Spiritual death

[granpa]

your brain is a city full of independent units that are constantly talking back and forth, buying and selling, living and dying (See HOW THE MIND WORKS by Steven Pinker).
Its internal wiring takes the form of a fractal pyramid that divides into 3 parts

the midbrain is input & is concerned with 'why' we do what we do

The midbrain has many eyes and can raise the alarm when something needs attention

These alarms exert an irresistible all-powerful force upon you but also give us energy
​

the cerebellum is output & is concerned with 'how' to do what we do

The cerebellum has many hands and can juggle many things at once (but doesnt know "what" it is doing)
​

the cerebral cortex is CEO & is concerned with 'what' to do

You point at the target and the cerebellum shoots
most information goes straight from input to output bypassing the ceo
​

Why we fall from paradise (infinite light)

We fall because our brain doesnt have enough hands to do all the things it needs to do (ie. our cerebellum isnt big enough)

Our brain is forced to juggle things and inevitably it occasionally drops things (ie. misses the mark)
​

Immortality:

If our brain had enough hands (large enough cerebellum) to be able to do everything it needs to do without having to juggle things then we would never drop anything and we would be immortal.

The sea wouldn't be deep enough to drown you
Hellfire (the sun) wouldn't be hot enough to fry you
​

In the future we will expand our cerebellum by connecting our brains to powerful computers

Only then will it be possible to return to paradise
​

Alfred_Boeddeker:
“I see God as one act—just loving, like the sun always shining.”


Our ability to accept the truth even when it isnt what we want it to be is what separates us from the animals
I know that I'd be better off if I lost some weight
I dont want that to be true but it is a fact and I have sufficient objectivity to be able to see that

Unfortunately this ability to go against our own feelings also gets us in trouble
If I forbade myself to eat sweets I wouldnt last a week
While trying to get calories out of my system I would be constantly tempted to take them in
This is like a leak in a boat

Sweets would tempt me not because they taste good but rather because they are forbidden
(like the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden)
These "leaks" are the source of all our troubles
The trouble is not that we desire good things but rather that we desire forbidden things for no other reason than because they are forbidden.

In the Buddha's first discourse he identifies craving (tanha) as the cause of suffering (dukkha). He then identifies three objects of craving: the craving for existence; the craving for non-existence and the craving for sense pleasures (kama)

The Buddha then goes on to say:

So one, always mindful, should avoid desires. Letting them go, he will cross over the flood like one who, having bailed out the boat, has reached the far shore

Monks, these two extremes ought not to be practiced...There is addiction to indulgence of sense-pleasures, which is low, coarse, the way of ordinary people, unworthy, and unprofitable; and there is addiction to self-mortification, which is painful, unworthy, and unprofitable Avoiding both these extremes, the Tathagata (Perfect One) has realized the Middle Path;...namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration​

your brain is a city full of independent units (the triangles below) that are constantly talking back and forth, buying and selling, living and dying

when you go on a diet and decide to cut your calories you have made a law
But some of the independent units in your brain are a little too independent.
They not only dont follow your laws but even go out of their way to deliberately break them.

Stages of our development:

There is an Adam inside all of us.

We are all sons of Adam
​

If there as a noah inside you

then you are a son of Noah (noahide)
​

If there is an abraham inside you

then you are a son of Abraham (slaves of God)
​

If there is a Moses inside you

then you are a son of Moses (judges of God)
​

If there is a David inside you

then you are a son of David (kings of God)
​

If there is a Nebuchadnezzar inside you

then you are a son of Nebuchadnezzar (emperor)
​

If there is a Logos inside you

then you are a son of Christ (christian)
​

In the final stage we become immortal


libido is life energy:

it divides into 6 components.

1) curiosity
2) empathy (feminine, motherly)
3) sympathy (brotherly love)
4-6) each of these has a male counterpart making 6 in total
(sex is apparently a seventh)

I like sugar but I'm not overcome with temptation to immediately stuff my face with it regardless of consequences every time I see it.

Thats libibo.
its gentle and well behaved.

temptation is when libido is dammed up and the pressure is building up behind the dam.

eventually you give in to temptation and that is the dam breaking.
Its violent and unhealthy.

Certainly, you should channel and control libido but you arent supposed to dam it up.

the blocking of libido results in a neurosis and the death drive.
The death drive drives you to do things that are unhealthy.

the mind creates a caricature of the death drive and calls it 'sin'.

Death drive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Even after we become immortal, and "missing the mark" is eliminated, the death drive will still exist.
But it will no longer be seen as "sin"
It will just be seen as a disease

 

[bling]

Everything hinges on the definition of “Spiritually dead” and if the person that is spiritually dead can do something for himself. We know the “spiritual dead” person can still physically feed himself, so what else can he do for himself?

How do you get around Jesus explaining to us that a person spiritually dead like the prodigal son can turn to the Father?[/

(Luke 15: 32) Christ has the Father explain what it meant to be dead and calls the son dead (not was thought to be dead) when the Father now knows he is alive: “…because this brother of yours was dead and has come to life; he was lost and has been found.”

Ezekiel also explains it:


Ezekiel 18:21 But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.

25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die. 27 But if a wicked person turns away from the wickedness they have committed and does what is just and right, they will save their life. 28 Because they consider all the offenses they have committed and turn away from them, that person will surely live; they will not die. 29 Yet the Israelites say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Are my ways unjust, people of Israel? Is it not your ways that are unjust? Choose to sin so what else can they chose to do?

In Eph. 2 Paul says: “…God, who is rich in mercy,” so is God only rich enough to only have mercy for the “elect” or is God’s mercy great enough to extend to all people?

It is the same old story, the author is addressing Christians talking about how they were and how they are now, what is not addressed is: “what they did in the election process”. We all know if they sinned it is not because God made them sin, but because they choose to sin so what else can they chose to do? Since they do not have Godly type Love they can do nothing of “value” for anyone (1 Cor. 13), but they can for purely selfish reasons accept God’s help. That simple act of acceptance brings tremendous value to them, but all of it comes from God.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All men are firstborn spiritually dead toward God, that is why we must be born again of God's Spirit.

 

[John Zain]

All men are firstborn spiritually dead toward God, that is why we must be born again of God's Spirit.

In the OT, God said ...
-- the Jews were spiritually blind and deaf
-- He would NOT heal them of this condition
-- He would disperse them to the 4 corners of the earth
-- He would gather them back together again (later), see 1948
Scriptures gladly available upon request.

Messianic Jews are the exception.
.

 

[JohnRabbit]

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

All men are firstborn spiritually dead toward God, that is why we must be born again of God's Spirit.

Mark 10:13-16(NKJV)
13Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.
15Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”
16And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them.


first born spiritually dead? that would mean that the children from the passage quoted would be spiritually dead and be the model for entrance into the kingdom of God!

and what about jeremiah? he was born with the Holy Spirit (jer 1:5)!

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Mark 10:13-16(NKJV)
13Then they brought little children to Him, that He might touch them; but the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.
15Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”
16And He took them up in His arms, laid His hands on them, and blessed them.


first born spiritually dead? that would mean that the children from the passage quoted would be spiritually dead and be the model for entrance into the kingdom of God!

and what about jeremiah? he was born with the Holy Spirit (jer 1:5)!

Jesus always likened things to something else, just as everything He spoke was in parables. That is why Jesus said whoever does not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.

That does not mean we have to be children (literally) to enter, but as (or like) a child in humility.

And Jeremiah was sanctified, and or, set apart and predestined for the ministry to be a prophet, as I believe most prophets were. But were they totally without sin? I don't believe so.

And I don't believe that changes the fact that Jeremiah (like us) are all firstborn of the corruptable flesh, as in Adam,(all sinned) which is passed along to all those born of the flesh.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

That is why it was so important for Jesus not to have a earthly (fleshy)father, because that transferance of the sin nature in man, was passed along to all men according to the flesh.

 

[granpa]

Why do we experience Spiritual death?
We die because our brain doesnt have enough hands to do all the things it needs to do.
It is constantly juggling many things at once and it occasionally drops things (ie. misses the mark)
If our brain had enough hands to do everything it needs to do then we would be immortal.
The sea would not be deep enough to drown you
Not even hellfire (the sun) itself could destroy us.
In the future we will connect our brains to computers so powerful that we will completely cease to "miss the mark"


The soul that "misses the mark" shall die.

Wherefore, as by one man "missing the mark" entered into the world, and death by "missing the mark"; and so death passed upon all mortals, for that all have "missed the mark"

In the future we will connect our brains to computers so powerful that we will completely cease to "miss the mark"

 

[fhansen]

In the future we will connect our brains to computers so powerful that we will completely cease to "miss the mark"

I think our inability to "hit the mark" comes from a will that's not controlled by reason, because we're not subjugated to God. It has nothing to do with our physical or mental limitations-we'll always be limited in some manner or another, relative to God and His attributes that are bound by no such limitations.

 

[BBAS 64]

In the future we will connect our brains to computers so powerful that we will completely cease to "miss the mark"

Good Day,

So the brain which creates and programs the compter will objectivly enable the computer to help the brain to do something it ( the brain) can not acheive on its own?

Not logical, thus nonsense.

In Him,

Bill

 

[granpa]

Good Day,

So the brain which creates and programs the compter will objectivly enable the computer to help the brain to do something it ( the brain) can not acheive on its own?

Not logical, thus nonsense.

In Him,

Bill

no. You're looking at it all wrong. The brain will connect itself to a computer to correct the mistakes that mother nature made during the process of evolution.

Moreover, why should you doubt that a computer can do things the brain cant?
A computer can multiply hundred digit numbers in a millisecond.
my brain cant do that.
Even though I know how to do it and know exactly what I want my brain to do yet my brain simply cant do it.

 

[fhansen]

no. You've got it all wrong. The brain will connect itself to a computer to correct the mistakes that mother nature made during the process of evolution.

OK, I stand corrected.

 

[granpa]

OK, I stand corrected.

I wasnt responding to your post

I think our inability to "hit the mark" comes from a will that's not controlled by reason, because we're not subjugated to God. It has nothing to do with our physical or mental limitations-we'll always be limited in some manner or another, relative to God and His attributes that are bound by no such limitations.

Well, its true that this wont be a cure-all for everything thats wrong with people.

Even though people will no longer be fallen and will no longer "miss the mark" yet there will still be developmental issues.

The death drive will still exist but will no longer be viewed as "sin" (a caricature of the death drive).
It will be seen for what it is. A disease. A blockage.

 

[granpa]

24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.
26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.

27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”


God could burn the sin out of you now but in doing so he would burn you up with it.
First you must become immortal and only then can you approach God.

 

[granpa]

the brain is a fractal pyramid

it divides into 3 parts (midbrain, cerebellum, and cerebral cortex)

each of which divides into 3 parts (input, output, and ceo)

each of which likewise divides into 3 parts and so on and so on
most information goes straight from input to output bypassing the ceo

At each level only the most important information is sent upward to the ceo
​

the midbrain is concerned with 'why' we do what we do

The midbrain has many eyes and can raise the alarm when something needs attention

These alarms exert an irresistible all-powerful force upon you.
​

the cerebellum is concerned with 'how' to do what we do

The cerebellum has many hands and can juggle many things at once (but doesnt know "what" it is doing)
​

the cerebral cortex is concerned with 'what' to do

The mibrain tells you what time it is.

You (the forebrain) decide what to do.

The cerebellum figures out how to do it.
​

You point at the target and the cerebellum shoots.


​

Why are we susceptible to Spiritual death?

We are susceptible because our brain doesnt have enough hands to do all the things it needs to do.

(ie. our cerebellum isnt big enough)
Our brain is forced to juggle things and inevitably it occasionally drops things (ie. misses the mark)
​

If our brain had enough hands (large enough cerebellum) to be able to do everything it needs to do without having to juggle things then we would never drop anything and we would be immortal.

The sea wouldn't be deep enough to drown you
Hellfire (the sun) wouldn't be hot enough to fry you
​

In the future we will expand our cerebellum by connecting our brains to computers

"missing the mark" will be completely eliminated​

your brain is a city full of independent units (Cortical column) that are constantly talking back and forth, buying and selling, living and dying

Stages of our development:

There is an Adam inside all of us.

We are all sons of Adam
​

If there as a noah inside you

then you are a son of Noah (noahide)
​

If there is an abraham inside you

then you are a son of Abraham (slaves of God)
​

If there is a Moses inside you

then you are a son of Moses (judges of God)
​

If there is a David inside you

then you are a son of David (kings of God)
​

If there is a Nebuchadnezzar inside you

then you are a son of Nebuchadnezzar (emperor)
​

If there is a Logos inside you

then you are a son of Christ (christian)
​

In the final stage we become immortal


libido is life energy:

it divides into 6 components.

1) curiosity
2) empathy (feminine, motherly)
3) sympathy (brotherly love)
4-6) each of these has a male counterpart making 6 in total
(sex is apparently a seventh)

I like sugar but I'm not overcome with temptation to immediately stuff my face with it regardless of consequences every time I see it.

Thats libibo.
its gentle and well behaved.

temptation is when libido is dammed up and the pressure is building up behind the dam.

eventually you give in to temptation and that is the dam breaking.
Its violent and unhealthy.

Certainly, you should channel and control libido but you arent supposed to dam it up.

the blocking of libido results in a neurosis and the death drive.
The death drive drives you to do things that are unhealthy.

the mind creates a caricature of the death drive and calls it 'sin'.

Death drive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Even after we become immortal, and "missing the mark" is eliminated, the death drive will still exist.
But it will no longer be seen as "sin"
It will just be seen as a disease

Our ability to accept the truth even when it isnt what we want it to be is what separates us from the animals
I know that I'd be better off if I lost some weight
I dont want that to be true but it is a fact and I have sufficient objectivity to be able to see that

Unfortunately this ability to go against our own feelings also gets us in trouble
If I forbade myself to eat sweets I wouldnt last a week
While trying to get calories out of my system I would be constantly tempted to take them in
This is like a leak in a boat

Sweets would tempt me not because they taste good but rather because they are forbidden
(like the forbidden fruit in the garden of Eden)
These "leaks" are the source of all our troubles

In the Buddha's first discourse he identifies craving (tanha) as the cause of suffering (dukkha). He then identifies three objects of craving: the craving for existence; the craving for non-existence and the craving for sense pleasures (kama)

The Buddha then goes on to say:

So one, always mindful, should avoid desires. Letting them go, he will cross over the flood like one who, having bailed out the boat, has reached the far shore

Monks, these two extremes ought not to be practiced...There is addiction to indulgence of sense-pleasures, which is low, coarse, the way of ordinary people, unworthy, and unprofitable; and there is addiction to self-mortification, which is painful, unworthy, and unprofitable Avoiding both these extremes, the Tathagata (Perfect One) has realized the Middle Path;...namely: right understanding, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration​

your brain is a city full of independent units (the triangles below) that are constantly talking back and forth, buying and selling, living and dying

when you go on a diet and decide to cut your calories you have made a law
But some of the independent units in your brain are a little too independent.
They not only dont follow your laws but even go out of their way to deliberately break them.

 

[thereselittleflower]

the brain is a fractal pyramid

it divides into 3 parts (midbrain, cerebellum, and cerebral cortex)

each of which divides into 3 parts (input, output, and ceo)

each of which likewise divides into 3 parts and so on and so on
most information goes straight from input to output bypassing the ceo

At each level only the most important information is sent upward to the ceo
​

the midbrain is concerned with 'why' we do what we do

The midbrain has many eyes and can raise the alarm when something needs attention

These alarms exert an irresistible all-powerful force upon you.
​

the cerebellum is concerned with 'how' to do what we do

The cerebellum has many hands and can juggle many things at once (but doesnt know "what" it is doing)
​

the cerebral cortex is concerned with 'what' to do

The mibrain tells you what time it is.

You (the forebrain) decide what to do.

The cerebellum figures out how to do it.
​

You point at the target and the cerebellum shoots.


​

Why are we susceptible to Spiritual death?

We are susceptible because our brain doesnt have enough hands to do all the things it needs to do.

(ie. our cerebellum isnt big enough)
Our brain is forced to juggle things and inevitably it occasionally drops things (ie. misses the mark)
​

If our brain had enough hands (large enough cerebellum) to be able to do everything it needs to do without having to juggle things then we would never drop anything and we would be immortal.

The sea wouldn't be deep enough to drown you
Hellfire (the sun) wouldn't be hot enough to fry you
​

In the future we will expand our cerebellum by connecting our brains to computers

"missing the mark" will be completely eliminated
​

your brain is a city full of independent units (Cortical column) that are constantly talking back and forth, buying and selling, living and dying

Stages of our development:

There is an Adam inside all of us.

We are all sons of Adam
​

If there as a noah inside you

then you are a son of Noah (noahide)
​

If there is an abraham inside you

then you are a son of Abraham (slaves of God)
​

If there is a Moses inside you

then you are a son of Moses (judges of God)
​

If there is a David inside you

then you are a son of David (kings of God)
​

If there is a Nebuchadnezzar inside you

then you are a son of Nebuchadnezzar (emperor)
​

If there is a Logos inside you

then you are a son of Christ (christian)
​

In the final stage we become immortal


libido is life energy:

it divides into 6 components.

1) curiosity
2) empathy (feminine, motherly)
3) sympathy (brotherly love)
4-6) each of these has a male counterpart making 6 in total
(sex is apparently a seventh)

I like sugar but I'm not overcome with temptation to immediately stuff my face with it regardless of consequences every time I see it.

Thats libibo.
its gentle and well behaved.

temptation is when libido is dammed up and the pressure is building up behind the dam.

eventually you give in to temptation and that is the dam breaking.
Its violent and unhealthy.

Certainly, you should channel and control libido but you arent supposed to dam it up.

the blocking of libido results in a neurosis and the death drive.
The death drive drives you to do things that are unhealthy.

the mind creates a caricature of the death drive and calls it 'sin'.

Death drive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Even after we become immortal, and "missing the mark" is eliminated, the death drive will still exist.
But it will no longer be seen as "sin"
It will just be seen as a disease

This forum is for promoting christian belief. The spiritual ideas presented in the post above are unorthodox in their theology.

It promotes the idea that we should give into our desires so not to dam them up, regardless of whether they are right ordered or disordered and therefore sinful to yield to.

It negates the idea of sin as something with eternal consequences.

It removes God from the equation all together.

This has no place here.

 

[granpa]

no. As I said:
Certainly, you should channel and control libido but you arent supposed to dam it up.


the real issue are "leaks".
the leaks are the source of unhealthy thoughts and desires.
A "leak" is wanting something because its forbidden

Those unhealthy desires is exactly what I am arguing against.

 

[thereselittleflower]

no. As I said:
Certainly, you should channel and control libido but you arent supposed to dam it up.


the real issue are "leaks".
the leaks are the source of unhealthy thoughts and desires.
A "leak" is wanting something because its forbidden

Those unhealthy desires is exactly what I am arguing against.

This is new age mumbo jumbo .. where we ascend to a higher consciousness and become "immortal"

You entitled this thread Spiritual Death.

Spiritual Death is seperation from God.

Why are we susceptible to Spiritual death?

We are susceptible because our brain doesnt have enough hands to do all the things it needs to do.

(ie. our cerebellum isnt big enough)
Our brain is forced to juggle things and inevitably it occasionally drops things (ie. misses the mark)
​

If our brain had enough hands (large enough cerebellum) to be able to do everything it needs to do without having to juggle things then we would never drop anything and we would be immortal.

The sea wouldn't be deep enough to drown you
Hellfire (the sun) wouldn't be hot enough to fry you
​

In the future we will expand our cerebellum by connecting our brains to computers

"missing the mark" will be completely eliminated
​

your brain is a city full of independent units (Cortical column) that are constantly talking back and forth, buying and selling, living and dying

Stages of our development:

There is an Adam inside all of us.

We are all sons of Adam
​

If there as a noah inside you

then you are a son of Noah (noahide)
​

If there is an abraham inside you

then you are a son of Abraham (slaves of God)
​

If there is a Moses inside you

then you are a son of Moses (judges of God)
​

If there is a David inside you

then you are a son of David (kings of God)
​

If there is a Nebuchadnezzar inside you

then you are a son of Nebuchadnezzar (emperor)
​

If there is a Logos inside you

then you are a son of Christ (christian)
​

In the final stage we become immortal

​

This is not christian teaching.

We are not susceptible to spiritual death because our cerebellums are not big enough.

We will not overcome our susceptiblity to spiritual death by connecting our brains to computers.


We are susceptible to spiritual death because our first parents sinned and we have inherited a fallen human nature. The only way to escape spiritual death is saving faith in Christ Jesus.


What you are promoting is not even christian beliefs, but more akin to Scientology - which also teaches a tripartate brain - than Christianity.

 

[granpa]

there is no contradiction with anything you said.
all I have done is offer an explanation of how the mechanism works.

what you have said amounts to saying something like "God causes rain and therefore the scientific explanation of how moisture condenses and form clouds is wrong". When in fact, there is no contradiction.

 

[thereselittleflower]

there is no contradiction with anything you said.
all I have done is offer an explanation of how the mechanism works.

what you have said amounts to saying something like "God causes rain and therefore the scientific explanation of how moisture condenses and form clouds is wrong". When in fact, there is no contradiction.

I am sorry, but no you have not described how the mechanism works from a christian point of view, which is all that is allowed to be expressed in this forum.

This "scientific" theory, based loosely on the computational mind theory, is missing the mark so far as to not even be remotely recognizable as christian in basis.

Part of your "mechanics" is to connect our brain to a computer to end "missing the mark" or sin.


Not a christian explanation in any way shape or form.

 

[WINTEJER000]

interesting but very hard to read