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DO We Have Free Will?

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Giver

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I have no problem understanding the purpose of satan roaming the earth, but I was wondering what you thought the purpose was.
I don’t know for sure, and Jesus tells me Satan is here because he loved him.

Personally I believe because man disobeyed God and followed Satan, he let Satan have powers over man. Why God does anything is way beyond my understanding, and I was told by Jesus to never try to figure him out.


 
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simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
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In all your verses there seems to be things God plans and executes and some things man is responsible for, so where men responsible for crucifying Christ?
They are compatible...You see it is God's will and you see that evil men conspired...

Isa 53:10Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Acts 4:27 Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.28They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen
 
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simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
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Get a load of this one, 1 kings 22:22 where God ordains a demon to go and deceive...
And yet He is not responsible for that sin..
Here is a good analogy why He is not...
[If I send my wife to the store to get something, I am not the one doing it -- she is. If I know that in the process she is going to speed and break the law, am I the one guilty for her speeding? Of course not, since she is exercising her free choice.]
 
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sunlover1

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Genesis 45:4-8

4 Then Joseph said to his brothers, “Come close to me.” When they had done so, he said, “I am your brother Joseph, the one YOU SOLD into Egypt! 5 And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that GOD SENT me ahead of you. 6 For two years now there has been famine in the land, and for the next five years there will be no plowing and reaping. 7 But GOD SENT me ahead of you to preserve for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
(here's the kicker)>>>8 "SO THEN, IT WAS NOT YOU WHO SENT ME HERE, BUT GOD. He made me father to Pharaoh, lord of his entire household and ruler of all Egypt.

Acts 2:23
23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the DEFINITE PLAN AND FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 4:27
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever YOUR HAND AND YOUR PLAN had predestined to take place.
Hi simonthezealot! :clap:
What are you using these verses to show?
That God does desire His kids to sin?
 
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Noxot

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the way God uses our freewill to order all things is hard to explain. it is vastly hard to explain.

I would say that most human beings only have a shadow of what freewill is, the reality of freewill is in Christ and since evil is the lack of good, we humans who are defective have a lack of true freewill to certain degrees, just as we have a lack of good to certain degrees and lack of knowledge, lack of wisdom and ect. Christ being the solution ofc. we just have a much larger capacity when we are cleaving to Christ and being made whole in Christ. mankinds general best has given us the world we live in, a world that does not comprehend that it could fix world hunger for 1 year by simply using a fraction of the money they use on wars to instead feed the poor.
 
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Yab Yum

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Individual free will exists but is always brought into balance by cosmic justice whenever it is out of accord with the will of Providence.

Deuteronomy 16:20
Justice, and only justice, you shall pursue, that you may live and possess the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

Jeremiah 7
5 For if you truly amend your ways and your deeds, if you truly practice justice between a man and his neighbor, 6 if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, or the widow, and do not shed innocent blood in this place, nor walk after other gods to your own ruin, 7 then I will let you dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers forever and ever.
 
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simonthezealot

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Hi simonthezealot! :clap:
What are you using these verses to show?
That God does desire His kids to sin?
No I was helping explain this comment,
"God may not ordain that one of His children sin, but scripture clearly states that the actions of sinful men are His pre-determined plan...
It's called compatibilist free-will..."
 
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sunlover1

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No I was helping explain this comment,
"God may not ordain that one of His children sin, but scripture clearly states that the actions of sinful men are His pre-determined plan...
It's called compatibilist free-will..."
:thumbsup:
Sorry, I probably needed to scroll back further.
Great to see you, I perceive you are busy lately :D
 
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simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
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:thumbsup:
Sorry, I probably needed to scroll back further.
Great to see you, I perceive you are busy lately :D
That would be correct... Getting back into my intentional discipleship studies starting this week as well as a record fourth quarter at work, mixed in with a couple holidays and a vacay can put a guy under some deadlines, LOL.
 
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sunlover1

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That would be correct... Getting back into my intentional discipleship studies starting this week as well as a record fourth quarter at work, mixed in with a couple holidays and a vacay can put a guy under some deadlines, LOL.
Don't cause your sister to stumble! (Green with envy lol)

Well bless your heart for finding time for us brother simon!
Glad to see you living your life to the fullest!
 
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Shiloh1-49-10

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No I was helping explain this comment,
"God may not ordain that one of His children sin, but scripture clearly states that the actions of sinful men are His pre-determined plan...
It's called compatibilist free-will..."


That term is a first for me and I'm not certain I understand it completely. Yes, God has a pre-determined plan for the salvation of man and the regeneration of this world and it necessarily involved the death of His Son. All will be accomplished. Allowing wicked men to crucify His Son does not make Him partaker of their wickedness...He knew what they would do to His Son before the world was made...but He did not orchestrate that they do it to Him. [Remember they could not take His life from Him...I lay it down of myself, that I might take it again] There's a vast difference between allowing and causing a thing. Judus betrayed the Lord but let's not say that God ordained him to do it. Is this 'compatibilist free-will'?
 
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Shiloh1-49-10

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It's never God's will for us to sin. He abhors all sin & delights in what is righteous, pure & good. Even though we all sin, we can obtain forgiveness from the blood of Christ.

It’s your sins that have cut you off from God. Because of your sins, he has turned away and will not listen anymore. (Isaiah 59:2)

Amen to that.
 
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simonthezealot

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That term is a first for me and I'm not certain I understand it completely. Yes, God has a pre-determined plan for the salvation of man and the regeneration of this world and it necessarily involved the death of His Son. All will be accomplished. Allowing wicked men to crucify His Son does not make Him partaker of their wickedness...He knew what they would do to His Son before the world was made...but He did not orchestrate that they do it to Him. [Remember they could not take His life from Him...I lay it down of myself, that I might take it again] There's a vast difference between allowing and causing a thing. Judus betrayed the Lord but let's not say that God ordained him to do it. Is this 'compatibilist free-will'?

Just saying what the text says it was His predetermined plan.. Acts 2:23 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the DEFINITE PLAN AND FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, you cru,ified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God and does use the actions of sinful men to bring the Glory to Christ, using sinful man as a tool to fulfill His will does not make Him a partaker. But overall i think ur getting it. The armenians believe in libertarian free will which is wrought with philosophial problems.
 
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Shiloh1-49-10

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We agree since Adam and Eve did sin before becoming being sinners you can sin before becoming a sinner, so does that not mean our “nature” would not have to change?

No I would not say that. A & E became sinners the moment they sinned; it was one and the same moment. The same way we close our eyes when we blink, the one doesn't precede the other. Not so for you and me though. We are 'sinners' at the moment of conception and if delivered (after 9 months) will not only go on to sin, but to delight in it. That's our nature. And it explains why Christ said "Ye must be born again".

There is an added problem here: If Adam and Eve had some better “nature” then we have today that would not be fair and just of God, yet God is totally fair and just?

The vessel that came fresh from the Potter's hands was not marred. It became marred when something from the outside was introduced (sin)...and the offspring from that vessel was marred as well.


God needed to address one big question everyone seems to ask at least some time in their life: “How could a Loving God allow _____ to happen?”

The simple answer is this: If God were to have a creature with whom He could commune while "walking in the garden in the cool of the day", He must give that creature the capacity to obey/disobey Him in and of himself; otherwise there could be no such true fellowship.


That goes back to the Parable of the wicked Servant (Matt. 18) which I have been trying to get you to address. As you say: “…a pardon refused is no pardon at all”. In the Parable of Matt 18 the servant never asked for forgiveness (pardon) but just time to pay the (unbelievable huge) debt back and went on to say he “would pay it back”.

As I suggested before...do not make the mistake of building a doctrine around a parable...even the beautiful types such as Joseph and Isaac fall short of presenting the full picture alluded to. As to gaining Salvation, there is no possibility you or I could pay any of the great debt we owe.

The Father allowed the prodigal son to reach the very bottom, bring him to his senses, so did sin help in that case?

No, sin did not 'help', it hindered. It was the sin of wanton self-centeredness that got the young son into trouble; it was a troubled conscience, a repugnance of his current situation, and a pleasant memory of a loving father that brought him to repentence. Sin doesen't bring anyone to repentance; it is the realized terribleness of sin and a desire to be shed of it that brings one to seek for a deliverance.
 
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Shiloh1-49-10

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Just saying what the text says it was His predetermined plan.. Acts 2:23 23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the DEFINITE PLAN AND FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, you cru,ified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God and does use the actions of sinful men to bring the Glory to Christ, using sinful man as a tool to fulfill His will does not make Him a partaker. But overall i think ur getting it. The armenians believe in libertarian free will which is wrought with philosophial problems.

Agreed. Thanks.
 
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Rick Otto

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Although I don't technicaly believe in free will, in honor of all my Pelagian friends, I do accept free-will donations.;)
Simon, is secondary causation being the source of personal responsibility part of a compatabilist position?
Explain if you will, how predestination (even hard determinism) doesn't shift responsibility off ourselves & onto God.
I'm not very good at it.:sorry::blush:
 
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simonthezealot

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Simon, is secondary causation being the source of personal responsibility part of a compatabilist position?
I would say yes, Augustine called it dual or double truth...
 
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