Did Christ really pay the sin debt?

[Hentenza]

And this is where my conundrum is. What was the debt that Christ paid? Everyone is in the same boat, owing the same debt. The price was paid by Christ however, and anyone who accepts Him will be saved because their debt has been satisfied by the sacrifice of Christ. So how is it then that the wicked, who owed the same debt as the righteous will pay theirs for all eternity?

Because separation from God is, by necessity, eternal since God is an eternal God.

 

[Stryder06]

In all fairness, you're also saying something that the scripture doesn't say. I would agree that "death" is sin's result, but the Scriptures call death neither a "debt" nor a "punishment".

The scriptures says that the wages of sin is death. It also says that Christ ransomed us. To ransom someone you typically have to make a payment if I'm not mistaken. So yes the scripture does teach that the sin debt/punishment for sin is death.

And forgive me for asking, as I may be way off base, but are you sure the actual purpose of this thread isn't to make a case that "hell" is not eternal?

I have already made my case for why I believe hell isn't eternal. The question I'm asking has acutally been a question that has been bugging me for quite some time and I just wanted to air it out. Wether or not I agree with someone is beside the point so long as I can receive a response that explains what one believes. This keeps me from making assumptions.

 

[Stryder06]

Because separation from God is, by necessity, eternal since God is an eternal God.

Technically though being trapped in hell wouldn't make a sinner any more separated from God than they currently are now on earth. But is that what you believe the penalty is, eternal seperation?

 

[Hentenza]

Technically though being trapped in hell wouldn't make a sinner any more separated from God than they currently are now on earth. But is that what you believe the penalty is, eternal seperation?

I see a flaw in your argument. On Earth the wicked have a chance at being ransomed while after physical death that chance is no longer there. Since physical life is not eternal but the afterlife is, given that God is eternal, then spiritual death must also be eternal. Since spiritual death is the separation from God, then the wicked must be eternally separated from God.

 

[Knee V]

The scriptures says that the wages of sin is death. It also says that Christ ransomed us. To ransom someone you typically have to make a payment if I'm not mistaken. So yes the scripture does teach that the sin debt/punishment for sin is death.

A ransom is demanded when someone/something is being held hostage. The ransom is something that is paid, but it is not something that anyone "owes". A ransom is not a debt.

 

[Stryder06]

Where their is a body there is death. Where there is not a body there can not be death. Spiritual death has already happened in Adam as he immediately experienced spiritual isolation from God. The only way to regain spiritual communion with God is through regeneration which is impossible for those that chose to remain in their sins.

Never been a fan of this line of thinking. I don't even see any evidence in scripture that Adam was "spiritually dead". That term would seem to imply that the one who is spiritually dead would be lost.

Since a body is needed for death, the resurrection of all is mandated. The second death is the eternal separation from God. As Isaiah correctly points out in Is. 59:2, "your inequities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear." Those who are born only once (physically) will die twice (physically and eternally) while those who are born twice (physically and spiritually) will die only once (physically). This is the efficacy and result of the ransom.

Doesn't eternal suffering in hell negate the possibility of dying a second time?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Because separation from God is, by necessity, eternal since God is an eternal God.

This is why Universal Atonement is mportant. Christ atoned for the sins of the whole world, not just those who will be in heaven. The lost are just as forgiven as the saved - they just don't believe they are. They lack faith in Christ's work for them, and this faith is the criterion on which salvation hinges. That's what sola fide is all about.

And the faith of Abraham

Interesting greek word used in Luke 16:26, denoting "ferrying"

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Abraham vs the Rich Man

LUKE 16:22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom.
The rich man also died and was buried." (NKJV)
26 And upon all of these between us[NC/Grace] and ye[OC/Law] a great chasm hath been established.
So that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying

In contrast to the rich man, we now see Lazarus.
The first thing to note is that he is depicted as a beggar. This is an apt description of the Gentiles who "laid at the gate" of Judah.
Paul describes the predicament of the Gentiles before they accepted the Messiah in his letter to the Ephesians:

Chris de Burgh - Don't Pay The Ferryman - YouTube

 

[Yab Yum]

How then were our sins paid for, if Christ was not punished by the Father? Christ made atonement for the sins of all men by offering to God a sacrifice of love that was more pleasing to the Father than the combined sins of all men of all time are displeasing to Him. Hence through the cross Christ merited grace for the salvation of all men. ... He bore our iniquities not in the sense that God punished Him for what we did, but in the sense that He grieved over them all, in solidarity with us. That is what it means that the Lord laid on Him the iniquity of us all. He suffered the consequences of sin (i.e. suffering, grief, death), by entering into solidarity with us, entering into our fallen world, and allowing Himself to suffer in it with us, for us, even by our hands.

Catholic and Reformed Conceptions of the Atonement - Called to Communion

 

[Stryder06]

A ransom is demanded when someone/something is being held hostage. The ransom is something that is paid, but it is not something that anyone "owes". A ransom is not a debt.

Ok.

 

[Stryder06]

I see a flaw in your argument. On Earth the wicked have a chance at being ransomed while after physical death that chance is no longer there. Since physical life is not eternal but the afterlife is, given that God is eternal, then spiritual death must also be eternal. Since spiritual death is the separation from God, then the wicked must be eternally separated from God.

Even so, how are they separated anymore from God at that point then they are now?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A ransom is demanded when someone/something is being held hostage. The ransom is something that is paid, but it is not something that anyone "owes". A ransom is not a debt.

I always wondered about that.

"Ransom vs Redeem"

Hosea 13:14 "From hand of sh@'owl I shall rescue/ransom/06299 padah/#4506 them.
From Death I shall Redeem/1350 ga'al/#3084 them

1 Corinthians 7:23 Of value/honor ye are purchased/hgorasqhte <59>,
no be ye becoming! bond-servents of men. [Reve 5:9]

Reve 5:9 And they are singing a song new saying "worthy are Thou to be receiving the scroll and to open up the seals of it
that Thou wast slain/slaughtered and did purchase/hgorasaV <59> to the God of us in the blood of Thee out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation".

 

[Hentenza]

Never been a fan of this line of thinking. I don't even see any evidence in scripture that Adam was "spiritually dead". That term would seem to imply that the one who is spiritually dead would be lost.

All that are in their sins are spiritually dead. Ephesians 2 makes that clear, "2 And you [a]were dead [b]in your trespasses and sins,". Verse 5 tells us that "5 even when we were dead [f]in our transgressions, made us alive together [g]with Christ (by grace you have been saved)." This can not refer to physical death since those that Paul is speaking to are physically alive. The term explicitly describes the spiritual state of those not ransomed and those ransomed.

Doesn't eternal suffering in hell negate the possibility of dying a second time?

No, since God is eternal. Again, God is eternal, therefore, the consequences of sin are eternal. There is no biblical support for those rejecting the ransom physically dying twice.

 

[Hentenza]

Even so, how are they separated anymore from God at that point then they are now?

Physical death has an expiration date, spiritual death does not.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think Stryder gets the feeling he is being dogpiled on here

I wouldn't mind a response to my posts


.

 

[Stryder06]

All that are in their sins are spiritually dead. Ephesians 2 makes that clear, "2 And you [a]were dead [b]in your trespasses and sins,". Verse 5 tells us that "5 even when we were dead [f]in our transgressions, made us alive together [g]with Christ (by grace you have been saved)." This can not refer to physical death since those that Paul is speaking to are physically alive. The term explicitly describes the spiritual state of those not ransomed and those ransomed.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. At the same time however, those who are alive but without Christ are dead. The process of dying is simply a slow one that will end with them being lost eternally.

No, since God is eternal. Again, God is eternal, therefore, the consequences of sin are eternal. There is no biblical support for those rejecting the ransom physically dying twice.

I do agree that the consequences of sin are eternal. This brings us back to the issue of what debt was paid to redeem the lost. If the debt is, as you say, eternal separation, then how did Christ pay that for us since He is not Eternally separated from the Father?

 

[Stryder06]

Physical death has an expiration date, spiritual death does not.

This is the reason why I don't agree with the idea of "spiritual death"

 

[Lilly Owl]

So according to most, the penalty for sin is not actually death, but is eternal torment in hell fire. If this then is the case, how is it that Christ paid our sin debt?

I know what you mean.
Scripture says Jesus saved the whole world from sin especially those people who believe in him.
Then depending on which philosophy a person subscribes to, they're either born sinners, having inherited sin from Adam. Or they are sinners due to their behavior when they reach the age of accountability.
Other scripture says Jesus died to take the sin of the world upon him on the cross, and yet no matter what way we look at it sin is still a factor in the world and our lives.
So what exactly did Jesus accomplish on the cross?
We believe he died to take away the sin of the world and save us from God's appointing us as sinners? But yet we can still sin because sin still exists.
By God's will.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Hentenza Physical death has an expiration date, spiritual death does not.

This is the reason why I don't agree with the idea of "spiritual death"

I had never heard of that term until someone led me to this site......Great site btw

Kingdom Bible Studies Table of Contents

Kindgdom Bible Studies Lambs Book of Life Part 1

According to the Emphatic Diaglott the correct rendering of the latter part of this passage is: "The Book of the Life of the Lamb." Now, what is meant by this term &#8211; THE BOOK OF THE LIFE OF THE LAMB? The wise man said, "...of the making of many books there is no end..." (Eccl. 12:12).

The book stores are filled to overflowing today with all types of books dealing with every aspect of earthly life. Even in the church world there are books setting forth every kind of viewpoint relating to God, the Bible, doctrine, Christian experience, and church order.

However the subject material of most of these books largely contains a message of religious tradition and spiritual death. But God is also producing a book &#8211; a book containing a message of life. For the past two millenniums God, by His Holy Spirit, has been writing portions of this Book in the minds and hearts of His people.


.

 

[Hentenza]

I don't necessarily disagree with that. At the same time however, those who are alive but without Christ are dead. The process of dying is simply a slow one that will end with them being lost eternally.

But then physical death only happens once not twice, and since a body is necessary for a resurrection, then it follows that the second death can not be physical but spiritual. Your second sentence is valid but with the addition of "spiritually" preceding "dying".

I do agree that the consequences of sin are eternal. This brings us back to the issue of what debt was paid to redeem the lost. If the debt is, as you say, eternal separation, then how did Christ pay that for us since He is not Eternally separated from the Father?

Christ did not sin. The ransom is payment for the debts of others not a ransom for Christ's debts.

 

[Hentenza]

This is the reason why I don't agree with the idea of "spiritual death"

And yet, scripture is clear that spiritual death is a consequence of sin. How can you reconcile the discrepancy?