DO We Have Free Will?

[seeking Christ]

Sure, but I like the Sunlover version with creepy in it better

 

[bling]

God allows sin because he wants us to know just how evil sin is. at the end of time he will end sin because we will know how bad it is. God put the tree in and allowed satan in because he wanted to know if we would be loyal to God and we failed he didnt kill them because its there free will to sin. our mission isnt to sin but to prepare the way for jesus to return romans talks about that and God would stop his will if its what he want because he loves us enough to let us be happy with our choices. somewhat like learning the hard way.

You say: “…because he wanted to know if we would be loyal to God and we failed”, I could tell God from my little knowledge of humans that they cannot obey under their own power, so why would God not know this? Does God not “know” prior to any “testing”?

Our “objective” has always been the same and is given as a command “Love God (and secondly others) with all your heart, soul, mind and energy.” The only problem with completing this command is obtaining the unique, extremely powerful Love that would compel such behavior. Obtaining that Love becomes our objective, which is a free unconditional and undeserved gift of God we just have to accept as pure charity (that is what it is). We avoid accepting this charity, because humans do not like to humble themselves enough to accept charity.

 

[bling]

again if not given the choice people could say god isnt fair by allowing this to happen he is being fair and lettingus learn through experience i guess

You might try just answering the questions I asked?

 

[seeking Christ]

[
We can make choices and we do, but we are limted in those choices by things we do not control..... so to that extent we are confined, and not "free".

Man can not choose that which we lack the abilty to do.

This is why we need to define what is meant by "free will," for the purposes of this thread. I would never address it in terms of considering what we cannot do; it just doesn't seem helpful to me. At the same time, what is in the realm of what we CAN do, offers a staggering variety! I think this is at least one primary point of the story of Adam and Eve in the garden.

 

[bling]

If what you said were true then all Christians would be of the devil.

You are not addressing my questions at all, I am talking about sinning before becoming a Christian, so do all mature adults sin?

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work”

A Christian is dead to sin, and will not sin.

(Romans 6: 1-2) “What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

(Romans 6:11) “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus”

You are so wrong!

I am not talking about Christian’s sinning and there is no “benefit” to their sinning, but what about non-Christians?

 

[Giver]

You are not addressing my questions at all, I am talking about sinning before becoming a Christian, so do all mature adults sin?


I am not talking about Christian’s sinning and there is no “benefit” to their sinning, but what about non-Christians?

The Law will judge non-Christians. A spiritual Christian is not under the Law.

Personally what happens to people, who don’t say they are Christian, is not part of my ministry. I was told by God to give a word to those who say they are Christians.

Jesus told us that that Word would judge those who don’t live the Word of God.

I wonder why people can’t understand that what God wants from us is obedience. God did not get obedience from Satan. God loved Satan, but Satan chose to disobey God. Then God made man, and asked man to obey him. Again a creation of God disobeys him.

God then comes and gives man his Spirit so man could then withstand Satan/sin, and be given the grace to obey God. Does man or has man sense obeyed God?

Those people, who do obey God, will be chosen to live in the kingdom of God with God.


(John 14:23) “Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”


Galations 5:13-26)”For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love. For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you go on biting and devouring one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another. I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh. For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ [Jesus] have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.”

 

[bling]

Seeing that Jesus is God, and knew why he wanted to die on the cross, and that it was God’s/Jesus’ will to do so, then yes God wanted to suffer for us. Why is not important for us to know.

Jesus gave me some advice years ago, when he told me audibly; Bob stop trying to figure me out, and just follow me.

Was it God's will to put Adam and Eve out of the Garden or was it God's desire?

 

[bling]

I take exception to your suggestion:

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Di d not say God was tempting them, but there just was no other alternative.

 

[asiyreh]

In response to the topic

I quite fancy the doctrines of calvinism on a theological basis. I hardly ever mention them to the general Christian population anymore though; as it usually tends to make people, gesture around wildly, point fingers at you, attempt to throw "holy water" on you and take other drastic measures such as picking up objects to beat you etc.

I think though if you take a good study through passages such as Romans 8 and 9, Ephesians 1 to 3 you can't reach any other conclusion however.

Knowing it and convincing others is two completely different things though.

 

[bling]

I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spiritf of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, 19and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, 20which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Not sure what this little tangent was written for?

I fully believe Christians are given the power not to sin and after becoming a Christian sin has no purpose in their life. You are addressing “Christians” and not non-Christians in these comments, but we all start out as non-Christians that sin and actually need to sin in order to become Christians?

Well I agree with Frenchfrye's understanding but
also, God already handled sin....
I think that's the main point we should remember,
that we might focus on life rather than how creepy we were.

Look in order to fulfill our earthly objective (obtaining Godly type Love so we can Love God and others with all our heart, soul, mind and energy) we must sin, so we can seek and obtain God’s forgiveness of a huge debt so as Jesus taught and we see in the world “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” That unique huge Love is what we are after and the only way for us is for it to come automatically with forgiveness of a huge debt.

Same reason as Frenchfrye already suggested earlier.
Would you like to have a wife who had NO choice but to be with
you? No choice. She either had to do it your way or no way.
Wouldja feel the love? Might she become bitter and sad?
Or would you that she might have a choice to love you or to walk away?
Which love do you want?
Which love would you desire for her?

God Loves us unconditionally and in spite of what we have done or will do, so that is the way I am to Love my wife and the way I would like her to Love me. It has nothing to do with the way I am and everything to do with the way she is. She is compelled by her Love (in that way her choice is made) to Love me.


You did not address:


1. Is sin a problem or is it only unforgiven sin that is the problem?


2. If it would help man in fulfilling man’s earthly objective to first sin would a Loving God quench His own desire to help man fulfill his objective?

 

[Giver]

Was it God's will to put Adam and Eve out of the Garden or was I God's desire?

Why don’t you ask God that question? Personally I don’t care.

Jesus told us that we were to do the will of the Father. Jesus said the Words he gave came from the Father, and those words were the completion of the Law. So those who don’t live by the Spirit, that is live as the Holy Spirit dictates, will be judged by the Law.

I would say it is a choice to live as the Spirit dictates, or not to live as the Spirit tells one to live. That should tell everyone we have been given a free will to choose.

(Romans 8:1-4) “The reason, therefore, why those who are in Christ Jesus are not condemned, is that the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. God has done what the Law, because of our unspiritual nature, was unable to do. God dealt with sin by sending his own Son in a body as physical as any sinful body, and in that body God condemned sin he did this in order the Law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the spirit dictates.”

Galations 5:13-26)”For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love. For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you go on biting and devouring one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another. I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh. For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ [Jesus] have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.”

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

It is truly unfortunate but for man to fulfill his earth objective, he must sin, so it is God’s will that all mature adults sin and all come through with this need.


Could you brief me as to what you believe to be man's 'earth objective'?...an objective that requires man to sin in order for it to be accomplished...or am I reading you wrong??

 

[Giver]

God loves us unconditionally? Is that true that God loves unconditionally? If that is true then it must be that God loves everyone he knows unconditionally.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

In response to the topic

I quite fancy the doctrines of calvinism on a theological basis.


What exactly is the doctrine of calvinism regarding Free Will? Could you give a brief reply? Thanks.

 

[bling]

Could you brief me as to what you believe to be man's 'earth objective'?...an objective that requires man to sin in order for it to be accomplished...or am I reading you wrong??

If God is this ultimate Lover, than that “Love” would compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all but is totally for the sake of others).

The reason this “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?

Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is our fulfilling our objective.

There are some things that God just cannot do like create a being that was never created and the one important to us is instinctively create us with Godly type Love since that would be robotic type Love. God will also not force his love on us (a shotgun wedding) since that would be unloving on God’s part (there has to be reasonable alternatives to make it a choice [the perceived pleasures of sin]). The easiest way for us to get this Love is through accepting it as a pure charitable gift. The problem being humans (due in part to the needed survival instinct) do not like accepting Charity from a Giver that paid a huge price for the gift.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

Once we accept Godly type Love, we can truly Love and have the privilege and honor of Loving God (the forgiver) and others (God’s children) with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.


This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4).


Since God is “Love” and part of the definition of Godly type Love is unselfishness God is totally unselfish? If God is totally unselfish, He will do and allow all He can to help those that are just willing to accept His help fulfill their objective (Love). That “all” includes: Christ to go to the cross, satan to roam the earth, tragedies of all kind, hell, evil, and even sin.

Will we know people do not like to accept charity especially from a giver that paid a huge price? People will try to earn the gift, pay back the gift, be more deserving of the gift than the next person or just say they got the gift without having to accept it. The easiest way to accept the gift is through accepting God’s forgiveness (this is after you have sinned) since forgiveness is charity, grace, mercy Love. AND Jesus has taught us “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”

The problem is God wants us to be like He is (God’s Love is compelling Him to create beings that can Love like He Loves and made these beings for the sake of those that will accept His Love).

If we continue to refuse God’s Love and really do not want to Love unselfishly, where is there for us to go? Heaven is one huge Love feast so we would not be happy there and God wants us to be happy.

 

[bling]

Why don’t you ask God that question? Personally I don’t care.

God does everything even sending Adam and Eve out of the Garden after sinning to help them and others. Answer me this briefly:

Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey (the garden before sin) or would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your accepting God’s charity in the form of forgiveness (where we are today)?

Jesus told us that we were to do the will of the Father. Jesus said the Words he gave came from the Father, and those words were the completion of the Law. So those who don’t live by the Spirit, that is live as the Holy Spirit dictates, will be judged by the Law.

I would say it is a choice to live as the Spirit dictates, or not to live as the Spirit tells one to live. That should tell everyone we have been given a free will to choose.

(Romans 8:1-4) “The reason, therefore, why those who are in Christ Jesus are not condemned, is that the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. God has done what the Law, because of our unspiritual nature, was unable to do. God dealt with sin by sending his own Son in a body as physical as any sinful body, and in that body God condemned sin he did this in order the Law’s just demands might be satisfied in us, who behave not as our unspiritual nature but as the spirit dictates.”

Galations 5:13-26)”For you were called for freedom, brothers. But do not use this freedom as an opportunity for the flesh; rather, serve one another through love. For the whole law is fulfilled in one statement, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you go on biting and devouring one another, beware that you are not consumed by one another. I say, then: live by the Spirit and you will certainly not gratify the desire of the flesh. For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; these are opposed to each other, so that you may not do what you want. But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law.Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. In contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. Now those who belong to Christ [Jesus] have crucified their flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also follow the Spirit. Let us not be conceited, provoking one another, envious of one another.”

The scripture you give apply to Christians and not to the unbeliever since the unbeliever cannot do anything of “value”.

The unbeliever cannot “chose” to live in the spirit since that would be a noble choice, all the unbeliever can do is wimp out, surrender to the enemy, give up on self.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Sorry, Bling, I hadn't read this far when I made my earlier post. I see now what you mean by our 'earthly objective'...can't agree with though. Mind if I make a few comments on what you said below?? Thanks.

We all start out as non-Christians that sin and actually need to sin in order to become Christians?

Do you fully realize what it is you are saying here? I'm certain you've considered what Paul penned in Rom.6:1-2 regarding this very question: "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid." How can you say such a thing in light of such a plain verse condemning it?


Look in order to fulfill our earthly objective (obtaining Godly type Love so we can Love God and others with all our heart, soul, mind and energy) we must sin, so we can seek and obtain God’s forgiveness of a huge debt so as Jesus taught and we see in the world “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” That unique huge Love is what we are after and the only way for us is for it to come automatically with forgiveness of a huge debt.

Taken to the extreme, if what you say above were true, then scripture would be condoning, if not promoting, the most heinous of crimes. It may be true that one who is a great sinner, when brought to a genuine repentance, may well be far more grateful for huis forgiveness than one od the 'rank and and file', say, but nowwhere in scripture do we get the promotion of sin that grace (or love) might abound.

God Loves us unconditionally and in spite of what we have done or will do, so that is the way I am to Love my wife and the way I would like her to Love me. It has nothing to do with the way I am and everything to do with the way she is. She is compelled by her Love (in that way her choice is made) to Love me.

God's love is indeed unconditional in the sense that we have no 'conditions' to meet in order to come to Him for forgiveness, but let's not make the mistake that His love will pass over sin. Remember, God is absolutely righteous, and before John brings out the truth that "God is Love", he lays the foundation that, first and foremost "God is Light". Study the cities of Refuge that were established for those who took someone's life in the OT; they were no source of escape for those whose deeds were premediated. One cannot 'plan to sin' and then expect that God will pass over it just because He loves unconditionally.


You did not address:


1. Is sin a problem or is it only unforgiven sin that is the problem?

May I answer? Sin is the problem. We all sin and it is our sins that separate us from God, and will do so for eternity UNLESS washed in the Blood of the Lamb, as the familiar song puts it.


2. If it would help man in fulfilling man’s earthly objective to first sin would a Loving God quench His own desire to help man fulfill his objective?

God is Light and in Him is no darkness at all. He cannot deny Himself. He could not 'quench His own desire' and cause man to sin for that would, in effect, be denying Himself. He is not the author of sin, Satan is.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

Good Day,


I will give it a shot...

I will submit that this is the condition of the unregerate man. The basis of the question is about Aam and Eve, and thier state prior to the fall. They un like any of Adama offspring were created with the equal abilty to chosse sin or not. Adam's offpring as a result of the fall have predisposition to sin (our hearts are on evil continully) but in regeration we are give a new heart, and the gift of repentance and faith, and as a result he is our God and we are his people.

In Him,

Bill

Thanks Bill. I'm inclined to agree with you on this. I think anyway. Unregenerate man has no such power of choice so that it is said that even "the plowing of the wicked is sin". But the redeemed have a new nature, the Spirit dwelling within, giving him the power to make a 'good' choice, though not decreeing that he must.

 

[Shiloh1-49-10]

If God is this ultimate Lover, than that “Love” would compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all but is totally for the sake of others).

If so how would you explain the 5th commandment: "Thou shalt not bow down to them, nor worship them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God", Ex. 20:5?


God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.
Amen to that.

God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….)

Simon made a correct assumption about which debtor would love most when he stated in Luke 7:43, "I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most". It was the woman, not Simon, who recognized how great a debtor she was and her appreciation of forgiveness matched her own felt debt. Simon felt no such debt even though he was as great a debtor as she.
But do not base your doctrine on one example of scripture. Have you noticed the exact opposite in the story of the 10,000 pence debtor in Mt.18:23-35. His lord forgave him all but what did he do to his own servant who owed him but 100 pence? He didn't love much. He cast him into prison "till he should pay the debt". Thus, it is not always the case that "he that is forgiven much will love much".

 

[Rick Otto]

In response to the topic

I quite fancy the doctrines of calvinism on a theological basis.


What exactly is the doctrine of calvinism regarding Free Will? Could you give a brief reply? Thanks.

There ain't none.
But there is personal responsibility established by secondary causes.
God is the first cause. All knowing & all mighty, He either causes or allows others to cause things to happen. Nothing can exist or happen unless an all mighty all knowing God wills it. Being willing to go to work & desiring to go to work are not always the same thing.
It is practical to use the term "free will" in everyday conversation because it has a clearly limited application in the sense that 'no one has a gun to our head' (more or less). So it as a term is more about the lack of duress rather than a lack of God's sovereignity. It is important in this same sense to understand the difference between ruling & reigning.
The human will is horribly vulnerable to everything from internal chemistry to external indoctrination.