Messianic Judaism?

[Tishri1]

We have two sub forums that should serve that purpose .....

I can't give you anymore sub forums but what I can do is rename the one we have now

An ultimate solution for that would be to simply make another main forum with sub-forums just like this one for posters that would actually match what it is that they reflect more accurately since all of the other Messianic Jewish organizations/leadership of the Jewish world are routinely dismissed for the desires of a few - and that is something other Messianic Jews here have suggested.

If others are involved in Messianic Fellowships/Synagouges which adhere more so to traditional Messianic Judaism in the Mainstream - the kind others have tended to deem as either too "supporative of the Church" or in agreement with Mainstream Christiantiy - then perhaps a place could be made for them on that. It'd allow for discussion from Messianic Jewish leaderships that've been brought up before on the forum multiple time and give room for others to share their own thoughts on Messianic Judaism in the traditional view - a view that says it is Jewish Chrisitanity (counter to mainstream Christiantiy which is Gentile Focused) and meant for outreach for Jews.

 

[Avodat]

Thank you Steve that is more helpful than folks know ...really.... and I know many are uncomfortable reporting folks but its better than all the quarreling that we find ourselves in sometimes

One way to also avoid these threads run amuck is to ask clarifying questions when it looks like a huge fight is ensuing.... I can help you all with that too if you want right here in this thread!

Then please will you look at my previous post and action what I said in my PM to you on 12th November and what you said you would do to make the rules on these issues clearer?

The rules contradict themselves!

 

[Yahudim]

ok so it's true that only anti Torah Christian teaching is being called out here and maybe general Christian teaching off topic to the forum that disrupts the peace and harmony here? ( trying to place this with in the congregational rules we have)

But you are not trying to attack Christians just keep the Teaching Torah positive correct?

I just want to pause and point out that some of the fears stated have been calmed already it sounds like ... Please tell me if this is true....

You don't want to insist on a certain level of Torah observance or remove icons if the observance isn't high enough correct?

And ....You just want the teaching to remain Torah submissive , Torah positive not anti Torah or Torah negative?
Correct?

Sorry, don't know how I missed this post.

Correct on all counts. God job of summing it up!

 

[Tishri1]

If someone disagrees with Christian anti Torah teaching they should be able to voice it in their safe haven as long as the topic isn't off topic to that forums purpose

so folks may be in deep disagreement with mainstream Christianity on many topics and that is ok just that one cannot teach against the nicene creed hope that helps

Just as many other congregational forums are not in total agreement with each other so to MJ may not be in agreement with other teachings in Christianity that is ok but what I hear hurts is the belittling and flaming that often comes with these disagreements am I right?

Would you say that it is going too far when folks start to belittle anyone?

For others involved in circles that were never accepted by mainstream Messianic Judaism/its stances and that may feel they have a significant majority in their view - be it here or on other forums where they've complained on it (i.e. those claiming that Christiantiy is anti-semitic at it's core for the most part, those claiming CHrisianity was a political tool, those claiming Churches today do not support the Torah/walk it out or feel they observe it more so than others, those claming that Torah in Mosaic Code was meant for mandatory observance by Gentiles and Jews, those saying Christians don't know Christ, etc.) - a forum can be made for them where they have freedom to express their own thoughts.

Others have often suggested that they do not care if their own views don't line up with traditional Messianic Judaism - even going so far as to say they're fine being called "herectics" by Jewish believers since they claim there are parts of the movement evolving to look different than the mainstream.

In the event that another forum cannot be made, it may be best to simply suggest others use others forums abroad more to their liking. Everyone here is already aware of how there are other forums that were made expliclty by members for that purpose since CF was not in agreeement with certain things expressed here - and the latter group you mentioned has noted that they are more in line with the spirit of CF than the former when it comes to commentary.

For those wishing to give answers, there has to be a recognition that the answers they give are not - and cannot - ever be considered as the only ones Messianic Jews have ever advocated - and that's really what much of the battles come down to. Who gets to give the answers. I think the set up that is currently present with the MJ Statement Of Purpose (new) we have and the boundaries given allows for the most expression of Messianic Judaism and the most consistency/complimentary action with what CF has asked directly for in adhering to in House Rules for every Faith Group forum/ site wide rules such as:

• The Nicene Creed
• Advocating for the Church
• Supporting Mainstream Christianity

If that cannot be done, it simply opens the door for consistent inconsistency. We cannot on this forum do otherwise and say that we really are in agreement with the rules that are enforced in other Faith Groups when it comes to Christianity being promoted overall. And unless it is planned to have the forum be one that is set unto itself/held above the standard for all others, it wouldn't seem right.

 

[Tishri1]

Knowing that "some "observance should be necessary to teach on a Torah subject, can you think of some other tips, anyone , that could help with the communication in here?

I think the latter group you noted is concerned on how they want to have consistency with Observant Messianic Jews/Judaism as it has been - and not use the name of the movement if we're not going to really show concern for what is actually being said in it.

Other Messianic Jews have often noted how they were driven away largely by other Gentiles who were continually fusing over them not being "observant" enough to their own liking - much of it seeming like a devaluing of Jewish believers in general. And other Jewish believers have noted they would like to fellowship - but cannot when every answer given has to be followed up with others giving repeated "rebukes" and denouncements from others who decided to believe that Jewish people were never following Torah as Christians....or that believe all Jewish people fit a formula when it comes to living out the Law of GOD/serving Yeshua. The same goes for choosing to raise fuss over not agreeing with the answers another Messianic Jew or Messianic Gentile gives.

 

[Chaplain David]

If someone disagrees with Christian anti Torah teaching they should be able to voice it in their safe haven as long as the topic isn't off topic to that forums purpose

so folks may be in deep disagreement with mainstream Christianity on many topics and that is ok just that one cannot teach against the nicene creed hope that helps

Just as many other congregational forums are not in total agreement with each other so to MJ may not be in agreement with other teachings in Christianity that is ok but what I hear hurts is the belittling and flaming that often comes with these disagreements am I right?

Would you say that it is going too far when folks start to belittle anyone?

Happy New Year everyone. I agree with you Deb and also believe it is possible to communicate without flaming each other. No one likes to get flamed and if we take a few breaths before replying to a post that seems to push our buttons, even better, say a little prayer before replying, we are much less likely to respond negatively. We can respond respectfully and with love if we try. Admittedly, sometimes it is a challenge.

 

[Tishri1]

Good grief. Paralysis by analysis.

Tell me more about that ....your clearly frustrated and I want to help if I can ... we might be able to weed thru some of this but please tell me what you see as an issue and how you would solve it too

 

[Avodat]

Knowing that "some "observance should be necessary to teach on a Torah subject, can you think of some other tips, anyone , that could help with the communication in here?

Tishri - the CF rules & the SOP are very unclear on this teaching / not-teaching thing by 'visitors'. I PM'd you a while ago and explained it to you and were going to bring the SOP into line with the general rules. This hasn't been done. If we get the rules clear there is much less room for argument. Could you please re-read my PM and implement the changes you said you were going to make? This was my PM to you on 12th November that you were going to action because we had a guy claiming he was working according to the SOP - but the CF rules said something very different. In your response to my PM you said you would make the two sets of rules the same - this still is not the case and the confusion between the two makes it incredibly hard to apply either set!

Here are the two sets of rules:

CF Rules:

Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts.
Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

SoP House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here:
http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0
In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.



The section in bold within the SoP House Rules makes it clear that guests may not debate, BUT it ADDS the qualification that they CAN teach as long as it is not against this group's theology. It also says nothing about being restricted to asking questions, although it does add the bit about posting in fellowship.

I hope you can see the difference. It gets confusing for everyone when one person quotes the CF rules which are clear and precise and another poster, who has looked only at the SoP, gets a different set of rules!

 

[Tishri1]

Third point of contention: Members falsely claiming Torah observance, putting the opinions of outside organizations above the rules and SOP of this organization.

Ok I remember this one being resolved hmmmmm what happened do you think?

Why do people still do that do you think?

 

[Tishri1]

Point of contention - four, five and six: Caring what a non-observant Christian says about compromise and Torah observance, should have no bearing upon Torah observance in a Torah observant Messianic Judaism forum.
Allowing a non-observant Christian to teach about Torah observance in a Torah observant Messianic forum.
Allowing someone to quote the teachings of a non-observant Christian on Torah observance in a Torah observant Messianic forum.

Ok and on all those points tell me what that is doing to the threads in here, what is the outcome or what concerns you if this continues?

 

[Tishri1]

Crikey - the shouting is really loud!!!!

The rules say, at No. 1: (Torah)...this can be an area of great division with much misunderstanding, so we must realize that we are all at different points in our walk and that the Ruach Elohim (the Spirit of God) will lead people to The Truth. We realize that not all Messianics have equal levels of Torah observance. The disputes concerning this matter will not be tolerated.

and we have an 'Everything Torah!' thread, so why has this thread got so violent?

Hi Avodat,

Thank you for quoting the SOP and I have to tell you one of our own staffers found this SOF researching other sites for weeks for one she thought would best represent MJs in her limited reasoning which is very basic and that's what CF needed ... a basic Sop that grabbed In a nut shell what MJ is compared to the average generic Christian denomination

We cannot get away from the fact that MJ is Torah positive and that is why the Sop is aligned with those words and in that way

I think she did a great job and no one helped her at all to find it she was unbiased and very prayerful in her research

 

[Avodat]

Hi Avodat,

Thank you for quoting the SOP and I have to tell you one of our own staffers found this SOF researching other sites for weeks for one she thought would best represent MJs in her limited reasoning which is very basic and that's what CF needed ... a basic Sop that grabbed In a nut shell what MJ is compared to the average generic Christian denomination

We cannot get away from the fact that MJ is Torah positive and that is why the Sop is aligned with those words and in that way

I think she did a great job and no one helped her at all to find it she was unbiased and very prayerful in her research

I wasn't in disagreement with it! I was affirming its existence! As I have shown above it is possible to drive the proverbial coach and horses through parts of the SoF, and many visitors do so, using the opposites built in to the CF and SoP rules! These are my greater concern and it is they you were going to fix.

 

[yedida]

We have two sub forums that should serve that purpose .....

I can't give you anymore sub forums but what I can do is rename the one we have now

The home page forum should be the TO forum as Torah observance is the thrust of MJ. Otherwise the home page will be nothing more than our favorite song/recipe forum. Quite useless.

 

[Temptinfates]

It seems like the rules here are like a protestant sub-group where the protestants have to be in subjection to RCC teachings. We are MJ's. Are our beliefs only considered to be valid if it lines up with "the church<----ambiguous"? That seems to be the attitude with many of the posters that come here to teach other doctrines that oppose the core of our beliefs. It is often tolerated for days on end while the same poster posts video after video in many threads..and many such things that are opposed to Biblical Messianic Judaism.
And, Tishri, thanks for listening to the posters of said issues. I know you are trying to help and I for one, appreciate it.
Temptinfates

 

[Tishri1]

Thanks CM to ask again specifically knowing now they don't object to "some" level of observance but just don't want non observance taught .... How do you feel about that

Also do you have any thoughts on folks belittling and flaming ?

HI Tish,

I say there is nothing wrong with the rules, and that the sub-forums are already in place to make concessions for the "problems" pointed out by the two who are complaining.

I think that the history of this forum has always been one of making concessions for the varying positions on MJism, and therefore the complaints we are seeing is really just a lack of compliance with those concessions.

Tal is basically making his points based on his own religious ideals- but we have a sub-forum that is perfect for him already. I think he has been judgmental on others here and this was never meant to be a place where conversation and opinion was to be dominated by one or two people judging all others, as if they had some kind of authority at all.

There are other forums that these would-be judges of the brethren would not be tolerated at all. There are others where they already post and are tolerated.

My solution is this:

- There are already sub-forums for those who believe they are more "observant" than others. People who wish to discuss this kind of thing or be encouraged in their walk towards that should merely post there. This is not difficult.

- Don't change the rules at all- just encourage 1) tolerance and 2) posting in the appropriate sub-forums. Enforce the breaches of the rules already in place and all will be well.

- If people find that the Christian Forums MJ forum is too lax for them, then they ought to consider whether or not they are suited to it. Rather than force everyone else to make even more concessions for the few, perhaps it's just not the right place for the kind of doctrinal tyranny they are standing for.

The concessions have already been made. The forums are in place. Why all the shouting and crying?

 

[Yahudim]

Ok I remember this one being resolved hmmmmm what happened do you think?

Why do people still do that do you think?

I can imagine all sorts of motives, but none make the slightest bit of difference. I can think of a couple of members both Messianic and otherwise that advocate non-observance of Torah to both members and visitors alike. There is one member in particular that not only teaches non-observance, but links to websites, videos, books and all types of media in support of the 'law is done away with' position of mainstream Christianity or the 'Torah is not for Gentiles' position of mainstream rabbinic Judaism. In that this puts Torah observance in a negative light, I find it offensive in the context in which it is offered and contrary to the spirit of the forum.

Why do you think it is happening? Could it be that some members are not being honest about their Torah observant status or that they disagree with the SOP and continue to work at cross purposes? Your guess would probably be as good as anyone's. It is certain that everyone has an agenda. It is also certain that not everyone is completely honest about theirs.

Hope this helps. I have to run to the store. Back shortly.

 

[Tishri1]

Good point which is why it is nessessary to qualify teaching Torah requires some observance and second the already established fact that MJ is a congregation of Torah positive teaching

Thoughts?

Yed, with respect, you haven't thought this through. Who will be the judge of who is "observant enough" or what constitutes "minimal observance required to be deemed observant"? Certainly not you, or Tal, or in fact anyone here. This is not a Beit Din, nor is MJism Islamic where it should degenerate into bickering about who is holy enough and who should be silenced and shunned or worse.

What you are calling for is beyond the legal scope of an internet forum. It can 't be policed, and no one here is qualified to judge another on their religious life choices.

Mere humans who want to silence all opposition with endless and ever mounting myriads of rules should in fact worry you (esp when they are int he minority!). You should not join their ranks but stand against them- after all, is this not exactly one of the reasons you left the Church?

 

[Steve Petersen]

The home page forum should be the TO forum as Torah observance is the thrust of MJ. Otherwise the home page will be nothing more than our favorite song/recipe forum. Quite useless.

Most excellent idea. I vote Yes!

 

[Tishri1]

Please don't address each other here and perpetuate the quarreling if it continues we will have to make other arrangements

Seriously, would you like to the be judge over who is "false" and who is "true"? All of your points of contention would require an awful lot of judging, interviews, and all this other stuff. A forum Gestapo? God forbid!

I don't think you are being even slightly realistic here. Don't you have a congregation where you can seek out to live observant (whatever that means to you) and shouldn't you be here to fellowship. The MJ forum at CF will not become a denomination, I hate to tell you. This is not aiming to become a congregation with strict adherence to some dogmas. We all have outside places for that (or equivalent). IOW, you should live your religious life in a congregation, not here. This is multi-denominational and diverse, and we have all kinds of Ms and MJs here. This is a fact of life, I'm afraid. It's about how you deal with it. You've let it get you. You shouldn't.

Seems to me that you are very focused on a particular paradigm of what you consider to be Torah observance, and now you feel so immersed in it that you think the world should be doing it or you will do lots of posts with big bold letters until the world changes. Am I close?

 

[Tishri1]

PM me if you don't see be back here soon ok I will try to hurry and catch up