DO We Have Free Will?

[RisingSpirit]

​

A Predestined Experiments are exactly as God planned.

Please expect God knows what He is doing and stop with the excessive questionings.

Forget non-existent free wills
​

 

[Giver]

Is it God's will for me to sin?
Do I sin.

I'm looking for Scripture., but more than that, I'm looking for the Scripture
to be "rightly divided" as well.


I do sometimes sin, much as I hate to, much as it makes me sad.
It makes me sad because I don't believe my Father is blessed or glorified when I sin...

Hi, you must be associating with too many Calvinists there in GR.

Lets look at some verses where Jesus shows us that we do have a free will to make choices.

(Matthew 23: 8-11) “You, however. Must not allow yourselves to be called Rabbi, since you have only one Master, and you are all brothers. You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor must you allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one Teacher, the Christ.


Notice Jesus says one must not allow, that is a choice.

(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Did not Jesus imply that we have the choice to offer the wicked man resistance?

(Matthew 6:19) “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal.

Again does not Jesus imply that one has choice to store up treasures for his or herself?

(Matthew 5:27-30) “You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.”

Here again Jesus tells us not to do what is wrong, and even give us a choice to sin or take drastic measures to stop one from sinning.

(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

Now here Jesus tells us if we make the choice to not live his Word, which means one is sinning if he or she does not live his Word. Jesus goes on to tell us he does not even know a person who willingly sins. Jesus says a sinner is evil.

John also tells us what a sinner is.

(1 John 3:8) “He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work”

 

[BBAS 64]

Hi. Been skimming through the topic about Free Will and the many responses...may have missed this but would like to pose a question in case I didn't...I've heard it said that the only persons to actually have 'free' will were Adam and Eve before the forbidden fruit. After that no man had 'free will' as each has been born with a predisposition towards the evil, so to speak. Cannot choose the good and thus would fall into the category someone mentioned earlier, "None seeketh after God", or something like that. My question: Would this describe the unregenerate man, the saved man, both or neither? Any takers???

Good Day,


I will give it a shot...

I will submit that this is the condition of the unregerate man. The basis of the question is about Aam and Eve, and thier state prior to the fall. They un like any of Adama offspring were created with the equal abilty to chosse sin or not. Adam's offpring as a result of the fall have predisposition to sin (our hearts are on evil continully) but in regeration we are give a new heart, and the gift of repentance and faith, and as a result he is our God and we are his people.

In Him,

Bill

 

[RisingSpirit]

​

...Or you could maybe be wrong and God DIDNT put a gun in front of the shooter?...

Others will tell you that Calvin got it wrong but really Calvin got it right. We'd sin more, and sin worse, were it not for the Lord's restraining hand in our lives. And -in this respect- all the Lord need do to have us commit a sin is to lift His restraint in our lives just a little bit. At the same time, the Most High doesn't have embezzlers do armed robberies of liquor stores. Or, have adulterers commit shoplifting. Or have drunkards necessarily cheat at cards. God works through our own specific inclinations. He does NOT use Mind Control to have husbands cheat on wives ...the thought of adultery never entering their minds until the Lord planted it there ! Calvinism totally rejects "predestination" defined as the Supreme Being making people do what they didn't want to do. We're talking "moral evil" now. But, as for "physical evil"... If the Lord wants you to fall down, you won't avoid it by not riding your bicycle. The Supreme Being has a thousand ways to have people who don't even own a bike to fall on the ground ! Nor can you foil God smashing you by not living in an area that has earthquakes or a volcano. He can have you hit by a meteor if required. The physical stuff He doesn't need your cooperation for. At the same time, God does NOT have people who don't ride bicycles fall off their bike ! He operates providence through circumstances. If you're predestined to take a fall, exactly how is really immaterial. If you either don't own a bike -or aren't riding it- tripping over a shoelace, or slipping on a banana peel, has always done the trick. Again: Predestination works through circumstances. What the precise circumstance is in any given situation being less important than the intended result.

 

[Giver]

I would say the following verse tells us that we have a free will and how deadly the wrong choice can be.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

 

[Purge187]

I'd like to believe that we have free will, but my mind sometimes wanders back to these passages from Romans:

16[bless and do not curse]It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17[bless and do not curse]For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18[bless and do not curse]Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19[bless and do not curse]One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20[bless and do not curse]But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21[bless and do not curse]Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

I can't lie--I always found that disturbing. I guess those of us who've trusted Christ as Savior should be thankful the fact that we've been chosen for special purposes.

 

[ForceofTime]

the very fact the law came in, shows free will, cursed if they don't keep it, they made a choice. behave keep land, don't, no land.

What say ye about this, my dear Brother?

Rom. 7:14-24 (KJV)
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Peace and grace of our Lord Jesus be with you, Frogster!

 

[RisingSpirit]

I would say the following verse tells us that we have a free will and how deadly the wrong choice can be.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

We're not Mohammedans.

We don't have to penetrate the secret mysteries of Divine Predestination. Nor does the Most High want us to. Just do what the Lord has instructed us to do in His Word. It's that simple ! Obey the commands He has given us, and trust Him to handle the rest.

 

[Giver]

I'd like to believe that we have free will, but my mind sometimes wanders back to these passages from Romans:

16[bless and do not curse]It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17[bless and do not curse]For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18[bless and do not curse]Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19[bless and do not curse]One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20[bless and do not curse]But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] 21[bless and do not curse]Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

I can't lie--I always found that disturbing. I guess those of us who've trusted Christ as Savior should be thankful the fact that we've been chosen for special purposes.

It sure sounds like those called had a free will.

Peter warned us about misunderstanding Paul’s writings.

(2 Peter 3:15-16) “Think of our Lord’s patience as your opportunity to be saved: our brother Paul, who is so dear to us, told you this when he wrote to you with the wisdom that is his special gift. He always writes like this when he deals with this sort of subject, and this makes some points in his letter hard to understand; these are the points that uneducated and unbalanced people distort, in the same way as they distort the rest of scripture a fatal thing for them to do.”

 

[Rick Otto]

Having a predestined choice doesn't mean it isn't yours & you didn't make it. It simply means you can't surprise God. Your sins are forgiven. Go & sin no more. It is an encouragement, not a commandment because then it would be an automatic condemnation. We will not be free of the war between our flesh & our spirit until we are resurrected &/or glorified in a new body free of a 'fallen' nature.

 

[Rick Otto]

We're not Mohammedans.

We don't have to penetrate the secret mysteries of Divine Predestination. Nor does the Most High want us to. Just do what the Lord has instructed us to do in His Word. It's that simple ! Obey the commands He has given us, and trust Him to handle the rest.

Yeah,... I'm all for keepin' it simple.
Just obey the two greatest commandments.

 

[bling]

So far nobody here has suggested that God wills me to sin.
At the other forum someone actually did say as much.

OK let me present another alternative to this discussion.

2 Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The Lord can want one thing but is that the same as His will?

If it is God’s will that none perish then none will perish?

Do you see a difference between God’s will and God’s desire?

In the prodigal son parable what was the father’s will and what was the father’s desire for the younger son?

Can we do stuff that does not bring glory to God nor does everything that happen automatically bring glory to God?

Adam and Eve had only one way to sin, but after partaking of the fruit of knowledge had tons of ways to sin and that knowledge was pasted down to us, so why is God making it so easy for us to sin?

Is sin the problem or is unforgiven sin the problem, since all mature adults will sin?

Is man’s earthly objective “never to sin” (we would all fail at that) or is there an objective that sin actually serves a purpose in help man to fulfill his objective?

Does sin have a purpose for the unbeliever (think about what sinning did for the prodigal son)?

 

[sunlover1]

OK let me present another alternative to this discussion.

2 Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The Lord can want one thing but is that the same as His will?

What you want is what you will.
He doesn't want us to perish
He doesn't will us to perish.
and so IF some perish, there must be an alternative.

If it is God’s will that none perish then none will perish?

or

Do you see a difference between God’s will and God’s desire?

No.
will  [wil] Show IPA
Part of Speech: noun Definition: personal choice Synonyms: aim, appetite, attitude, character, conviction, craving, decision, decisiveness, decree, design, desire, determination, discipline, discretion, disposition, fancy, feeling, hankering, heart's desire, inclination, intention, liking, longing, mind, option, passion, pining, pleasure, power, preference, prerogative, purpose, resolution, resolve, self-control, self-discipline, self-restraint, temperament, urge, velleity, volition, willfulness, willpower, wish, wishes, yearning

 

[Rick Otto]

What you want is what you will.
He doesn't want us to perish
He doesn't will us to perish.
and so IF some perish, there must be an alternative.


or



No.
will  [wil] Show IPA
Part of Speech: noun Definition: personal choice Synonyms: aim, appetite, attitude, character, conviction, craving, decision, decisiveness, decree, design, desire, determination, discipline, discretion, disposition, fancy, feeling, hankering, heart's desire, inclination, intention, liking, longing, mind, option, passion, pining, pleasure, power, preference, prerogative, purpose, resolution, resolve, self-control, self-discipline, self-restraint, temperament, urge, velleity, volition, willfulness, willpower, wish, wishes, yearning

I think more importantly, you need to define "us".

 

[sunlover1]

OK let me present another alternative to this discussion.

2 Peter 3: 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

The Lord can want one thing but is that the same as His will?

Yes, same thing. The words are used interchangeably depending on translation:

The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some people understand slowness, but is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to perish, but wants everyone to repent.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
THE LORD JEHOVAH does not delay his promises as people consider delay, but he is patient for your sakes, and because he is not willing that any person would perish, but that every person would come to conversion.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The Lord isn't slow to do what he promised, as some people think. Rather, he is patient for your sake. He doesn't want to destroy anyone but wants all people to have an opportunity to turn to him and change the way they think and act.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[sunlover1]

I think more importantly, you need to define "us".

Actually it's "any"
Not willing that ANY should perish.

any means any

 

[bling]

What you want is what you will.
He doesn't want us to perish
He doesn't will us to perish.
and so IF some perish, there must be an alternative.

The Bible says specifically: “…not wanting anyone to perish” so you are saying “God does not will anyone to perish, then I would understand as no one perishes?

or



No.
will  [wil] Show IPA
Part of Speech: noun Definition: personal choice Synonyms: aim, appetite, attitude, character, conviction, craving, decision, decisiveness, decree, design, desire, determination, discipline, discretion, disposition, fancy, feeling, hankering, heart's desire, inclination, intention, liking, longing, mind, option, passion, pining, pleasure, power, preference, prerogative, purpose, resolution, resolve, self-control, self-discipline, self-restraint, temperament, urge, velleity, volition, willfulness, willpower, wish, wishes, yearning

The dictionary has a ton of possible words to substitute for will, but there is a huge difference between the “will” of a mere human and the all-powerful God.

Jesus says: “Yet not as I will, but as you will.” So it seems to be God’s will for Christ to go to the cross, but was it really God’s desire to have Christ tortured, humiliated and murdered?

God’s will in Wiki is defined as God’s plan. Could God’s plan have some actions God does not “desire” people or Christ to go through, but knows it is what is needed? Parents do not want their children to fall learning to ride a bike, but understand they will and yet teach them to ride a bike.

Sin has purpose that helps the unbeliever fulfill His objective, yet God does not want or desire that anyone sins.

 

[sunlover1]

The Bible says specifically: “…not wanting anyone to perish” so you are saying “God does not will anyone to perish, then I would understand as no one perishes?

The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some people understand slowness, but is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to perish, but wants everyone to repent.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
THE LORD JEHOVAH does not delay his promises as people consider delay, but he is patient for your sakes, and because he is not willing that any person would perish, but that every person would come to conversion.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The Lord isn't slow to do what he promised, as some people think. Rather, he is patient for your sake. He doesn't want to destroy anyone but wants all people to have an opportunity to turn to him and change the way they think and act.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. __________________



The dictionary has a ton of possible words to substitute for will, but there is a huge difference between the “will” of a mere human and the all-powerful God.

Jesus says: “Yet not as I will, but as you will.” So it seems to be God’s will for Christ to go to the cross, but was it really God’s desire to have Christ tortured, humiliated and murdered?

Weymouth New Testament
Again a second time He went away and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is

impossible for this cup to pass without my drinking it, Thy will be done."


World English Bible
Again, a second time he went away, and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this

cup can't pass away from me unless I drink it, your desire be done."


Young's Literal Translation
Again, a second time, having gone away, he prayed, saying, 'My Father, if

this cup cannot pass away from me except I drink it, Thy will be done;'

God’s will in Wiki is defined as God’s plan. Could God’s plan have some actions God does not “desire” people or Christ to go through, but knows it is what is needed? Parents do not want their children to fall learning to ride a bike, but understand they will and yet teach them to ride a bike.

Sin has purpose that helps the unbeliever fulfill His objective, yet God does not want or desire that anyone sins.

Are you trying to say that God's WILL is for me to sin but His DESIRE is that I don't?

 

[Rick Otto]

Actually it's "any"
Not willing that ANY should perish.

any means any

Which any? Unbelievers included? I wouldn't think so.
Could "not willing" leave room for "but stil allowing"?l

2Peter is addressed to believers, not unbelievers:
2Peter1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

So 2Peter3:9 is addressed to believers as well:
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

Any of "us", not any of anybody or any of everybody.

 

[sunlover1]

Which any? Unbelievers included? I wouldn't think so.
Could "not willing" leave room for "but stil allowing"?l

Amen brother Rick!