tribe of Dan?

2) Also in Rev 7, the Levites are now included, but I thought their tribe was scattered among the other tribes to serve as priests.

3) Do the latter chapters of Ezekiel speak of the coming Third Temple? If so, why is that list different from Rev 7?

4) Is Joseph in Rev 7 the same as the tribe of Ephraim in Ezekiel 48?

5) Even is all the tribes reform in Rev 7, how will it be known who goes to each tribe? Hasn't there been intermixes in the tribes for 2000+ years, even before Jesus' day? Did the tribes scatter throughout the earth? Will DNA testing enable them to sort each other out?


Sorry if this is long. I'm studying the bookof Revelation and am stumped and confused by these things.

Can you clear some of this up? Thank you.

 

[Sephania]

Revelation 7 lists the 12 tribes on Israel as follows:

4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

But this list differs a bit from other OT lists, for example in Numbers 1:20-42:

20 From the descendants of Reuben ...
22 From the descendants of Simeon...
24 From the descendants of Gad...
26 From the descendants of Judah...
28 From the descendants of Issachar...
30 From the descendants of Zebulun...
32 From the sons of Joseph...
34 From the descendants of Manasseh...
36 From the descendants of Benjamin...
38 From the descendants of Dan...
40 From the descendants of Asher...
42 From the descendants of Naphtali...

And in Ezekiel 48, the tribes differ again:

1 "...Dan will have one portion; .
2 "Asher will have one portion;
3 "Naphtali will have one portion;
4 "Manasseh will have one portion;
5 "Ephraim will have one portion;
6 "Reuben will have one portion;
7 "Judah will have one portion;
23 '...Benjamin will have one portion;
24 "Simeon will have one portion;
25 "Issachar will have one portion;
26 "Zebulun will have one portion;
27 "Gad will have one portion;

1) In Rev 7, what happened to the tribe of Dan?

2) Also in Rev 7, the Levites are now included, but I thought their tribe was scattered among the other tribes to serve as priests.

3) Do the latter chapters of Ezekiel speak of the coming Third Temple? If so, why is that list different from Rev 7?

4) Is Joseph in Rev 7 the same as the tribe of Ephraim in Ezekiel 48?

5) Even is all the tribes reform in Rev 7, how will it be known who goes to each tribe? Hasn't there been intermixes in the tribes for 2000+ years, even before Jesus' day? Did the tribes scatter throughout the earth? Will DNA testing enable them to sort each other out?


Sorry if this is long. I'm studying the bookof Revelation and am stumped and confused by these things.

Can you clear some of this up? Thank you.

How wonderful that you have read so carefully as to note that the listings of the tribes are different. I ahve a paper around somewhere that explains this, I will have to look for it though. I can answer one question off the top of my head,

5) Even is all the tribes reform in Rev 7, how will it be known who goes to each tribe? Hasn't there been intermixes in the tribes for 2000+ years, even before Jesus' day? Did the tribes scatter throughout the earth? Will DNA testing enable them to sort each other out?

That one is easy, G-d knows who they are, this is not for man to sort out, the angel is the one send to mark them and that angel has been watching for millenia, and is given the 'list' by the L-rD himself. The L-RD determines, even with intertribe marriage. The thing is, it says that there are 12,000 from each of these named tribes, but it doesn't say that they have to be pure blooded, meaning only have blood from that tribe, it is up to the L-RD to determine which catagory he wants them in. They only requirement is that they are servants of the L-RD G-d.

 

[Dondi]

How wonderful that you have read so carefully as to note that the listings of the tribes are different. I ahve a paper around somewhere that explains this, I will have to look for it though. I can answer one question off the top of my head,



That one is easy, G-d knows who they are, this is not for man to sort out, the angel is the one send to mark them and that angel has been watching for millenia, and is given the 'list' by the L-rD himself. The L-RD determines, even with intertribe marriage. The thing is, it says that there are 12,000 from each of these named tribes, but it doesn't say that they have to be pure blooded, meaning only have blood from that tribe, it is up to the L-RD to determine which catagory he wants them in. They only requirement is that they are servants of the L-RD G-d.

Thank you, Zayit. i would be highly interested in reading your paper.

Perhaps in regard to question 5 that there would be a dominate tribal gene that is evident for each person, somehow and that's how they will be placed. this would make sense for even in intermixing, one might actually strength the domninant gene, assuming that the parents/ancestors each have that particular tribal gene. Do you follow? Anyway, very interesting sepculation. Thanks.

 

[Sephania]

Well I found it, even at an hour this was less than I've spent before trying to find this document, but I have, it is about 5 pages long, and I will see about typing it up here for you, but later as I have to go now.

 

[Hadassah]

Basically the different orders of the tribes is telling a story about the spiritual state of Israel at the time of the census.

Each name means something, and when you put in line each name, it tells you what is going on between Israel and G-d at that time. (This is only the simplistic approach though)

 

[Hadassah]

Perhaps in regard to question 5 that there would be a dominate tribal gene that is evident for each person, somehow and that's how they will be placed. this would make sense for even in intermixing, one might actually strength the domninant gene, assuming that the parents/ancestors each have that particular tribal gene. Do you follow? Anyway, very interesting sepculation. Thanks.

From what I found out when I went to Germany the last time, there are many German Jews out there (self incl. though we've lost a lot of information due to self-hate and fear of being ostracised in the church or killed in the past) who are identified with their tribe. (Many last names like Naphtali/Naftali... Assher.. etc).

Before Napoleon invaded the Rhine area, he found that the Jewish population by far already had "last names" when it became a requirement in "Frankenreich" (France) to have last names and be identified in the census and government in general. However, the folks who weren't identifying by their tribe, were identifying by their trade, and many (until a few years before the holocaust) knew who they were.

My mentality is that G-d knows where everyone belongs and who they are, not one of us is lost under his eyes... and when the time comes for whomever it is to be picked and chosen to be annointed unto the work of the 144,000 men (and how many knows women and children!) that G-d knows who is who and what is what.

Also, within the synagogue structure, most folks who who are Kohenim (the preists)..

 

[Easystreet]

Basically the different orders of the tribes is telling a story about the spiritual state of Israel at the time of the census.

Each name means something, and when you put in line each name, it tells you what is going on between Israel and G-d at that time. (This is only the simplistic approach though)

Some have suggested that Dan is out because of idolatry Lev. 24:11; Judg. 18; and I King 12:28-29

Ephraim was the second son of Joseph. Also Ephraim was the name assigned to the 10 Northern Tribes.

Ephraim may only be use in the sense of a synonym.

 

[Dondi]

Well I found it, even at an hour this was less than I've spent before trying to find this document, but I have, it is about 5 pages long, and I will see about typing it up here for you, but later as I have to go now.

I am interested in reading your paper. But I don't mean to inconvenence you with having to type it all out. You don't have it in electronic form where you can copy and paste it?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

About the 12 tribes, being refreshing and different from others, is what bullinger say in this link accurate per word use/meaning?

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/number05.htm