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medical students boycotting lectures on evolution

Jamin4422

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Are you aware that the Shroud first showed up right late 13th early 14th century, which is also in the range of radiocarbon dates found on it.
Are you aware that they got the sample for the test from an area on the shroud that had been repaired from damage from the fire? It does not matter if the Shroud is a man made artifact or if the shroud was made by the resurrection power of God. The Shroud still tells a very, very, very detailed story about the death and resurrection of Christ. I just wonder IF the shroud was made by man then WHY can they not reproduce it to make another one and why can no one tell us how it was made? In fact they did not even know until the camera came out what they had. It was not until the first photograph that they even knew what they had.
 
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Tiberius

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Are you aware that they got the sample for the test from an area on the shroud that had been repaired from damage from the fire?

Are you aware that they tested several different sections of the shroud, all of which indicated a medieval origin? Radiocarbon Dating of the Shroud of Turin

It does not matter if the Shroud is a man made artifact or if the shroud was made by the resurrection power of God. The Shroud still tells a very, very, very detailed story about the death and resurrection of Christ.

So you'd be happy believing a lie that you know is a lie, provided it makes you feel better?

I just wonder IF the shroud was made by man then WHY can they not reproduce it to make another one...

Except they did. Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin | Reuters

...and why can no one tell us how it was made?

They guy who made the replica seems to be able to explain it...

In fact they did not even know until the camera came out what they had. It was not until the first photograph that they even knew what they had.

Did they have cameras in the 1300s? Because in 1390, Bishop Pierre d'Arcis wrote a memorandum to Antipope Clement VII, stating that the shroud was a forgery and that the artist had confessed. Now, if they had no idea what was on the shroud, why would they be saying this at all? Obviously they knew it had the image of a man on it.

John Calvin also made mention of the image on the shroud way back in 1543.

So don't tell me they had no idea until they started taking photos of it.
 
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Jamin4422

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So you'd be happy believing a lie that you know is a lie, provided it makes you feel better?
How is it a "lie"? Anything that old is a valid artifact. In this case even if the artifact dates back to the 1200's the Shroud still tells the story about the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ. We are having a conversation about the Resurrection of Christ because of an artifact that you believe dates back 800 years. Perhaps you do not believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead so for you the artifact is some sort of a "lie". If you do not believe in the resurrection then that only indicates to me that you do not have eternal life. I assume that you believe that when you die, you will perish and eventually be forgotten. There may no longer be any evidence at all that you were ever alive. Not everyone believes in their eventual annihilation, some people believe in eternal life and to gain eternal life that means they have to believe in the resurrection.
 
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Tiberius

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How is it a "lie"? Anything that old is a valid artifact.

Does this make any sense at all when you say it? Are you seriously proposing that an artifact made between 1260 and 1390 is an artifact of events that allegedly happened more than a thousand years earlier?

Seriously, it's like me saying that something made in the 1980s is an artifact of the Kennedy assassination...

In this case even if the artifact dates back to the 1200's the Shroud still tells the story about the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ.

according to some interpretations, yes. Sometimes it seems that whenever a figure appears on anything believers insist it is Jesus or Mary. Why do you think Jesus is appearing on toast. Or the Virgin Mary in a fence post.

But even if it is meant to be the image of Jesus, so what? It's just something else telling a story that's been heard before. The fact that the shroud tells the same story in no way makes the story more credible. Did the story of The Lord of the Rings become more likely to be real when Peter Jackson made his trilogy?

We are having a conversation about the Resurrection of Christ because of an artifact that you believe dates back 800 years. Perhaps you do not believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead so for you the artifact is some sort of a "lie". If you do not believe in the resurrection then that only indicates to me that you do not have eternal life. I assume that you believe that when you die, you will perish and eventually be forgotten. There may no longer be any evidence at all that you were ever alive. Not everyone believes in their eventual annihilation, some people believe in eternal life and to gain eternal life that means they have to believe in the resurrection.

Yeah, use of fear. If you believe in God you'll get eternal life! Exact same tactic used by skin cream companies. Use our cream or you'll look really really old!!!
 
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How is it a "lie"? Anything that old is a valid artifact. In this case even if the artifact dates back to the 1200's the Shroud still tells the story about the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ.

128895459275769404.jpg
 
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46AND2

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How is it a "lie"? Anything that old is a valid artifact. In this case even if the artifact dates back to the 1200's the Shroud still tells the story about the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ. We are having a conversation about the Resurrection of Christ because of an artifact that you believe dates back 800 years. Perhaps you do not believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead so for you the artifact is some sort of a "lie". If you do not believe in the resurrection then that only indicates to me that you do not have eternal life. I assume that you believe that when you die, you will perish and eventually be forgotten. There may no longer be any evidence at all that you were ever alive. Not everyone believes in their eventual annihilation, some people believe in eternal life and to gain eternal life that means they have to believe in the resurrection.

How is it a lie? He just got done telling you how it is a lie, and you completely ignored it. Instead, you picked one quote out of four or five to which you thought you could come up with a coherent argument...and still failed.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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How is it a "lie"? Anything that old is a valid artifact. In this case even if the artifact dates back to the 1200's the Shroud still tells the story about the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Christ.
But...

We are having a conversation about the Resurrection of Christ because of an artifact that you believe dates back 800 years.
That's not...

Perhaps you do not believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead so for you the artifact is some sort of a "lie".
But it is...
If you do not believe in the resurrection then that only indicates to me that you do not have eternal life. I assume that you believe that when you die, you will perish and eventually be forgotten. There may no longer be any evidence at all that you were ever alive. Not everyone believes in their eventual annihilation, some people believe in eternal life and to gain eternal life that means they have to believe in the resurrection.
And some people believe in reincarnation, some people believe in the persistence of mind, some people believe in karma and dharma, some people believe that Lord Xenu and our bodies are possessed by the souls of murdered aliens. Where's the evidence?

A relic fabricated 800 years ago is not evidence of an event that took place 2000 years ago. It is, at best, evidence of people's fervent belief 800 years ago, just as Jesus' disciples' martyrdom is evidence of their belief - but neither are evidence of the event.
 
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46AND2

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(snip)... Perhaps you do not believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead so for you the artifact is some sort of a "lie".(snip)...

Jamin, it doesn't matter if the resurrection actually happened or not. Either way, the Shroud is still a lie. It's a hoax. It was purported to be the burial garment of Christ. That is what makes it a lie.

If it was always understood to be an homage to the resurrection and nothing more, then that would be fine. But it was purposely created to deceive people into thinking it was a holy relic.

Even if it was determined to be a hoax and then used as an homage, that would be fine. But you and many others still use it as some sort of archaeological evidence for the resurrection, when it clearly is not.
 
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Jamin4422

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Does this make any sense at all when you say it?
That is not what I said. I does not make any sense because you do not understand the resurrection. Nor do you want to understand the resurrection. You do not want eternal life so why are we even having a conversation about something your not interested in?
 
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Jamin4422

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the Shroud is still a lie. It's a hoax.
Nope, sorry Charlie, your not paying attention again. The Catholic Church does not verify the Shroud one way or the other. They do not say that it is and they do not say that it is not. They leave it up to you to decide for yourself. I wish you could catch the Modern Catholic Church at something. But I think your outgunned, they study this stuff to much and they are more on top of their game then you are.
 
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Jamin4422

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Where's the evidence?
IF your going to be a part of the resurrection then the resurrection power of God would already be working in your life to prepare you for that. IF you have NO evidence then chances are you are NOT going to be resurrected and you will perish or be annihilated. But everyone I have ever talked to already believes that, so I am not telling you anything new.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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IF your going to be a part of the resurrection then the resurrection power of God would already be working in your life to prepare you for that. IF you have NO evidence then chances are you are NOT going to be resurrected and you will perish or be annihilated.
So, in other words, you have no evidence to present. Sure, you may have internal revelation, the whispers of God, the belief that a particular event is divinely inspired (despite not being beyond the statistical norm), but you have no actual evidence you can hand over. Yes? No?

It's amazingly difficult to eke out this kind of information, despite the fact that it either does, or does not exist. Christians tend to fall into two camps: those who foolishly cite bogus 'proofs' of miraculous healing or weeping statues, and those who more intelligently admit that there's no external evidence they can point to. I wonder if you fall into the former or the latter...

But everyone I have ever talked to already believes that, so I am not telling you anything new.
Actually, the vast majority of Christians (and non-Christians) believe that the Christian afterlife is Heaven (eternal bliss) vs. Hell (eternal suffering). Right or wrong, you're in the minority.

Don't get me wrong, annihilation is far superior to eternal suffering (and side-steps major theological issues), but I'm surprised you think most Christians share this belief.
 
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Jamin4422

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So, in other words, you have no evidence to present.
I got all the evidence I need for me. Your on your own to find your own evidence. I am not going to do it for you. In other words the evidence is subjective not objective evidence.

I'm surprised you think most Christians share this belief.
I know what Christians believe but I also know what the Bible says. So I choose to go with the Bible and not popular opinion. Sinners will perish in their sin and even the memory of them will be no more.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I got all the evidence I need for me. Your on your own to find your own evidence. I am not going to do it for you. In other words the evidence is subjective not objective evidence.
Then you agree with what I wrote. Good. Now, why should I try and find this evidence? Why shouldn't I just live my life as I'm doing right now?

I know what Christians believe but I also know what the Bible says. So I choose to go with the Bible and not popular opinion. Sinners will perish in their sin and even the memory of them will be no more.
That's fine. My point was that, right or wrong, you're in the minority. It's good you don't just go with the popular opinion, it's good you do your own research and come to your own conclusions. But, you implied that your belief was the most common one ("But everyone I have ever talked to already believes that, so I am not telling you anything new") - it's not.
 
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"Can only can be reproduced by x ray like technology"?
1. That's complete bull****. No one who's got the slightest clue when it comes to logic would write things like that.

1, I'm sure you were raised better than that.

2, The Image is by a burst of light, kind of like an x ray, get over it, it's a Fact.

2. They don't refer to any study, the video in itself isn't even close to being "sort of a study".

The video is a study/examination.

3. I've watched it four times now and I'll tell you right away, I'm not lying when I write this:

Sure you aren't...

Concluding that that would be the shroud of christ, based on that, is a sign of having the conclusion before the evidence.

Nope, all evidence points to this being from Jesus Christ, learn to listen/read and not curse and have an attitude of a 5 year old girl,

Jerusalem Pollen from March/April
over-exaggerated suffering for a crucifixion victim(crucified victims didn't suffer that much, only known is Jesus Christ)
flogging
29AD Pontius Pilate coin on the eye(or eyes) clear giveaway.
peired on side(Jesus Christ was pierced in side instead of getting legs broken)
legs intact(crucified victims would get their legs broken, man on Shroud didn't, also Jesus Christ instead of getting legs broken was prieced in side, another clear giveaway.)
Looks like Historical Jesus Christ
Image caused by a Miracle(Looks like Jesus Christ and is miraclous, obviously Jesus Christ)

but most obvious is crown of thorns, man on shroud = Jesus Christ
 
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So, in other words, you have no evidence to present.

Do you want to play?,


The Bible(40 Different witnesses, Approx. 60 Accounts, no Contradiction, No error, Scientific Foreknowledge, Historical Foreknowledge, Scientific Accuracy, Historical Accuracy, which means whether you like it or not, these witnesses and their accounts are valid for testing in Court of Law, and as proven All Accounts are Accurate and True.)

Jesus Christ Resurrection is The Only Explanation of the Facts, All other theories have been disproven and rendered Impossible, leaving only One possiblity(Resurrection) which means He really Resurrected from the dead.


The Shroud, no evidence of forgery, not a painting, has blood, x-ray like image, cannot be reproduced with any technology past or present therefore not man made/forged and is supernatural, caused by a burst of UV light from the body, crucified person who resembles Historical Jesus Christ to a tee.

Already with this Jesus Christ is The Lord/God and God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit)

First Uncaused Cause(Scientific and Philosophical Fact, in otherwords overall Fact and if you deny this you must deny "macro-evolution" as this actually is a Proven Fact.)

An Infinite Past of Anything in Succession(Matter, Time, Space, Energy, Change, cause & effect etc) is a Impossibility. if the past was infinite we would never get to the present, count down from Infinity to zero. therefore anything in succession must have a beginning in the finite past. which means it is an indeniable Fact that once nothing existed.(evident by this and the big bang)


Since infinite amount of past cause and effect is impossible it had to start, which means there is a cause which has no cause, The First Uncaused Cause.

The Cause is,

- Uncaused since has no cause

- Beginningless since if began to exist must have a cause.

-Changeless since an Infinite Amount of past change is impossible and a change requires a cause, First Uncaused Cause has no cause

- Timeless since changeless, no change, and no Time.

- Eternal since has always existed, is changeless(ceasing to exist would be a change) and is Timeless.

- Spaceless since Timeless and changeless, things in space are ever changing and are in time.

- Immaterial since Timeless and Changless, matter is ever changing, changeless material doesn't exist, and changeless material cannot cause anything, therefore Immaterial.

-All Powerful since created everything and lesser doesn't produce the greater.

- Of Which No Greater Can Be Conceived since Created Everything.

Now that was part 1,

Part 2,

3 Indeinable Facts

1, Whatever Begins to exists has a cause

2, The Universe began to exist(infinite regression is impossible, big bang, and Borde, Guide, Valienkin Theorem make this an irrefutable Fact.)

3, Therefore The Universe has a Cause to it's existence.

The Cause of The Universe is,

-Spaceless and Timeless, since Created/Started/Caused Space and Time, can therefore exist without Space and Time.

- Since Spaceless and Timeless is Changeless

-Since Changeless is Immaterial, and since doesn't change, The Cause didn't start to exist, making it The First Uncaused Cause.

The First Uncaused Cause is The Cause of The Universe.

Now time to prove that this is without a shadow of a doubt God(which means whether "macro-evolution" happened or not, God exists and you have to accept that)

1. That fits God's description to a tee.

2. The First Uncaused Cause is The Direct Cause of The Universe, God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) is a First Uncaused Cause who Directly Caused The Universe.

3, Is Immaterial therefore can either be a Mind or Abstract Object such as numbers(The Mind is immaterial and we'll get to that later), Abstract objects cause nothing, therefore a Mind.

4, Fine Tuning, The Universe is so fine tuned for life that there's only 3 possibilities as to why,

Law, Chance, or Design. Cannot be law or chance, since Law can be different and Chance is Extremely Improbable that it's Factual it didn't happen that way, therefore Obviously Designed.

5, Only 2 types of causes. Accidential/Mindless or Intentional/Mind, Accidents require a prior cause, therefore cannot be accidential therefore caused on Purpose, God exists.

6, All "naturalistic" theories are Impossible.

1, "naturalism" is disproven by The Universe being caused so by default Supernatural and Immaterial exists.

2, Nothing existed and nothing causes nothing, the "nothing causes something" Quantum Mechanics argument proposed by w-child has been thrown in the fire with these facts,

1, The Quantum Vaccum isn't empty space.

2, Nothing cannot cause something with this fact,

The Cause of an effect must be equivelent or greater than it's effect,

Nothing has no properties, something has properties. so for nothing to cause something it would need the properties to do so, so if nothing caused something, it needs to properties of something rendering it to be something instead of nothing! and if nothing caused something it would need the properties from something eternal rendering it again not nothing.

Nothing can only cause, nothing.

and the "universe caused itself" argument(whoever posed this argument needs their liscense revoked, is automatically void as if the universe caused itself it would have already needed to exist!.

And lastly as proven in #5 can only have been caused on purpose.

There is no naturalistic explanation as 1, Supernatural exist, 2, it's impossible for nothing to cause something and 3, it is an impossiblity for The First Uncaused Cause to cause on accident.

#7, Creation ex nihilo proves The Bible is even more Scientifically Accurate and Correct, Creation ex Nihilo proves God exists and God is The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit who is 1 God that is 3 Persons.

Dualism


1. If the mind was the brain or any material then everything we do, all thoughts, actions, plans, will, cognitive functions etc would be accidential, rendering free will nonexistent. Free Will exists therefore the mind cannot be material.

you therefore have 3 choices,

1, No Director(mind), rendering nerve signals random, which is false since we do have a mind and do direct our nerve signals, that is a fact.

2, Material Director which is false since it would be the same as no director because there would be no direction to energy signals.

3, Immaterial Director where nerve signals can be directed.

2. material is mindless, when you laugh, do your cheeks or hands, or face know what your laughing about? no, they're just a piece of meat, it knows nothing, such as your eyeballs, fingers etc.

3. Immaterial Properties exist, Love, Emotions, Abstract Objects(Numbers), Data, Feelings, Beliefs, Delusions, Fantasies, all exist, yet aren't material.

For example, what is material about the data you're reading off this sentence? Physically it's energy signals hitting your screen, now unless you say the data isn't real, then it's Immaterial.

4, Thoughts are not material, and if they are material whatever causes them cannot be material.

Think of a pink giant elephant, now if your head was cut open would we find that elephant? no. can anyone hear what you're thinking? nope, it's not material.

When you talk to someone, are you talking to a person or just flesh? if you say the latter than you might as well say you can talk to the wall and be perfectly fine.

5. Color is not material.

6, Here's an experiment, Hit your hand on the desk, feel the pain? now it is a fact that you are not your hand, if we cut off your hand and the nerves in it you would be incapable of feeling it. this means the reason you feel your hand is because of a connection to you(can be brain or Immaterial Spirit, I'm allowing both for experiment)

Now lets assume your mind is your brain as most "atheist" assume, and the brain is the connection to the hand, now if your brain is what is allowing you to feel your hand, then that is impossible, if you're your brain, when your hand gets hit, you'd feel the pain in your head, not your hand. now you cannot say the brain sending energy signals to the hand is causing the pain since you aren't your hand! we can cut it off and you won't be able to feel it anymore.

The Only Possibility is that your hand is connected to your brain and you are an Immaterial Substance that can feel the hand, otherwise there is no possiblity of feeling your hand.

7, Third, I believe it is important to note that some of the world’s foremost neuroscientists have believed that the mind is immaterial. These neuroscientists have been well aware that stimulating the brain can produce some intriguing psychological results. One of the pioneers in the field of neuroscience was Wilder Penfield. In his fascinating book The Mystery of the Mind, he writes the following:


When I have caused a conscious patient to move his hand by applying an electrode to the motor cortex of one hemisphere, I have often asked him about it. Invariably his response was: ‘I didn’t do that. You did.’ When I caused him to vocalize, he said: ‘I didn’t make that sound. You pulled it out of me.’ When I caused the record of the stream of consciousness to run again and so presented to him the record of his past experience, he marveled that he should be conscious of the past as well as of the present. He was astonished that it should come back to him so completely, with more detail than he could possibly recall voluntarily. He assumed at once that, somehow, the surgeon was responsible for the phenomenon, but he recognized the details as those of his own past experience. (76)


Penfield goes on to note that “There is no place in the cerebral cortex where electrical stimulation will cause a patient . . . to decide” (77). This is consistent with my point that choices are undetermined events with a teleological explanation. In light of his work as a neuroscientist, Penfield concludes the following: “For my own part, after years of striving to explain the mind on the basis of brain-action alone, I have come to the conclusion that it is simpler (and far easier and logical) if one adopts the hypothesis that our being does consist of two fundamental elements” (80).



Read more: God and Mind/Body Dualism | Reasonable Faith

8, Last but not least, Scientific Fact that every cell in our bodies die and regenerate with new cells, that by every 7 years we are completely new material beings. now I know I'm the same person I was in 1998, I'm the same guy who's been through 2 1/2 new material bodies already yet I'm the same mind, therefore it is a Scientific Fact that human beings are Immaterial beings/Spirits controlling material bodies.

"materialism", "atheism", "agnostics", etc are all dead already without even going into "macro-evolution.

Morality.

Morals are Immaterial Properties, under "naturalism" Immaterial wouldn't exist.

Under "naturalism", things such as rape would have no reason for being wrong and could actually be justified.

rape is Objectively Wrong, there is a reason for that. under "naturalism" there is no reason and it would be justified under "naturalism", therefore "naturalism" is fairy tales, Therefore God must Necessarily exist.

"macro-evolution"

"macro-evolution" cannot explain morals.

"macro-evolution" is impossible.

People base an assumption that multiple bouts of Micro-Evolution produces "macro", Micro means within a species. dogs evolving will only ever be, dogs.

Irreducible Complexity,

Heart, lungs, Kidney, Liver, Brain, Veins, Blood, etc take one out and everything fails, must have been given at once.

and

Darwinism Refuted.com

Apparent Design, Symmetry, and Immaterial Properties such as Data(DNA), Immune System, Apparent Design that even "atheist"/"evolutionist" don't deny!(They even say, it "just appears designed", Nothing appears Intelligently Designed Unless, Intelligently Designed, throw that logic in the fire.)

Billions of transitional fossils needed, even if fossils are hard to find as most "atheist" say, I'll allow that excuse, however under that excuse Millions are needed, still aren't a million, "macro-evolution" is false.

"macro-evolution" is incapable with "naturalism", God must exist for "macro-evolution" to happen, therefore "macro-evolution" along with the other evidence didn't happen. therefore advocates for "macro-evolution" cannot be "atheist" and if they are an "atheist"/"naturalist" then they cannot be an advocate of "macro-evolution"

With that said God Factually Exists, and God is The Trinity of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Time to prepare for Eternity.

Actually, the vast majority of Christians (and non-Christians) believe that the Christian afterlife is Heaven (eternal bliss) vs. Hell (eternal suffering). Right or wrong, you're in the minority.

Nope, see you know as much as matter. Christianity/The Bible never teaches an "afterlife" but, Eternal Life, the life your livin' now ain't ending. if your with God(The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) now you'll be Spiritually gifted now and forever in the future, culminating when your physical body dies or/and when Jesus Christ Returns. but if your without Him, your Spiritually now and forevermore in misery or so lost that you don't care, all culminating when Jesus Christ Returns and you'll be in for eternal shame and dishonor because of your own fault.

Don't get me wrong, annihilation is far superior to eternal suffering

Because that's what you want to hear.

(and side-steps major theological issues), but I'm surprised you think most Christians share this belief.

Nope, actually it is immoral, sin needs punishment for eternity and the punishment is eternal shame and dishonor(Hell), what's the punishment for murder? life in prison or the death penalty. since God exists, hating, cheating, rape, shame dishonor, etc are all worse than murder(not saying murder isn't wrong, don't be the slanderous person that you are, just away took your opportunity to slander me) if you hate or hurt someone emotionally, you commit an eternal crime to that person.

annihilation is actually immoral and is actually what you want to hear.
 
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Elendur

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1, I'm sure you were raised better than that.

2, The Image is by a burst of light, kind of like an x ray, get over it, it's a Fact.



The video is a study/examination.



Sure you aren't...



Nope, all evidence points to this being from Jesus Christ, learn to listen/read and not curse and have an attitude of a 5 year old girl,

Jerusalem Pollen from March/April
over-exaggerated suffering for a crucifixion victim(crucified victims didn't suffer that much, only known is Jesus Christ)
flogging
29AD Pontius Pilate coin on the eye(or eyes) clear giveaway.
peired on side(Jesus Christ was pierced in side instead of getting legs broken)
legs intact(crucified victims would get their legs broken, man on Shroud didn't, also Jesus Christ instead of getting legs broken was prieced in side, another clear giveaway.)
Looks like Historical Jesus Christ
Image caused by a Miracle(Looks like Jesus Christ and is miraclous, obviously Jesus Christ)

but most obvious is crown of thorns, man on shroud = Jesus Christ
I'm done with you. You have the exact same tactic as another user named 'dad'. I wouldn't be surprised if you were his son (assuming 94 represents your year of birth).

If you want to discuss something with me in the future, make sure you understand these three terms:
Evidence
Proof
Facts

Additional tip: Humbleness, look into it.
 
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Jamin4422

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why should I try and find this evidence?
That is up to you. IF God has something you want, then go for it. If you feel He has nothing to offer then keep on doing what your doing. That is your choice.

you implied that your belief was the most common one
As far as I know all Christians believe in eternal life. That means a resurrection. I do not think many are annihilationists. God is still a God of justice. No one gets away with anything. They still suffer for their sin. But at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Christ all those who are not saved or redeemed are thrown into the lake of fire and that is the second death. No one comes out of there alive. The Bible says almost nothing directly about what happens to people in the lake of fire. So I can see why that would be a problem for people.
 
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FreeinChrist

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MOD HAT

This thread has had a clean up. If your post is missing, it is because it was in violation of the rules or responding to a post that was a violation.

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