DO We Have Free Will?

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Did Adam and Eve before sinning “live in a state of sin”?
No, they were in a state of Innocence, knowing neither good or evil.

You say: “He does not have to "do sins" in order to better warrant the love or forgiveness of God.” So you feel an unborn fetus is guilty of sinning and needs forgiveness?
No, an unborn fetus cannot sin, but yes it still required the death of Christ to 'fit it', I'll say, for the presence of God. I'll explain below.

People are “sinners” because they sin and not because they “inherited” something from Adam and Eve or is it fair and just for God to judge a fetus guilty of sin?

No, I disagree. People sin because they are sinners. This is a most emancipating truth and many Christians fail to see it or believe it. Let me explain, by illustration. Let's say the parents of the unborn fetus are Chinese. That makes the fetus Chinese whether its born or not; it's Chinese DNA is stamped on every cell of its body and nothing can change that. Like wise you and I, as embryos, then fetuses, then infants are born with the same fallen, sinful nature as our first parents. We are stamped too. We are born 'sinners' even though we as yet have not 'committed sins'...but we soon will, because we have that nature. As Adam and Eve were driven from the presence of God, so were all mankind [for we were yet in the loins of our father Adam] for having the same nature we could not be in God's presence...the wages of sin [note, not sins here] is death...until the death of Christ [for us] opened again the way back to God. A little more after the next question.


Did God/Christ ever forgive sins before Christ went to the cross?
No, not really. Men such as Abraham were counted righteous because they believed God but All sin and sins were dealth with at the Cross. For those before the cross we say their sins were covered (in type the blood of the sacrifice was applied) but since the cross we say our sins are washed away, removed (thus we don't need the sacrifices any more).


Are you saying God is not Loving enough or not powerful enough to say “Aw, forget it”? Or is it us that do not want Him to say that and it is for our sake God makes sin creates such a huge debt?

How can I put this simply? God's nature is such that He cannot admit sin (or a sinner still in his sins) into His presence. Remember the wedding story and the guest who came in without a wedding garment? In those days it was customary for the Host to provide such for each guest. He came in without one. No one can come into God's presence without the "cloak of righteousness" that He alone provides. But He pays or has paid the price for such a garment. The wages of sin is death. God can't say forget about it...the wage Must be paid, and paid it was by His blessed Son. But if any reject the Son, the wage is not paid, and so the question, "What are you doing here without a wedding garment?"

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Is the Spiritual Kingdom like some earthly Kingdom or is it almost a contrast to an earthly Kingdom with the King serving His subjects and moving in with them. When Jesus dwelled among us was He showing us the way the Father is and rules?

All good questions, Bling, but I'd prefer to have only one string going if you don't mind; otherwise, things then to become too ponderous. Later.

 

[bling]

No, they were in a state of Innocence, knowing neither good or evil.

No, an unborn fetus cannot sin, but yes it still required the death of Christ to 'fit it', I'll say, for the presence of God. I'll explain below.


No, I disagree. People sin because they are sinners. This is a most emancipating truth and many Christians fail to see it or believe it. Let me explain, by illustration. Let's say the parents of the unborn fetus are Chinese. That makes the fetus Chinese whether its born or not; it's Chinese DNA is stamped on every cell of its body and nothing can change that. Like wise you and I, as embryos, then fetuses, then infants are born with the same fallen, sinful nature as our first parents. We are stamped too. We are born 'sinners' even though we as yet have not 'committed sins'...but we soon will, because we have that nature. As Adam and Eve were driven from the presence of God, so were all mankind [for we were yet in the loins of our father Adam] for having the same nature we could not be in God's presence...the wages of sin [note, not sins here] is death...until the death of Christ [for us] opened again the way back to God. A little more after the next question.

You say: “People sin because they are sinners.” Yet you just got through saying Adam and Eve was innocent when they sinned, so why would we have to be sinners first?

First off the Bible does not say “Adam and Eve fell”, they sinned like we sin but when your child sins for the first time do you call it a “fall”?

We know “knowledge of Good and evil” came down to us but where does it say the “nature” of Adam and Eve changed since it only talks about knowledge changing?

There are a lot of changes that come to Adam and Eve that have continued on to us today, but are those changes in our best interest?

Answer me this simple question: Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with god was dependent on your personal ability to obey (the Garden before sinning) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with god is dependent on your accepting his forgiveness (where we are today)?

No, not really. Men such as Abraham were counted righteous because they believed God but All sin and sins were dealth with at the Cross. For those before the cross we say their sins were covered (in type the blood of the sacrifice was applied) but since the cross we say our sins are washed away, removed (thus we don't need the sacrifices any more).

Lev. 4 talks about God forgiving unintentional sins after an atoning sacrifice was made. Atonement under the Old Testament for intentional sins was not available.

Number 14: 20 The Lord replied, “I have forgiven them, as you asked.

2 Chron. 7: 14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

Matt. 9: 2 Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”

How can I put this simply? God's nature is such that He cannot admit sin (or a sinner still in his sins) into His presence. Remember the wedding story and the guest who came in without a wedding garment? In those days it was customary for the Host to provide such for each guest. He came in without one. No one can come into God's presence without the "cloak of righteousness" that He alone provides. But He pays or has paid the price for such a garment. The wages of sin is death. God can't say forget about it...the wage Must be paid, and paid it was by His blessed Son. But if any reject the Son, the wage is not paid, and so the question, "What are you doing here without a wedding garment?"

Jesus (deity) hung around lots of big time sinners?

I think you are taking the wedding feast parable about the garments out of context. The garments were free to use, but you still had to put them on. The person did not have to earn or do anything to be at this huge charitable feast, but the person could not refuse the charity of the Master.

This still makes the “problem” out to be God’s problem with sin. Maybe God needs to read the book “I’m OK and your OK”. Sin is our problem and problems are really opportunities. Sin has purpose for the nonbeliever.

Sin is made to be such a huge deal for our sake, so when we are forgiven of this huge debt we will Love much “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” We are forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt, so we love unbelievably great (Godly type Love). This Love is what we need.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

You say: “People sin because they are sinners.” Yet you just got through saying Adam and Eve was innocent when they sinned, so why would we have to be sinners first?

Adam and Eve were innocent BEFORE thy sinned. They knew neither good nor evil...truly had "free choice" and Eve was deceived into making the wrong choice and she, in turn, gave to her husband who knew the difference, but disobeyed anyway. Once they did there was no going back. Not only they but all mankind to come, and the whole creation, 'fell' (Romans 8, Mt.19:28). ['Fell' is a simple word to describe this event]


We know “knowledge of Good and evil” came down to us but where does it say the “nature” of Adam and Eve changed since it only talks about knowledge changing?

"As by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin"
"For if through the offence of one [Adam] many be dead"
"For if by one man's [Adam's] offence death reigned by one [Adam]"
""Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men".
All above from Romans 5, but there's more. Adam and Eve were not put into the world to die, but to live everlastingly upon the earth. Death and their being subject to it (a natural change wouldn't you say?) came in when they sinned...and sin and death was passed on to all their descendents unless...

Answer me this simple question: Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with god was dependent on your personal ability to obey (the Garden before sinning) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with god is dependent on your accepting his forgiveness (where we are today)?

Good question. The first option has long been forfeited, but the second is by far the better for it brings us into a relationship based upon the love and sovereignty of God. God could have closed the scene when man sinned; instead, He overruled Satan's plan by introducing a way in which 'fallen' man and all creation could be brought back 'into paradise'...He would give His own Son to pay the wage demanded by sin...death...and "in the fulness of time, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman"...interesting, isn't it? And Amazing. But don't let all this lead you into believing that it was God's plan that man should sin...that grace might abound. That thought is condemned elsewhere.



Jesus (deity) hung around lots of big time sinners?
Yes. And isn't that also amazing? I do not pretend to 'know' the answer to this situation...Holy ground here and I walk with unshod feet. The prophet Habakkuk wrote of 'O Lord my God' this, "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity". When the Lord Jesus took on him humanity (covering, it seems, His divinity...note the garden scene) He was able to be among men, all sinners, yet He Himself sin apart. How? Don't know. But God must be able to deal with sinners as they all will stand before at the great white throne and be judged...so I think "having communion or fellowship" with sin might be more the thought. "For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" 2 Cor.6


Sin is our problem and problems are really opportunities. Sin has purpose for the nonbeliever.
This is a world view, Not God's. You only have to mediate on the agony of Gethsamene and contemplate the Why of sweat like great drops of blood flowing down to get a tiny glimpse of what it was for Christ to become the sin-bearer. He paid for every one. And you think God would have us commit more so that grace might abound?? Whatever you do, do not promote that doctrine. It would only add to Christ's afflictions.



Sin is made to be such a huge deal for our sake, so when we are forgiven of this huge debt we will Love much “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” We are forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt, so we love unbelievably great (Godly type Love). This Love is what we need.
I needn't say more than I said above. Do you not realize that at this very moment every single human being upon the face of this earth is (or can be, the work is done)FORGIVEN his or her debt because of what Christ has suffered? They only have to confess their need of it. All have a PARDON right now offered them but do "they love much"? No? Why not, they are forgiven much? Because they don't believe they need it, therfore don't want it, and a pardon refused is no pardon at all. They reject the gift and thus the Giver and are still in their sins. Their sins are not "an opportunity" but a sentence, a sentence of death should they continue on the course they're on. This is the gospel.

 

[sunlover1]

This is a world view, Not God's. You only have to mediate on the agony of Gethsamene and contemplate the Why of sweat like great drops of blood flowing down to get a tiny glimpse of what it was for Christ to become the sin-bearer. He paid for every one. And you think God would have us commit more so that grace might abound?? Whatever you do, do not promote that doctrine. It would only add to Christ's afflictions.

 

[Giver]

There is nothing in scripture about God owing satan anything. Satan might be “Loved” by God the same as all those that go to hell are Loved by God, but God does not owe any of them anything.

Satan has a purpose in helping man fulfill man’s objective or He would not be left around (man need’s satan, but God does not). God uses satan to do what God cannot do directly for the benefit of man.

Who could have made Satan the prince of the world, if not God?

(Ephesians 2-2) “ As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”

How could Satan have offered Jesus the kingdoms of the world if they were not his?

(Matthew 4:8-10) “Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’

 

[simonthezealot]

God may not ordain that one of His children sin, but scripture clearly states that the actions of sinful men are His pre-determined plan...
It's called compatibilist free-will...

This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

God certainly wills that evil men sin, and is not responsible because the unregenerate mans intent is always evil, to quote our friend Jesse the cross was not plan B or God's response to mans foul up.

 

[Giver]

God may not ordain that one of His children sin, but scripture clearly states that the actions of sinful men are His pre-determined plan...
It's called compatibilist free-will...

This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

God certainly wills that evil men sin, and is not responsible because the unregenerate mans intent is always evil, to quote our friend Jesse the cross was not plan B or God's response to mans foul up.

Show us such scripture.

 

[simonthezealot]

We are given the freedom by which a human chooses from and does what he most wants to from the deepest desires of his heart and that very decision is compatible with God's; oversight, control, and ordination...

 

[simonthezealot]

Show us such scripture.

LOL you miss these?


This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.

 

[bling]

Who could have made Satan the prince of the world, if not God?

God did not want His people to have a king.

The ruler is the being the people are following, so if they follow satan then satan is the king.

So what purpose does satan serve for God?

 

[simonthezealot]

Genesis 45:4-8

4 Then Joseph said to his brothers, “Come close to me.” When they had done so, he said, “I am your brother Joseph, the one YOU SOLD into Egypt! 5 And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that GOD SENT me ahead of you. 6 For two years now there has been famine in the land, and for the next five years there will be no plowing and reaping. 7 But GOD SENT me ahead of you to preserve for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance.
(here's the kicker)>>>8 "SO THEN, IT WAS NOT YOU WHO SENT ME HERE, BUT GOD. He made me father to Pharaoh, lord of his entire household and ruler of all Egypt.

 

[simonthezealot]

Acts 2:23
23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the DEFINITE PLAN AND FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 4:27
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever YOUR HAND AND YOUR PLAN had predestined to take place.

 

[RisingSpirit]

God isn't the "Supreme Being" if He has to yield to human decisions

 

[Giver]

God did not want His people to have a king.

The ruler is the being the people are following, so if they follow satan then satan is the king.

So what purpose does satan serve for God?

Jesus gave Satan power to rule the world, again ask Jesus why he did that?

The following verse tells one that if he or she does not obey God, then they are obeying Satan.

(Ephesians 2-2) “ As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”

 

[bling]

Adam and Eve were innocent BEFORE thy sinned. They knew neither good nor evil...truly had "free choice" and Eve was deceived into making the wrong choice and she, in turn, gave to her husband who knew the difference, but disobeyed anyway. Once they did there was no going back. Not only they but all mankind to come, and the whole creation, 'fell' (Romans 8, Mt.19:28). ['Fell' is a simple word to describe this event]

"As by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin"
"For if through the offence of one [Adam] many be dead"
"For if by one man's [Adam's] offence death reigned by one [Adam]"
""Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men".
All above from Romans 5, but there's more. Adam and Eve were not put into the world to die, but to live everlastingly upon the earth. Death and their being subject to it (a natural change wouldn't you say?) came in when they sinned...and sin and death was passed on to all their descendents unless...

We agree since Adam and Eve did sin before becoming being sinners you can sin before becoming a sinner, so does that not mean our “nature” would not have to change?

You bring up verses and we could all a lot more, which shows the change between Adam& Eve and all humans after which includes:

Physical death, spiritual death, lots of ways to sin, limited resources, hurting people, tragedies of all kinds, heaven and hell as an alternative, Christ going to the cross, and the indwelling Holy Spirit for those that accept God’s help (verses a physical deity walking with them in the evening), but all that does not mean our human nature changed so what talks about that changing?

There is an added problem here: If Adam and Eve had some better “nature” then we have today that would not be fair and just of God, yet God is totally fair and just?

Good question. The first option has long been forfeited, but the second is by far the better for it brings us into a relationship based upon the love and sovereignty of God. God could have closed the scene when man sinned; instead, He overruled Satan's plan by introducing a way in which 'fallen' man and all creation could be brought back 'into paradise'...He would give His own Son to pay the wage demanded by sin...death...and "in the fulness of time, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman"...interesting, isn't it? And Amazing. But don't let all this lead you into believing that it was God's plan that man should sin...that grace might abound. That thought is condemned elsewhere.

You did well. The conclusion is not at all “man should sin...that grace might abound”, but that man should sin (creating an unbelievable huge debt) so man could be forgiveness (at a huge cost to God) and with that forgiveness “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” man will automatically obtain an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love), but that is not so he will throw salt into the wounds of Christ by sinning more, but so man will respond out of pure gratitude.

We (and Adam & Eve) can learn a ton of stuff from the Garden, but God needed to address one big question everyone seems to ask at least some time in their life: “How could a Loving God allow _____ to happen?” What they are really asking is for a Garden type situation where there are no tragedies, hardship, death or limited resources. So one of the big thinks we (plus Adam & Eve) learn is the Garden situation is a lousy place for man to fulfill his objective.

Yes. And isn't that also amazing? I do not pretend to 'know' the answer to this situation...Holy ground here and I walk with unshod feet. The prophet Habakkuk wrote of 'O Lord my God' this, "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity". When the Lord Jesus took on him humanity (covering, it seems, His divinity...note the garden scene) He was able to be among men, all sinners, yet He Himself sin apart. How? Don't know. But God must be able to deal with sinners as they all will stand before at the great white throne and be judged...so I think "having communion or fellowship" with sin might be more the thought. "For what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?" 2 Cor.6

This is a world view, Not God's. You only have to mediate on the agony of Gethsamene and contemplate the Why of sweat like great drops of blood flowing down to get a tiny glimpse of what it was for Christ to become the sin-bearer. He paid for every one. And you think God would have us commit more so that grace might abound?? Whatever you do, do not promote that doctrine. It would only add to Christ's afflictions.

We already agree: “…but the second is by far the better for it brings us into a relationship based upon the love and sovereignty of God.” The second includes sinning.

I needn't say more than I said above. Do you not realize that at this very moment every single human being upon the face of this earth is (or can be, the work is done)FORGIVEN his or her debt because of what Christ has suffered? They only have to confess their need of it. All have a PARDON right now offered them but do "they love much"? No? Why not, they are forgiven much? Because they don't believe they need it, therfore don't want it, and a pardon refused is no pardon at all. They reject the gift and thus the Giver and are still in their sins. Their sins are not "an opportunity" but a sentence, a sentence of death should they continue on the course they're on. This is the gospel.

That goes back to the Parable of the wicked Servant (Matt. 18) which I have been trying to get you to address. As you say: “…a pardon refused is no pardon at all”. In the Parable of Matt 18 the servant never asked for forgiveness (pardon) but just time to pay the (unbelievable huge) debt back and went on to say he “would pay it back”. God wants to forgive everyone and has arranged it so we can be forgiven, but that means humbly accepting pure charity and most people will do almost anything to avoid accepting charity, just like the wicked servant. Like you say when charity (pardon) is not humbly accepted it does not happen.

The Father allowed the prodigal son to reach the very bottom, bring him to his senses, so did sin help in that case?

 

[bling]

God isn't the "Supreme Being" if He has to yield to human decisions

Is it Loving to force a mature adult to do something against his will if he has the knowledge information and time to make his own decision?

 

[bling]

Jesus gave Satan power to rule the world, again ask Jesus why he did that?

The following verse tells one that if he or she does not obey God, then they are obeying Satan.

(Ephesians 2-2) “ As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.”

I have no problem understanding the purpose of satan roaming the earth, but I was wondering what you thought the purpose was.

 

[bling]

Acts 2:23
23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the DEFINITE PLAN AND FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Acts 4:27
for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28to do whatever YOUR HAND AND YOUR PLAN had predestined to take place.

In all your verses there seems to be things God plans and executes and some things man is responsible for, so where men responsible for crucifying Christ?

 

[RisingSpirit]

Is it Loving to force a mature adult to do something against his will if he has the knowledge information and time to make his own decision?

Man doesn't want the good things so it's not agaist the will of man if he doesn't want God. God creating the entire life plan of a single man isn’t forcing. It's called created bu His Own Pleasure. If you write a book, you planned it out in your head and you didn't force anything cause that is what you saw in your mind to write down on paper.

You are the author of your own book like God is the author of His Own wills.