Faith and Atheism

[brightlights]

I am an atheist yet my desire to believe in a deity is stronger than many christians I know, if I could believe, I would believe, its not simply a case of rejecting belief or denying a belief. I believe my position is more honest than some christians who do not believe, yet they deny their atheism. They find their apparent christianity more advantageous than being truthful.

I agree with you about the honesty of your position. I find your desire for faith interesting. I would consider this to be a tendency toward faith.

There are many atheists who have never believed in their entire lifetime so your assertion they once believed is unfounded.

I'll say this about people generally and I'll ask if it's true of you. I think that this tendency is there, but that doesn't mean that all people at one time were religious, attended church, or considered themselves theists. Yet isn't it the case that we all have profound experiences in life -- be it a profound experience in nature, with people, or with amazing circumstances that provoke a tendency to recognize a god? Have you ever looked up into a pitch-black night sky and seen the milky way and thought: "wow...I want to believe in God." Even for a split second?

 

[Davian]

Really? Never? Have you ever said a prayer in your life? Maybe when you were a kid? Thrown up a prayer of desperation? Were you connected to a church in any way growing up?

Nothing. Churches were for wedding and funerals - and I can't say that I remember any. My parents never discussed it; religion was some sort of hobby practiced by others. I do not recall discussing religion with friends/girlfriends or family, or a friend telling me that he was off to church on Sunday etc.

My first encounter with a theist in the workplace was my manager at my last job, 7 years ago. He was a Muslim (prayer rug in the office when he couldn't make it to the temple), from Jordan, and one day, when the subject of evolution came up, he told me he didn't believe in it, that it was not true. Having never considered that there actually existed individuals that might have such an opinion, I could not formulate a response. Ever heard or seen a joke about an MBA? This is that guy. I quit shortly after, for other reasons.

I do recall pondering deism for a few minutes in the transition from apatheism to what could be called ignosticism. Didn't see the point in it, though.

 

[Eight Foot Manchild]

Humans tend to believe in God*.

I agree with this part.

Atheists are those who have come to reject this belief that they (at one time) tended to have.

I do not agree with this part. I was raised in a religious family, attending both Catholic and Protestant churches, but I never believed a single word of it for one second.

Your description may apply to many atheists - perhaps even most of them - but not all.

 

[Sectio Aureo]

I agree with you about the honesty of your position. I find your desire for faith interesting. I would consider this to be a tendency toward faith.

I can not have faith in the sense I believe you are using it in, for this reason you can describe me as an atheist. I had to be honest with myself, something I ignored for too long, the internal conflict lead me to confusion often. Which lead to angst, poor decision making. Since becoming a free thinker I have more clarity, comprehension, and a greater appreciation for the natural world and all its organisms. Things just make more sense to me now, I feel a lot better for it, I was a Christian for a very long time and transitioning to atheism was somewhat akin to the cessation of nicotine, a terrible emotional roller coaster of a ride but I hung on to the end and now know I am much healthier for it. That was a few years ago and now I have mellowed into a pantheist.

I'll say this about people generally and I'll ask if it's true of you. I think that this tendency is there, but that doesn't mean that all people at one time were religious, attended church, or considered themselves theists. Yet isn't it the case that we all have profound experiences in life -- be it a profound experience in nature, with people, or with amazing circumstances that provoke a tendency to recognize a god? Have you ever looked up into a pitch-black night sky and seen the milky way and thought: "wow...I want to believe in God." Even for a split second?

There was a tendency in primitive human beginnings for humans to apply the god hypothesis to natural phenomena, I see religion as one of the legacies of this behaviour, I have had equally profound experiences both as theist and atheist. I have never ever believed in an anthropomorphic god.

I gaze at the night sky almost every-night, I am fortunate enough to live in part of the world where I can see down towards the centre of our galaxy (the milky-way) I am always in awe, I now know a few stars by their names and take delight sharing my small knowledge of astronomy with others.

As a pantheist the universe and the wonders of all natural life on Earth, are "candies" for me that leave me feeling extremely grateful and fortunate to be at least, a miniscule component of it all.

 

[Paradoxum]

Humans tend to believe in God*. Atheists are those who have come to reject this belief that they (at one time) tended to have.

I'm not sure it is right to say they reject the belief. They might just lose the belief.

 

[Sectio Aureo]

You will never see that day then.

Most likely, but I can hope.

For the divine is not something that is "discovered and proven" as you put it.

Maybe not.

You seem to think God would be akin to a novel object that one finds and proves to the world by saying: "Look, here, in this test-tube, or look here, under the microscope, or look here, through the telescope...I have found the divine, I have proven God..."

It does not work that way.

I agree, in my opinion the most probable reason god will not be "discovered and proven" is because deities are purely subjective. (No offence to my Christian friends.)
But I can live in hope that one day budding potential apologists like your self will be vindicated, and atheists like myself will instantly cease to exist by definition. Never say never.

 

[brightlights]

As a pantheist the universe and the wonders of all natural life on Earth, are "candies" for me that leave me feeling extremely grateful and fortunate to be at least, a miniscule component of it all.

Forgive me for just responding to this little bit. I did read your entire post and I appreciate it.

Grateful to whom? Isn't this a tendency toward faith? Don't you want to say "thank you" to someone, even if you know that belief in God is unfounded?

 

[brightlights]

Nothing. Churches were for wedding and funerals - and I can't say that I remember any. My parents never discussed it; religion was some sort of hobby practiced by others. I do not recall discussing religion with friends/girlfriends or family, or a friend telling me that he was off to church on Sunday etc.

My first encounter with a theist in the workplace was my manager at my last job, 7 years ago. He was a Muslim (prayer rug in the office when he couldn't make it to the temple), from Jordan, and one day, when the subject of evolution came up, he told me he didn't believe in it, that it was not true. Having never considered that there actually existed individuals that might have such an opinion, I could not formulate a response. Ever heard or seen a joke about an MBA? This is that guy. I quit shortly after, for other reasons.

I do recall pondering deism for a few minutes in the transition from apatheism to what could be called ignosticism. Didn't see the point in it, though.

Very interesting. I suppose my claim shouldn't be so strong then. If I may ask, why do you bother spending the time discussing religious issues on a religious forum?

 

[Elioenai26]

But I can live in hope that one day budding potential apologists like your self will be vindicated, and atheists like myself will instantly cease to exist by definition. Never say never.

That day will come.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Here is my contention:

Humans tend to believe in gods or supernatural persons

If we look at the last 1000 years, such beliefs probably represent a strong majority. To that extent I would agree. I am not convinced that this is necessarily a natural tendency, rather than an effect of acculturation. When we look at the more secular nations, they have gotten more and more secular, which at the least shows that acculturation can produce populations of people with a 'tendency' to disbelieve.

 

[brightlights]

If we look at the last 1000 years, such beliefs probably represent a strong majority. To that extent I would agree. I am not convinced that this is necessarily a natural tendency, rather than an effect of acculturation. When we look at the more secular nations, they have gotten more and more secular, which at the least shows that acculturation can produce populations of people with a 'tendency' to disbelieve.

Could you give an example of one of these secular nations?

 

[Jade Margery]

^ short title. Long title: "The tendency of faith and the phenomenon of atheism."

Here is my contention:

Humans tend to believe in God*. Atheists are those who have come to reject this belief that they (at one time) tended to have.

If we can agree on this I will share the purpose of this contention.

* or gods or supernatural persons

Hmmm, I would say more like...

Humans tend to anthropomorphize motivations behind natural events and assume supernatural causes when they do not understand the real causes.

One man's cow dies while his neighbor's lives. Why? If they don't understand how diseases or parasites or genetic disorders work, they might assume that the first man was being punished for something. Punished by what? Some powerful invisible force, evidently. And why? Well, maybe the man did something bad that no one knows about, except some powerful invisible force that watches him. Or maybe his whole family is cursed because of something his ancestor did.

When a person is kind and friendly, other people do nice things for them. When someone is a jerk or a criminal, other people treat them badly. So, it is not so much of a leap to see random good or bad things happening to a person and assuming that it is caused by some intelligent agency. A boy drowns in a creek--random tragedy, or is the river spirit angry? A tornado spares a house but destroys all the others--random freak of weather, or are those people special and holy?

Human beings are notoriously bad at differentiating randomness from intent, and when you couple that with ignorance towards physics, biology, geology, etc., it's little wonder that so many people have developed religions and mythologies. The fact that none of these religions or mythologies are the same between any two cultures that had no contact with each other only reaffirms their fictional properties.

Now, atheists are as human as anyone else and totally capable of having false and unsubstantiated beliefs as well. A lot of us try to avoid them but there are a fair number of spiritual atheists who believe in stuff like earth spirits or ghosts or what have you. Just like a christian can look at crystal healers logically and say 'you're clearly just putting a rock on your face that does absolutely nothing because it is just a pretty rock', atheists can look at christians logically and say 'you're clearly just following the mythology of ancient goat-herders who had no knowledge of how the universe actually worked, because no one did back then, and the gaps your 'god' fits into are only going to get smaller'.

So humans 'tend' to be wrong about this kind of stuff. Just because a lot of us are wrong about the same thing doesn't make it true.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Could you give an example of one of these secular nations?

Oh, the Scandinavian countries.

"According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005,[15]

• 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god".

• 53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".

• 23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force"."

It's interesting that there is a national church in Sweden, and many people belong to it for social or cultural reasons, rather than belief. Nevertheless, many Swedes are dropping off the rolls. In 1972, 95% of the population belonged to the Church of Sweden. In 2011, that number had fallen to 69%.

LINK

 

[Davian]

Very interesting. I suppose my claim shouldn't be so strong then. If I may ask, why do you bother spending the time discussing religious issues on a religious forum?

My children. As my children were coming to the age of asking the 'big' questions, I felt the need to have a good layman's grounding in science, which also led in to the 'non-sciences' (religion, pseudoscience, urban legends, myth, etc). I will not rely on the public school system to provide all of their education. So this is one of the sites that I frequent to learn about how people think, and to have ideas challenged. And it is far more practical that trying this stuff out on the in-laws.

My wife and I did not indoctrinate our children either way (gods as real, gods as myth) but they (at 14 and 16) understand the Christian deity to be in the same category as all the other gods they learn about in school.

I stay on here, as I find that there is plenty to learn from the sciencey types in the physical science forum (and here), and still plenty to learn about theists.

 

[brightlights]

Oh, the Scandinavian countries.

"According to the most recent Eurobarometer Poll 2005,[15]

• 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a god".

• 53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".

• 23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, god, or life force"."

It's interesting that there is a national church in Sweden, and many people belong to it for social or cultural reasons, rather than belief. Nevertheless, many Swedes are dropping off the rolls. In 1972, 95% of the population belonged to the Church of Sweden. In 2011, that number had fallen to 69%.

LINK

I fully agree that the Christian faith is on the decline in many european countries and that church numbers are rapidly falling, but according to your numbers 76% of Swedes gravitate toward belief in supernature.

 

[Davian]

...
I agree, in my opinion the most probable reason god will not be "discovered and proven" is because deities are purely subjective. (No offence to my Christian friends.)
But I can live in hope that one day budding potential apologists like your self will be vindicated, and atheists like myself will instantly cease to exist by definition. Never say never.

That day will come.

So much for not derailing the thread, Elio.

Would it be too much to ask to have you first establish the existence of your particular deity, prior to making further unsubstantiated quips, as you call them?

 

[Elioenai26]

So much for not derailing the thread, Elio.

Would it be too much to ask to have you first establish the existence of your particular deity, prior to making further unsubstantiated quips, as you call them?

I believe the great French Mathematician, Blaise Pascal's words will be of some benefit to you:

Pascal on God's Hiddenness


"God has willed to redeem men and to open salvation to those who seek it. But men render themselves so unworthy of it that it is right that God should refuse to some, because of their obduracy, what He grants others from a compassion which is not due to them. If He had willed to overcome the obstinacy of the most hardened, He could have done so by revealing Himself so manifestly to them that they could not have doubted of the truth of His essence; as it will appear at the last day, with such thunders and such a convulsion of nature that the dead will rise again, and the blindest will see Him.” It is not in this manner that He has willed to appear in His advent of mercy, because, as so many make themselves unworthy of His mercy, He has willed to leave them in the loss of the good which they do not want.

It was not, then, right that He should appear in a manner manifestly divine, and completely capable of convincing all men; but it was also not right that He should come in so hidden a manner that He could not be known by those who should sincerely seek Him.

He has willed to make himself quite recognizable by those; and thus, willing to appear openly to those who seek Him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from Him with all their heart. He so regulates the knowledge of Himself that He has given signs of Himself, visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who seek Him not. There is enough light for those who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition."

- Blaise Pascal, Pensées (430)
Pascal on God's Hiddenness - Apologetics 315

 

[Davian]

So much for not derailing the thread, Elio.

Would it be too much to ask to have you first establish the existence of your particular deity, prior to making further unsubstantiated quips, as you call them?

I believe...

That would 'yes', apparently.

... the great French Mathematician, Blaise Pascal's words will be of some benefit to you:

Pascal on God's Hiddenness


"God has willed to redeem men and to open salvation to those who seek it. But men render themselves so unworthy of it that it is right that God should refuse to some, because of their obduracy, what He grants others from a compassion which is not due to them. If He had willed to overcome the obstinacy of the most hardened, He could have done so by revealing Himself so manifestly to them that they could not have doubted of the truth of His essence; as it will appear at the last day, with such thunders and such a convulsion of nature that the dead will rise again, and the blindest will see Him.” It is not in this manner that He has willed to appear in His advent of mercy, because, as so many make themselves unworthy of His mercy, He has willed to leave them in the loss of the good which they do not want.

It was not, then, right that He should appear in a manner manifestly divine, and completely capable of convincing all men; but it was also not right that He should come in so hidden a manner that He could not be known by those who should sincerely seek Him.

He has willed to make himself quite recognizable by those; and thus, willing to appear openly to those who seek Him with all their heart, and to be hidden from those who flee from Him with all their heart. He so regulates the knowledge of Himself that He has given signs of Himself, visible to those who seek Him, and not to those who seek Him not. There is enough light for those who only desire to see, and enough obscurity for those who have a contrary disposition."

- Blaise Pascal, Pensées (430)
Pascal on God's Hiddenness - Apologetics 315

So from special pleading ("God" is different from everything else we discover about the world around us, using science), we move to circular logic (God can only been seen to exist by those that believe he exists).

Are you getting all of this, brightlights? Is this stuff supposed to be convincing?

 

[essentialsaltes]

I fully agree that the Christian faith is on the decline in many european countries and that church numbers are rapidly falling, but according to your numbers 76% of Swedes gravitate toward belief in supernature.

Well, the snowball has only just started rolling. As I said, they have gotten more secular over the past 100 years. It's also not really clear what people mean by "spirit or life force".

 

[Elioenai26]

we move to circular logic (God can only been seen to exist by those that believe he exists).

Are you getting all of this, brightlights? Is this stuff supposed to be convincing?

That's not what Pascal said. You misquote him Davian.

And no it isn't supposed to be convincing to you. Your mind is already made up it seems.

Now, back to the topic.... I believe every person has eternity set in their heart and so there is within every person, a yearning for the supernatural.