Rich-man and Lazarus True story or Parable

[redeemedbygrace24]

Interesting thread

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

See there! It does work.

Will you give an opinion?

God be gracious to me a sinner.

 

[seeking Christ]

Not sure what you mean by a Covenantal parable, but I do think of it as a parable rather than a literal meaning. Jesus is again giving us God's own perspective on things, because He knows how much we need it!!

I place this parable in the same category as the widow's last mite - He speaks of priorities time and again ...

 

[Habakk]

Josephus mentions something very similar in his portrait of hell. However it all depends on what you do mean by hell, because this is before the last judgement and so it’s not the lake of fire (The eternal place of the devil, his angels and the lost).

Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it (Isaiah 5:13-14).

 

[Gregory Thompson]

there is no true answer .

truth sets free

if i say .. yes it is literal ..

it does not set me free

if i say .. no it is figurative

the same abides ..

thus .. since i cannot know with certainity ..

no answer is the most correct answer .

 

[Koakku]

Mhm. -Posts for LLOJ.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Interesting thread

See there! It does work.

Will you give an opinion?

.

What works?


.

 

[seeking Christ]

What works?


.

Faith works!

 

[Ronald]

Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story?

Hi, I'll share a quote from my book, Hell ... If I Know, concerning this story.
"Cleary this is not symbolic language; this is to be taken literally. This is not an allegory. If it was just a parable, there would not be specific names of familiar people like Abraham and his spiritual location. Why describe two locations that exist after death in detail to symbolically mean something else if they did not exist? What moral truth would be gained from something abstract? Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. His parables did not use detailed descriptions of fictional, abstract territories.
The message to us is that this rich man died and went to a place of fire and torment. This wasn't his grave or tomb. He didn't become extinct when he died nor is he sleeping. He is consciously aware of his state of existence. He asks for only a drop of water since when he was living, the beggar only asked for scraps of food from him. Notice how his pride is no longer with him and he is humbled. Yet is it real humility or just another act of manipulation? He was hoping for mercy and to receive more than a drop. When he realized there was no relief for him in any way, he asked to send Lazarus to his brothers to warn them of this place of torment. The message is straight forward. The last line also points to a parallel of Jesus' death and resurrection and how many will not believe Him either.
But this alone is not the intent of the entire story. Judgments throughout the Bible have been with fire. That is the final means by which the Lord will destroy the ungodly and at the end of time, earth and the heavens too." R.D.Bruno

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story?

Hi, I'll share a quote from my book, Hell ... If I Know, concerning this story.
"Cleary this is not symbolic language; this is to be taken literally. This is not an allegory. If it was just a parable, there would not be specific names of familiar people like Abraham and his spiritual location. Why describe two locations that exist after death in detail to symbolically mean something else if they did not exist?

What moral truth would be gained from something abstract? Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. His parables did not use detailed descriptions of fictional, abstract territories.

The message to us is that this rich man died and went to a place of fire and torment. This wasn't his grave or tomb. He didn't become extinct when he died nor is he sleeping. He is consciously aware of his state of existence. He asks for only a drop of water since when he was living, the beggar only asked for scraps of food from him. Notice how his pride is no longer with him and he is humbled. Yet is it real humility or just another act of manipulation? He was hoping for mercy and to receive more than a drop. When he realized there was no relief for him in any way, he asked to send Lazarus to his brothers to warn them of this place of torment.

The message is straight forward. The last line also points to a parallel of Jesus' death and resurrection and how many will not believe Him either.
But this alone is not the intent of the entire story. Judgments throughout the Bible have been with fire. That is the final means by which the Lord will destroy the ungodly and at the end of time, earth and the heavens too." R.D.Bruno

Good post and thanks for your input


.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by OrthodoxyUSA
See there! It does work.

Will you give an opinion?

What works?

Faith works!

That works for me

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for NKJV
"faith" AND "works"
occurs in 15 verses in the NKJV

Rev 2:19
"I know thy works, love, service, faith, and thy patience;
and [as] for thy works, the last [are] more than the first.

Kindgdom Bible Studies Revelation Series

FROM THE CANDLESTICK TO THE THRONE ​

Part 46 ​

THE CHURCH IN THYATIRA ​

Reve 2:18
“And by the angel of the church in Thyatira write…”

The church in Thyatira has a longer message delivered to it from Jesus Christ than any of the seven churches,

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

there is no true answer .

truth sets free

if i say .. yes it is literal ..

it does not set me free

if i say .. no it is figurative

the same abides ..

thus .. since i cannot know with certainity ..

no answer is the most correct answer .

Your no fun!


.

 

[asiyreh]

There's about three main texts that support an idea of people dying and being transported straight into heaven. I'm not comfortable with that doctrine. The judgement has not yet taken place; and pretty much the rest of the entire bible supports the idea of Soul sleep, with a few prominent exceptions namely the heavenly council.

Take one of the other passages that support instant heaven:- the thief on the cross. Possibly Christ says to the thief "today you will be with me in heaven."
Now Christ rested the Sabbath rose on the Sunday and ascended into heaven a few weeks later. Hmm doesn't add up.

The thief also didn't die till the next day if memory serves correctly which leaves us another problem.

But if Christ says:- Mark this day; for you will be with me in heaven. Well the text definitely allows us that option and then we seem to be making some sense.

This passage in the main topic here, it's another one that seems to support instant heaven, but if it's simply a parable, based on the Pharisaical mindset, then no problem.

Soul sleep:- I always liked the idea, it doesn't bring me salvation but I like to ponder the theory.

Oh btw LittleLamb posted this most excellent discussion about it. A treasure trove of information, please check it out, cudos to little lamb and the author lol and of course most importantly our Good Lord.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

 

[CherubRam]

Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story? This is one of the largest studies I have of the NT/NC.

I myself humbly view it as a "Covenantle" parable, but would like to here views from other fellow Christians of it. Thanks.......

Matthew 3:9 "And no ye should be thinking to say in yourselves 'a Father we are having, the Abraham'. For I am saying unto ye, that is able the God out of the Stones, these, to raise-up offsprings/children to the Abraham. [Luke 3:8/16:24]

Luke 16:24 And he sounding said: "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus!, that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water, and should be cooling down the tongue of me,--that I am being pained in the Flame,this."

Does Orthodox Judaism believe and teach that there is a Hell?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Does Orthodox Judaism believe and teach that there is a Hell?

You could ask them yourself

http://www.christianforums.com/t4411693/
Jewish concept of Hell

I think most Jews including me do not believe in Hell. However we do believe in some type of Purgatory that those who do bad will go to for no longer then 12 months. Think of it as sort of a Rehab or temporary Jail to give you time to change, repent, among others. Then after you repent, and go through this stage, you get closer to G-d.

As a Jew I focus more on life here on earth then thinking of the Afterlife.

You are correct, as do many other Protestant religions (Orthodox, maybe Episcopals/Angligans.) The Catholic Church uses the Old Testament usually to justify their belief, and They also use 2 Macabees to, as well as a few verses from Matthew among others that talk about praying for the Dead, or something along those lines.

So in reality, it's not just Jews who believe in Purgatory.

 

[CherubRam]

You could ask them yourself

http://www.christianforums.com/t4411693/
Jewish concept of Hell

They say that Hell is a Pagan belief and that Judaism never taught such a thing. You would think that if Christ wanted to introduce the Pagan belief in Hell that he would have gave an explanation. If memory serves, the Catholics promoted the belief in Hell in order to sell indulgences. Do you believe that it is Christ's will that we join Paganism to him?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus
You could ask them yourself

http://www.christianforums.com/t4411693/
Jewish concept of Hell

They say that Hell is a Pagan belief and that Judaism never taught such a thing. You would think that if Christ wanted to introduce the Pagan belief in Hell that he would have gave an explanation.

If memory serves, the Catholics promoted the belief in Hell in order to sell indulgences. Do you believe that it is Christ's will that we join Paganism to him?

Judaism and Catholicism are 2 different breeds of animals.
And no, I do not believe Christ's will is for Christians to join in paganism or tickle the ears with fables.

2Ti 4:4
and they will turn [their] ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
Tts 1:14
not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

Fidel's Fantasy - War - YouTube

 

[justhappeneduponthis]

"A certain man"..."a certain man". Often the way that Jesus introduced teaching parables (the crooked steward, the wedding feast, the prodigal son, the good samaritan and the rich man and Lazarus). For an excellent study see the book The Rich Man and Lazarus by Brownlow North (Banner of Truth Trust)

But let us not go making some kind of allegory about the place of torment described. It is probably not the ultimate hell "gehenna" which will await the administering of the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20). But it is in all likelihood the place of helpless despair reserved in sheol (the grave) for the unbelieving and disobedient under the Old Covenant. (Remember that the New Covenant awaited the resurrection of Jesus and His victorious ascent into Heaven.)

At the appropriate time the "righteous" dead "in Abraham's bosom" would respond to the upward call of the resurrected Christ into knowledge and experience of fulness of joy (Ephesians 4 and Psalm 68).

Consider the following poem:
The Rich Man’s Death « justhappeneduponthis

 

[CherubRam]

"A certain man"..."a certain man". Often the way that Jesus introduced teaching parables (the crooked steward, the wedding feast, the prodigal son, the good samaritan and the rich man and Lazarus). For an excellent study see the book The Rich Man and Lazarus by Brownlow North (Banner of Truth Trust)

But let us not go making some kind of allegory about the place of torment described. It is probably not the ultimate hell "gehenna" which will await the administering of the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20). But it is in all likelihood the place of helpless despair reserved in sheol (the grave) for the unbelieving and disobedient under the Old Covenant. (Remember that the New Covenant awaited the resurrection of Jesus and His victorious ascent into Heaven.)

At the appropriate time the "righteous" dead "in Abraham's bosom" would respond to the upward call of the resurrected Christ into knowledge and experience of fulness of joy (Ephesians 4 and Psalm 68).

Consider the following poem:
The Rich Man’s Death « justhappeneduponthis

The New Covenant was established before he died on the stake. Gehenna and Hell are not the same thing. The word "sheol" mean "grave" and nothing else. The word "Gehenna" is used as a parable. So, how do you feel about adding Pagan beliefs to Christ?

 

[Anna Scott]

Greetings. How do others view that story Jesus told to the Jews in Luke 16 concerning the rich-man and lazarus. A parable or true story? . . . .

LittleLambofJesus,

Thinking not only of my own eternal fate, but that of my son and other loved ones, as well as all mankind; it seems incomprehensible that a loving God would sentence one to an eternal fate so horrible.

Think about this. A person could die at age 10 or age 16, a "blink" in eternity; and yet be condemned to unimaginable and unending torment.

The idea that this could be true is so depressing. When you think of all the torture and atrocities committed by humans here on earth; none can possibly compare to burning in an eternal fire. Think about the worst conceivable pain---the worst atrocities ever committed multiplied by infinity. Who can bear such a thought?

How could the few elect be happy throughout eternity knowing the suffering going on in Hell? God would have to erase reality from the minds of the elect. Some Christians actually claim this will be the case; but what does that say about a God who would inflict such eternal atrocities that he would have to wipe out the knowledge of His actions from the elect few in order for them to be happy in Heaven. IOW, God would have to hide, from His own people, what He was really doing to the lost. He would have to hide His own atrocities throughout eternity.

If this eternal torment is true, then I truly wish I had never been born. Even if I am saved at the end of my journey on this earth, I could not bear the fate of others--incomprehensible eternal atrocities, worse than anything the most evil human has ever accomplished.

I do not believe the loving God I know in my heart would commit such atrocities for all eternity.

Anna