DO We Have Free Will?

[Rick Otto]

Thanks Bill. I'm inclined to agree with you on this. I think anyway. Unregenerate man has no such power of choice so that it is said that even "the plowing of the wicked is sin".* But the redeemed have a new nature, the Spirit dwelling within, giving him the power to make a 'good' choice, though not decreeing that he must.

yup!
*1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Hawisher]

Of course we don't. The only things that go into our decisions are our soul, which does not change except through and by Christ, and our circumstances, which are themselves a deterministic result of previous actions that are themselves a result of soul+circumstances.

This in no way absolves us of fault for our actions, though. Our sins are merely a product of our fallible souls rather than our fallible choice.

 

[Giver]

God does everything even sending Adam and Eve out of the Garden after sinning to help them and others. Answer me this briefly:

Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey (the garden before sin) or would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your accepting God’s charity in the form of forgiveness (where we are today)?



The scripture you give apply to Christians and not to the unbeliever since the unbeliever cannot do anything of “value”.

The unbeliever cannot “chose” to live in the spirit since that would be a noble choice, all the unbeliever can do is wimp out, surrender to the enemy, give up on self.

You seem to have a hard time understanding what God wants from us. You have some teaching, I am sure, that need to be done away with before you can come to an understanding.

I believe until you drop the teaching about God that have come from man or Satan, you will never understand.

(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies--------------“

 

[bling]

Do you fully realize what it is you are saying here? I'm certain you've considered what Paul penned in Rom.6:1-2 regarding this very question: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid." How can you say such a thing in light of such a plain verse condemning it?

Yes, I am very familiar with Paul’s writing, but Paul is addressing specifically the Jewish and Gentile Christians in Rome and not non-Christians. Christians have no reason to go on sinning, but what about non-Christians going on sinning and finally ending up like the prodigal son starving while feeding swine in a pigsty?

Taken to the extreme, if what you say above were true, then scripture would be condoning, if not promoting, the most heinous of crimes. It may be true that one who is a great sinner, when brought to a genuine repentance, may well be far more grateful for huis forgiveness than one od the 'rank and and file', say, but nowwhere in scripture do we get the promotion of sin that grace (or love) might abound.

I am certainly not promoting Christians sinning, yet you seem to be misunderstanding me the same way Paul was misunderstood for his teaching by Christians and had to specifically address the issue, so does that suggest I might be presenting the same message as Paul?

The father in the story of the Prodigal son would have kept up with His son and known what he would do with the money he gave him. The Father could have sent servants after the son, but did not. Was the father guilty of promoting sinful behavior in His son?

Jesus could have easily kept Peter from denying Him, so why did Jesus allow Peter to do it?
I am to try and keep people from hurting themselves and others, but I cannot keep people from sinning if they want to sin. I am to help them come to their senses, see the where they are, what got them there and where they are going to make the decision to seek God’s help and help them fulfill their desire.

“the rank and file” you talk about before becoming Christians were just as bad as the “big time sinner”, but just do not realize it.

God's love is indeed unconditional in the sense that we have no 'conditions' to meet in order to come to Him for forgiveness, but let's not make the mistake that His love will pass over sin. Remember, God is absolutely righteous, and before John brings out the truth that "God is Love", he lays the foundation that, first and foremost "God is Light". Study the cities of Refuge that were established for those who took someone's life in the OT; they were no source of escape for those whose deeds were premediated. One cannot 'plan to sin' and then expect that God will pass over it just because He loves unconditionally.

I could write a book on atonement, but that is another subject.

What is your concept of “God is light”? For me, it seems to be in contrast to darkness? Is Love and Light complementary of each other, so where do you see the confect?

May I answer? Sin is the problem. We all sin and it is our sins that separate us from God, and will do so for eternity UNLESS washed in the Blood of the Lamb, as the familiar song puts it.

If you have the easy answer to the problem why is it still a problem?

Is not ever sinning the “objective” of man, because if it is we all fail our objective?

Does sin provide a meaningful purpose for the non-believer, that helps him to become a believer, since it can burdens him, provide even a death blow to his heart, softening his heart, turn him to seek God’s help in the form of forgiveness?

God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all. He cannot deny Himself. He could not 'quench His own desire' and cause man to sin for that would, in effect, be denying Himself. He is not the author of sin, Satan is.

Did the father of the prodigal son allow the son having money he did not deserve for his sinning? Do you think the father (representing God) would not know how his son would use the money?

Do you see it as God’s desire to have His Son tortured, humiliated and murdered?

Did Christ (deity) deny himself (quench his own desires) and allow Himself to be tortured, humiliated and murdered?

If Christ can and did deny Himself for us and the Father, why do you think God cannot?

God is not the author of sin, but does that mean God cannot use sin or in fact use satan?

 

[bling]

If so how would you explain the 5th commandment: "Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor worship them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God", Ex. 20:5?

How is God jealous of a piece of wood or a rock?

God is “jealous” for our sake, the same as you do not want your children running after evil, for their sake.

Simon made a correct assumption about which debtor would love most when he stated in Luke 7:43, "I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most". It was the woman, not Simon, who recognized how great a debtor she was and her appreciation of forgiveness matched her own felt debt. Simon felt no such debt even though he was as great a debtor as she.
But do not base your doctrine on one example of scripture. Have you noticed the exact opposite in the story of the 10,000 pence debtor in Mt.18:23-35. His lord forgave him all but what did he do to his own servant who owed him but 100 pence? He didn't love much. He cast him into prison "till he should pay the debt". Thus, it is not always the case that "he that is forgiven much will love much".

Can we start with what we do agree with in this parable, just let me know yes or no:

1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?

2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?

3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?

4. The wicked servant is a sinner?

5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?

6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?

7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?

8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?

If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?


This Parable come out of what is on the hearts of the apostles right after Jesus completes His answer.

So first you have to figure out what the disciples are going to be thinking with Jesus’ answer?

I would suggest: when Jesus says 7 times 70 or 77 they are thinking: “WOW!! How Can we keep from being taken advantage of by our brothers if we are just going to keep forgiving them every time?” (People always think about how it will impact themselves.)

 

[Giver]

Yes, I am very familiar with Paul’s writing, but Paul is addressing specifically the Jewish and Gentile Christians in Rome and not non-Christians. Christians have no reason to go on sinning, but what about non-Christians going on sinning and finally ending up like the prodigal son starving while feeding swine in a pigsty?

I am certainly not promoting Christians sinning, yet you seem to be misunderstanding me the same way Paul was misunderstood for his teaching by Christians and had to specifically address the issue, so does that suggest I might be presenting the same message as Paul?

The father in the story of the Prodigal son would have kept up with His son and known what he would do with the money he gave him. The Father could have sent servants after the son, but did not. Was the father guilty of promoting sinful behavior in His son?

Jesus could have easily kept Peter from denying Him, so why did Jesus allow Peter to do it?
I am to try and keep people from hurting themselves and others, but I cannot keep people from sinning if they want to sin. I am to help them come to their senses, see the where they are, what got them there and where they are going to make the decision to seek God’s help and help them fulfill their desire.

“the rank and file” you talk about before becoming Christians were just as bad as the “big time sinner”, but just do not realize it.
I could write a book on atonement, but that is another subject.

What is your concept of “God is light”? For me, it seems to be in contrast to darkness? Is Love and Light complementary of each other, so where do you see the confect?
If you have the easy answer to the problem why is it still a problem?

Is not ever sinning the “objective” of man, because if it is we all fail our objective?

Does sin provide a meaningful purpose for the non-believer, that helps him to become a believer, since it can burdens him, provide even a death blow to his heart, softening his heart, turn him to seek God’s help in the form of forgiveness?





Did the father of the prodigal son allow the son having money he did not deserve for his sinning? Do you think the father (representing God) would not know how his son would use the money?

Do you see it as God’s desire to have His Son tortured, humiliated and murdered?

Did Christ (deity) deny himself (quench his own desires) and allow Himself to be tortured, humiliated and murdered?

If Christ can and did deny Himself for us and the Father, why do you think God cannot?

God is not the author of sin, but does that mean God cannot use sin or in fact use satan?

God loves us. God loved Satan, and Satan disobeyed God. God sent Satan out of the kingdom of God, and then he will send Satan to Hell.

 

[bling]

You seem to have a hard time understanding what God wants from us. You have some teaching, I am sure, that need to be done away with before you can come to an understanding.

I believe until you drop the teaching about God that have come from man or Satan, you will never understand.

(1 Corinthians 2:10-16) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God. Now instead of the spirit of the world, we have received the Spirit that comes from God, to teach us to understand the gifts that he has given us. Therefore we teach, not in the way in which philosophy is taught, but in the way that the Spirit teaches us: we teach spiritual things spiritually. A spiritual man, on the other hand, is able to judge the value of everything and his own value in not to be judged by other men. As scripture says;’ who can know the mind of the Lord, so who can teach him?’ But we are those who have the mind of Christ.”

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies--------------“

If all you are going to do is make a personal attack on me I do not think we can learn together?

If you would address my questions I will address yours and we can move along.

 

[bling]

God loves us. God loved Satan, and Satan disobeyed God. God sent Satan out of the kingdom of God, and then he will send Satan to Hell.

Why does God allow satan to roam the earth with us now?

 

[Giver]

If all you are going to do is make a personal attack on me I do not think we can learn together?

If you would address my questions I will address yours and we can move along.

How is quoting a verse in scripture that contradicts what you posted an personal attack on you.

I used scripture to rebuke what you said, is that wrong?

 

[Giver]

Why does God allow satan to roam the earth with us now?

That is a question that can only fully be answered by God, so ask him.

My understanding is that because God loved Satan so much he allowed him time. God, I believe made promises to Satan, and as to why he made those promises I don’t know; other then out of his love for Satan.

I know that because of the promises God made to Satan is why we are so tormented by Satan. God made Satan the ruler of the world, and he has some powers we do not have. God became man so then he could over come Satan’s power over us, and we now through Jesus can defeat Satan/sin.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Thanks for responding. However, you've heard the phrase "Too much Bling"...I'll apply it this way. You say so many interesting things that I want to respond to them all. But can't. So let's deal with an issue or two at a time, at most. That find with you?

I cannot keep people from sinning if they want to sin.

I think you misunderstand this point: Everything the unregenerate (unsaved) man does is sin. Why? Because he is living in a state of 'sin'; that's why even "the plowing of the wicked is sin". Scripture says that "whatsoever is not of faith is sin". The unsaved man has no faith (in God) in any thing he does. Thus he lives in a state of 'sin'. He does not have to "do sins" in order to better warrant the love or forgiveness of God. He must come to realize he is a 'sinner' now before God in everything he does because he has left God out of the equation. That's the fallen state of man.


What is your concept of “God is light”? For me, it seems to be in contrast to darkness? Is Love and Light complementary of each other, so where do you see the confect?

Here's an illustration. You do me a wrong. I can say "Aw, forget about it". I can do that. God can not. Why not? I am a sinner just like you, but my saying "aw, forget about it" satisfies me, and you, but doesn't cancel the sin. It's just passed over. God is Light. Holy. Righteous. Just. He cannot pass over sin. Every sin must be paid for, by the atoning blood of His Son or by our forever banishment from His presence. So here's the conflict: God verily loves every one of us but if we fail to receive His atonement he cannot 'pass over' our sins and have us in His presence. He is Light first, then Love. [This also explains why God has to reveal to our souls our lost condition that we might feel the weight of our debt {light}, before He reveals His Love, but this need not be separate movements].

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

God is the first cause. All knowing & all mighty, He either causes or allows others to cause things to happen. Nothing can exist or happen unless an all mighty all knowing God wills it. Being willing to go to work & desiring to go to work are not always the same thing.

Thanks for the response. Agree with what you said but would like further thought on the above. I don't know if I can go along with your middle sentence. Do you really think that God 'willed' there'd be sin or 'desired' it?

 

[HawkBlue27]

God only has one will.

 

[Rev Randy]

God only has one will.

Amen. And it is not for us to sin but to love Him with all our heart.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

How is God jealous of a piece of wood or a rock?

God is “jealous” for our sake, the same as you do not want your children running after evil, for their sake.

I know what you're saying Bling...that God wants only the very best, and that for us. Yet the blessings cannot be divorced from the Blesser. He must have first place, and He is jealous of that, He must have the preeminence. It becomes us to worship, not ourselves or anything else, but Him, and He has so directed us. This does not mean He is self-exalting; He simply IS the great I AM. We MUST bow the knee and the tongue Must confess that He is Lord...otherwise there is no blessing. He cannot deny who He IS.


Put simply, the Lord seems to use parables to illustrate certain points, not that we can or should build a doctrine upon them. The story of Mt. 18 and the 10,000/100 pence debtors is one of these. It does indeed illustrate how much we have been forgiven with respect to what the Lord asks us to forgive our fellow man for. No matter what man does to us it would only amount, as it were, to 100 pence, but who of us can ascertain the pence-value, so to speak, of sins forgiven? What would you and I pay, if we could pay, to escape an eternity of abandonment from God? 10,000 pence would be a bargain. I've had toothaches I would have paid a princely sum to be rid of at the time.

 

[seeking Christ]

God only has one will.

His last will and testament, in the blood of Christ

 

[bling]

How is quoting a verse in scripture that contradicts what you posted an personal attack on you.

I used scripture to rebuke what you said, is that wrong?

This is what you said I am referring to:
"You seem to have a hard time understanding what God wants from us. You have some teaching, I am sure, that need to be done away with before you can come to an understanding.

I believe until you drop the teaching about God that have come from man or Satan, you will never understand."

 

[bling]

That is a question that can only fully be answered by God, so ask him.

My understanding is that because God loved Satan so much he allowed him time. God, I believe made promises to Satan, and as to why he made those promises I don’t know; other then out of his love for Satan.

I know that because of the promises God made to Satan is why we are so tormented by Satan. God made Satan the ruler of the world, and he has some powers we do not have. God became man so then he could over come Satan’s power over us, and we now through Jesus can defeat Satan/sin.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

There is nothing in scripture about God owing satan anything. Satan might be “Loved” by God the same as all those that go to hell are Loved by God, but God does not owe any of them anything.

Satan has a purpose in helping man fulfill man’s objective or He would not be left around (man need’s satan, but God does not). God uses satan to do what God cannot do directly for the benefit of man.

 

[bling]

I think you misunderstand this point: Everything the unregenerate (unsaved) man does is sin. Why? Because he is living in a state of 'sin'; that's why even "the plowing of the wicked is sin". Scripture says that "whatsoever is not of faith is sin". The unsaved man has no faith (in God) in any thing he does. Thus he lives in a state of 'sin'. He does not have to "do sins" in order to better warrant the love or forgiveness of God. He must come to realize he is a 'sinner' now before God in everything he does because he has left God out of the equation. That's the fallen state of man.

Did Adam and Eve before sinning “live in a state of sin”?
You say: “He does not have to "do sins" in order to better warrant the love or forgiveness of God.” So you feel an unborn fetus is guilty of sinning and needs forgiveness?
People are “sinners” because they sin and not because they “inherited” something from Adam and Eve or is it fair and just for God to judge a fetus guilty of sin?

Here's an illustration. You do me a wrong. I can say "Aw, forget about it". I can do that. God can not. Why not? I am a sinner just like you, but my saying "aw, forget about it" satisfies me, and you, but doesn't cancel the sin. It's just passed over. God is Light. Holy. Righteous. Just. He cannot pass over sin. Every sin must be paid for, by the atoning blood of His Son or by our forever banishment from His presence. So here's the conflict: God verily loves every one of us but if we fail to receive His atonement he cannot 'pass over' our sins and have us in His presence. He is Light first, then Love. [This also explains why God has to reveal to our souls our lost condition that we might feel the weight of our debt {light}, before He reveals His Love, but this need not be separate movements].

Did God/Christ ever forgive sins before Christ went to the cross? Was God’s forgiveness taught by the OT prophets without ever mentioning Jesus?

You say: “He cannot pass over sin.” Which makes it God’s problem and not my problem right? God “needs” help to forgive sins? Are you saying God is not Loving enough or not powerful enough to say “Aw, forget it”? Or is it us that do not want Him to say that and it is for our sake God makes sin creates such a huge debt?

 

[bling]

[
I know what you're saying Bling...that God wants only the very best, and that for us. Yet the blessings cannot be divorced from the Blesser. He must have first place, and He is jealous of that, He must have the preeminence. It becomes us to worship, not ourselves or anything else, but Him, and He has so directed us. This does not mean He is self-exalting; He simply IS the great I AM. We MUST bow the knee and the tongue Must confess that He is Lord...otherwise there is no blessing. He cannot deny who He IS.

You start out agreeing then turn and disagree?

Is the “first place” the servant’s place we are talking about? Is the Spiritual Kingdom like some earthly Kingdom or is it almost a contrast to an earthly Kingdom with the King serving His subjects and moving in with them. When Jesus dwelled among us was He showing us the way the Father is and rules?

Put simply, the Lord seems to use parables to illustrate certain points, not that we can or should build a doctrine upon them. The story of Mt. 18 and the 10,000/100 pence debtors is one of these. It does indeed illustrate how much we have been forgiven with respect to what the Lord asks us to forgive our fellow man for. No matter what man does to us it would only amount, as it were, to 100 pence, but who of us can ascertain the pence-value, so to speak, of sins forgiven? What would you and I pay, if we could pay, to escape an eternity of abandonment from God? 10,000 pence would be a bargain. I've had toothaches I would have paid a princely sum to be rid of at the time.

I think you might be missing the point of the parable since it is answering the unspoken follow up question the apostles had on their hearts, so just address the simple questions I asked:

1. The master is representing God in the Spiritual Kingdom?

2. The “turned him over to the jailers. He would be punished until he paid back everything he owed.” Represents Hell in the spiritual meaning?

3. The millions and millions of dollars represents spiritually the huge debt sin creates?

4. The wicked servant is a sinner?

5. The Master’s forgiveness of the servant’s debt is the same as God’s part in forgiving a sinner’s sins?

6. The servant’s debt was not forgiven, since in the end the master says, he is imprisoned for the debt?

7. The servant is lying when he says “I will pay everything back” since it is totally not possible?

8. The servant was asking for time and not forgiveness and gives no indication He accepted the forgiveness as charity?


If we agree with this we are 90% in agreement. The only question is: “Since the wicked servant still owes the master the huge debt after the master did his part of forgiving the wicked servant, what else must happen for the transaction of forgiveness to be fully completed?