Did Christ really pay the sin debt?

[Knee V]

If I may...

All the types of language that we've used in this thread to describe what Christ did (i.e., "dept", "ransom", "redemption", etc) are all analogies from familiar human experiences that Christ and the Apostles used to describe our salvation, but which were never meant to actually convey the full reality of the situation. So "debt" is not what it "is", nor is "ransom" nor "redemption". They are useful analogies, but that is all they are, and one cannot build an entire theology on any single one of them, nor can any single one of them be the filter through which we see all the rest of them.

To an extent, our salvation is kind of like having a debt paid for us. To an extent, our salvation is kind of like being ransomed from a kidnapper. To an extent, our salvation is kind of like being rescued from a tyrannical kingdom. Etc.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Hentenza Physical death has an expiration date, spiritual death does not.

Originally Posted by Stryder06 This is the reason why I don't agree with the idea of "spiritual death"

And yet, scripture is clear that spiritual death is a consequence of sin. How can you reconcile the discrepancy?

I had never heard of that term until someone led me to this site......Great site btw

Kindgdom Bible Studies Lambs Book of Life Part 1

However the subject material of most of these books largely contains a message of religious tradition and spiritual death. But God is also producing a book – a book containing a message of life. For the past two millenniums God, by His Holy Spirit, has been writing portions of this Book in the minds and hearts of His people.

.

I just noticed there is actually a thread on GT concerning that topic

http://www.christianforums.com/t7708175/
Spiritual death

Everything hinges on the definition of “Spiritually dead” and if the person that is spiritually dead can do something for himself. We know the “spiritual dead” person can still physically feed himself, so what else can he do for himself?

How do you get around Jesus explaining to us that a person spiritually dead like the prodigal son can turn to the Father?[/

(Luke 15: 32) Christ has the Father explain what it meant to be dead and calls the son dead (not was thought to be dead) when the Father now knows he is alive: “…because this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found.”

Ezekiel also explains it:

Ezekiel 18:21 But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust? Choose to sin so what else can they chose to do?

In Eph. 2 Paul says: “…God, who is rich in mercy,” so is God only rich enough to only have mercy for the “elect” or is God’s mercy great enough to extend to all people?

It is the same old story, the author is addressing Christians talking about how they were and how they are now, what is not addressed is: “what they did in the election process”. We all know if they sinned it is not because God made them sin, but because they choose to sin so what else can they chose to do? Since they do not have Godly type Love they can do nothing of “value” for anyone (1 Cor. 13), but they can for purely selfish reasons accept God’s help. That simple act of acceptance brings tremendous value to them, but all of it comes from God.

 

[Hentenza]

If I may...

All the types of language that we've used in this thread to describe what Christ did (i.e., "dept", "ransom", "redemption", etc) are all analogies from familiar human experiences that Christ and the Apostles used to describe our salvation, but which were never meant to actually convey the full reality of the situation. So "debt" is not what it "is", nor is "ransom" nor "redemption". They are useful analogies, but that is all they are, and one cannot build an entire theology on any single one of them, nor can any single one of them be the filter through which we see all the rest of them.

To an extent, our salvation is kind of like having a debt paid for us. To an extent, our salvation is kind of like being ransomed from a kidnapper. To an extent, our salvation is kind of like being rescued from a tyrannical kingdom. Etc.

Yes, anthropomorphisms are common in scripture but then scripture is meant to reveal God to us so I will take the words with the inspiration that they were meant to have.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A ransom is demanded when someone/something is being held hostage. The ransom is something that is paid, but it is not something that anyone "owes". A ransom is not a debt.

I always wondered about that.

"Ransom vs Redeem"

Hosea 13:14 "From hand of sh@'owl I shall rescue/ransom/06299 padah/#4506 them.
From Death I shall Redeem/1350 ga'al/#3084 them

1 Corinthians 7:23 Of value/honor ye are purchased/hgorasqhte <59>,
no be ye becoming! bond-servents of men. [Reve 5:9]

Reve 5:9 And they are singing a song new saying "worthy are Thou to be receiving the scroll and to open up the seals of it
that Thou wast slain/slaughtered and did purchase/hgorasaV <59> to the God of us in the blood of Thee out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation".

If I may...

All the types of language that we've used in this thread to describe what Christ did (i.e., "dept", "ransom", "redemption", etc) are all analogies from familiar human experiences that Christ and the Apostles used to describe our salvation, but which were never meant to actually convey the full reality of the situation. So "debt" is not what it "is", nor is "ransom" nor "redemption". They are useful analogies, but that is all they are, and one cannot build an entire theology on any single one of them, nor can any single one of them be the filter through which we see all the rest of them.

To an extent, our salvation is kind of like having a debt paid for us. To an extent, our salvation is kind of like being ransomed from a kidnapper. To an extent, our salvation is kind of like being rescued from a tyrannical kingdom. Etc.

Yes, anthropomorphisms are common in scripture but then scripture is meant to reveal God to us so I will take the words with the inspiration that they were meant to have.

LLOJ once again heads for Wiki!

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

Search Wikipedia Encyclopedia:

Anthropomorphism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The term derives from the combination of the Greek &#7940;&#957;&#952;&#961;&#969;&#960;&#959;&#962; (ánthr&#333;pos), "human" and &#956;&#959;&#961;&#966;&#942; (morph&#275;), "shape" or "form".

From the perspective of adherents to religions in which humans were created in the form of the divine, the phenomenon may be considered theomorphism, or the giving of divine qualities to humans.

Anthropomorphism has cropped up as a Christian heresy, particularly prominently with the Audians in third century Syria, but also in fourth century Egypt and tenth Century Italy.[7] This often was based on a literal interpretation of Genesis 1:27: "So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them".[8]

 

[Stryder06]

And yet, scripture is clear that spiritual death is a consequence of sin. How can you reconcile the discrepancy?

Does the bible actually use the term "spiritual death"? I'm being serious when I ask this.

Typically I've always viewed the term death when referring to the wicked, as a statement of their inevitable future. Like the phrase "dead man walking" speaks of a man who is very much alive, but who's fate at the end of the road is death, so when I read Eph 2:5 I don't think of "spiritual death" but of the end that was to be our own before Christ. Same with when Jesus said "Let the dead bury their own dead". The men doing the burying are dead men because they are without Christ.

 

[Stryder06]

But then physical death only happens once not twice, and since a body is necessary for a resurrection, then it follows that the second death can not be physical but spiritual. Your second sentence is valid but with the addition of "spiritually" preceding "dying".

I think you lost me here. You don't believe that the wicked will be resurrected?

Christ did not sin. The ransom is payment for the debts of others not a ransom for Christ's debts.

Christ's sinlessness is what made it possible for Him to take our punishment and be an acceptable sacrifice to the Father. The quesion is what debt did He pay for us?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Hentenza And yet, scripture is clear that spiritual death is a consequence of sin. How can you reconcile the discrepancy?

Does the bible actually use the term "spiritual death"? I'm being serious when I ask this.

Typically I've always viewed the term death when referring to the wicked, as a statement of their inevitable future. Like the phrase "dead man walking" speaks of a man who is very much alive, but who's fate at the end of the road is death, so when I read Eph 2:5 I don't think of "spiritual death" but of the end that was to be our own before Christ. Same with when Jesus said "Let the dead bury their own dead". The men doing the burying are dead men because they are without Christ.

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for NKJV
"spiritual"
occurs 28 times in 23 verses in the NKJV

1st time used:

Hsa 9:7 The days of punishment have come; The days of recompense have come. Israel knows! The prophet [is] a fool, The spiritual man [is] insane, Because of the greatness of your iniquity and great enmity.

Last time used:

1Pe 2:5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

The Police - Spirits In The Material World - YouTube

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Because, he was sinless, because he was the Paschal Lamb, the sacrificial Lamb, the scapegoat. He is the sinless high priest who through his self offering has performed the eternal atoning work in the holy of holies before the Father most high. No longer is it the repetitious offering of ineffective lambs
Christ has done away with all that.

What about sheep?

John 2:14
and He found in the Temple those selling oxen and sheep and doves, and the money-changers sitting,
15 and having made a whip of small cords, He put all forth out of the temple, also the sheep, and the oxen; and of the money-changers he poured out the coins, and the tables he overthrew,
[Nahum 3:2/Reve 18:11-13]

Reve 18:11
And the merchants of the land are lamenting and are mourning over Her, that the cargo of them no-one is buying not-still
13 cinnamon and incenses and attars and frankincense and wine and oil and flour and grain and beasts and sheep and of horses and of chariots and of bodies and souls of men.
[Nahum 3:2/John 2:14]

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

........The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins ;
and the Roman army as in triumph on the event, came and reared their ensigns against a fragment of the eastern gate, and, with sacrifices of thanksgiving, proclaimed the imperial majesty of Titus, with every possible demonstration of joy. ................................

 

[Tiredknight]

Someone said in thei thread that some people say that Hell is the punishment for Sin...

I feel that that is incorrect.

The bible does is in romans that the Wages of Sin is Death. Not hell. The bible then says that those whose names are not found in the lamb's book of life are sent to hell.

Death is the wage of sin. Hell is the wage of rejecting God's gift of salvation, Imo.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Someone said in thei thread that some people say that Hell is the punishment for Sin...

I feel that that is incorrect.

The bible does is in romans that the Wages of Sin is Death. Not hell. The bible then says that those whose names are not found in the lamb's book of life are sent to hell.

Death is the wage of sin. Hell is the wage of rejecting God's gift of salvation, Imo.

Can you elaborate on that?
I was under the impression "hell" was for both...


.

 

[Tiredknight]

Can you elaborate on that?
I was under the impression "hell" was for both...


.

SURE!

I feel that the bible specifically states that death was a apart of the Curse placed on this Earth when because of Sin.

YES hell is for both, but Hell is specifically for both where Death is not.

Death is only for sin. For example we might have salvation, but physical death is still bound to us. Our bodies will still die. It is a part of the curse. But if we have salvation we will not taste hell.

 

[Keachian]

The problem is that you're saying something that scripture doesn't say. The bible says that the wages of sin is death. That's the debt owed. If the debt was "unpayable" then Christ wouldn't have been able to satisfy it. He couldn't ransom us if there wasn't a price that could be paid.

My only conclusion is that you didn't read what I wrote.

The only payment that could ever suffice for the gap between the sinner and God is the self-sacrifice of the God-man, the only thing that could ever atone for the sins of the elect and bring them out of hell satisfying the Holy and Just Triune God's Holiness and Justice is the outpouring of God's Grace and Justice in a single act upon the Cross, this is what he chose, this is how he satisfies his Justice, his Holiness, his Grace, his Mercy.

 

[thesunisout]

SURE!

I feel that the bible specifically states that death was a apart of the Curse placed on this Earth when because of Sin.

YES hell is for both, but Hell is specifically for both where Death is not.

Death is only for sin. For example we might have salvation, but physical death is still bound to us. Our bodies will still die. It is a part of the curse. But if we have salvation we will not taste hell.

The wages of sin is death, which is the second death in the lake of fire.

 

[Tiredknight]

The wages of sin is death, which is the second death in the lake of fire.

UM no... Before sin there was no physical death. Adam and Eve were perfect and immortal. The wages of Sin is death, Because of Sin death entered this world. Death was not apart of the physical world until sin entered.

Spiritual death, hell is caused by rejection of Salvation.

 

[thesunisout]

UM no... Before sin there was no physical death. Adam and Eve were perfect and immortal. The wages of Sin is death, Because of Sin death entered this world. Death was not apart of the physical world until sin entered.

Spiritual death, hell is caused by rejection of Salvation.

Granted that death entered the world through sin, but the bible when talking about death is often referring to the second death in the lake of fire. Notice the contrast?:

Romans 6:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The contrast of death here to eternal life shows that it is equally enduring, thus it is referring to the second death in the lake of fire.

 

[Tiredknight]

Granted that death entered the world through sin, but the bible when talking about death is often referring to the second death in the lake of fire. Notice the contrast?:

Romans 3:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The contrast of death here to eternal life shows that it is equally enduring, thus it is referring to the second death in the lake of fire.

romans 3:23 is not for the wages of sin is death...

romans 3:23 is for all have sinned...

Romans 6:23 is the Wages of Sin... And according to rest of the chapter, It is not talking about hell.

 

[thesunisout]

duplicate

 

[thesunisout]

romans 3:23 is not for the wages of sin is death...

romans 3:23 is for all have sinned...

Romans 6:23 is the Wages of Sin... And according to rest of the chapter, It is not talking about hell.

Yes, it is Romans 6:23...and you have to look at the contrast. Look at it again:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

Is not the one who is saved by the blood of Christ still going to die? Why then are they contrasted against one another if death in this verse refers to physical death? If that were true then the verse makes no sense at all since those saved by Jesus will still die a physical death. No, this is talking about eternal death, just as being saved with Christ is eternal life. The meaning is obvious if you examine why death is framed in opposition to eternal life.

 

[Tiredknight]

Yes, it is Romans 6:23...and you have to look at the contrast. Look at it again:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

Is not the one who is saved by the blood of Christ still going to die? Why then are they contrasted against one another if death in this verse refers to physical death? If that were true then the verse makes no sense at all since those saved by Jesus will still die a physical death. No, this is talking about eternal death, just as being saved with Christ is eternal life. The meaning is obvious if you examine why death is framed in opposition to eternal life.

And you should read verse 1-22...

 

[Carmella Prochaska]

The second death is the lake of fire. Christ paid the sin debt for those who choose to believe so that they could be counted righteous & saved. Those who don't believe may not be saved.

Isaiah 53:11

When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish, he will be satisfied. And because of his experience, my righteous servant will make it possible for many to be counted righteous, for he will bear all their sins.

It says many, not everyone.