To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

[GaryArnold]

But He used people to give it to them.
Nehemia 13:10
And I perceived that the portions of the Levites had not been given"them": for the Levites and the singers, that did the work, were fled every one to his field.

I don't think you understand the scripture you quoted.

God gave the Levites the tithe. The Levites lived in the Levitical cities, not at the Temple, so the tithe went with them to their cities. The Levites served at the Temple approximately two weeks per year ON A ROTATION BASIS. When they went to the Temple to serve, they took enough food from the tithe with them so they would have enough to eat while serving. The tithe was stored for them. The priests essentially stole the Levites portion of the food (tithe). That is the robbing God of the tithe spoken of in Malachi 3. Therefore, the Levites had no food to eat at the Temple and had to go back to their own fields.

As far as God using people, of course He does. HE puts it in the hearts of believers to give generously if and when HE wants to. The pastor need not beg for tithes and offerings. GOD will take care of it.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

But it should be the primary responsibility of the church to care for the ones in need.

Yes. Good point.

Something else that needs pointing out is that the Church is not represented by buildings, professional staffing, lawns, parking lots, etc.

Groups of people who are members of a group with a building do fail in many ways. Church organizations do not represent the Church.

They cared for all the widows who had nothing.

They didn't care for ALL the widows who had nothing. They cared ONLY for those widows where known for their humility and service to their families and the community around them.

Now they care about a building and a pastor getting payed. But some pastors have enough and are not in debt and have a big church, while they ask their members who are in debt to tithe.

Yes. Another good point. There are some really bad characters out there.

I'm not going to give 10 percent of my income to someone who has enough and doesn't give it to the people who need it.

Amen.

BTW

 

[Source Scripture]

But it should be the primary responsibility of the church to care for the ones in need. They cared for the widows who had nothing. Now they care about a building and a pastor getting payed. But some pastors have enough and are not in debt and have a big church, while they ask their members who are in debt to tithe. I'm not going to give 10 percent of my income to someone who has enough and doesn't give it to the people who need it.

It's not just the big or mega churches for that matter, often a local pastor draws a salary that's much more than those in his congregation. So when the pastor sees his lower income congregant at the mall, using coupons stuggling along, he can flip a wave at him when he sees the lower income earner, as he, the pastor, heads into the higher end stores, that the lower income earner, who pays his salary, can't patronize. As they say, "politics is local". Source Scripture.

 

[WordofHisPower]

What anti-tithers are overlooking is God commanded the tithe in the OT, Christ said to keep tithing in Matthew 23:23, and Paul said Christ is our new high priest to whom tithes are due in Hebrews 7.

If you think your pastor is greedy find a good church, mission, or ministry to tithe to.

 

[Messy]

What anti-tithers are overlooking is God commanded the tithe in the OT, Christ said to keep tithing in Matthew 23:23, and Paul said Christ is our new high priest to whom tithes are due in Hebrews 7.

If you think your pastor is greedy find a good church, mission, or ministry to tithe to.

The pastor of the church I sometimes attend is not greedy, but he is retired and has an income and a big house. Why should I tithe to him? They only have to pay a bit of rent and there are a lot of people tithing there. I just give it to another pastor who can't even buy food, because he works with former addicted people with no money and why can't you give to people in need, Jesus gave to the poor. If people can't tithe, I always learned that they could give something and start sawing. People who are in a project of getting rid of their debts aren't even allowed to tithe from the institute that helps them. I know an example. They just gave something and now they have enough and are out of debt.
The situation in the USA is extreme. Here it's often the other way around. Members with money and a pastor with debts. My ex got 900 a month in good times (of which 300 Iwe ourselves tithed, bit stupid) and there was also money to give to church members in need, and a lot of pastors here wished they got so much, most of them got nothing. Paul didn't buy himself a big house with a swimming pool. Jesus didn't even have a house, I've been taught He had, but can't find it in the Bible.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

What anti-tithers are overlooking is God commanded the tithe in the OT,

Ok. I'll play along:

True.

He commanded those who were under the Law to tithe.

Christ said to keep tithing in Matthew 23:23,

True.

He told those who were still under the Law at that time to continue titheing.

Something else that's true:

Jesus also told those who were still under the Law at that time to offer up burnt sacrifices in Luke 5. I doubt you obey that.

and Paul said Christ is our new high priest to whom tithes are due in Hebrews 7.

False.

Paul said nothing of the kind. anywhere in that chapter.

If you think your pastor is greedy find a good church, mission, or ministry to tithe to.

False.

First and foremost, we are to follow the example of scripture, which is to meet the needs of fellow believers, not apply our giving to support dead buidings and programs from which the so-called "giver" reaps benefit. That's exemplified nowhere in scripture.

And for those who seem to think "pastor" appears on almost every other page of the NT, get over it. Pastoring is a task for ALL believers rather than to hire YOUR job out to some other poor sap who ends up overworked because you've made him your pathetic hireling.

Lazy people always hire someone else to do what they should be, and need to be, doing themselves.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

The pastor of the church I sometimes attend is not greedy, but he is retired and has an income and a big house. Why should I tithe to him? They only have to pay a bit of rent and there are a lot of people tithing there. I just give it to another pastor who can't even buy food, because he works with former addicted people with no money and why can't you give to people in need, Jesus gave to the poor. If people can't tithe, I always learned that they could give something and start sawing. People who are in a project of getting rid of their debts aren't even allowed to tithe from the institute that helps them. I know an example. They just gave something and now they have enough and are out of debt.
The situation in the USA is extreme. Here it's often the other way around. Members with money and a pastor with debts. My ex got 900 a month in good times (of which 300 Iwe ourselves tithed, bit stupid) and there was also money to give to church members in need, and a lot of pastors here wished they got so much, most of them got nothing. Paul didn't buy himself a big house with a swimming pool. Jesus didn't even have a house, I've been taught He had, but can't find it in the Bible.

Good points, Messy.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

What manner of man will say to another, "Handing over your giving to the clergy is the same thing as giving to Jesus"?

1 John 4:1 says, "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."

Hmm. Such a man is akin to a false prophet.

False teacher - false prohpet.

No difference!

Jesus said this in Matt. 25:40:

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

He wasn't talking about clergy. He was talking about what we do unto ANY who are His, even the least.

So, when I give unto a brother or sister in Christ who is in need, I have given unto Christ Jesus.

When I fail to give in support of a dead building, its bills and its busy-body programs because I have met needs of fellow believers, I have done nothing wrong against the Lord because those THINGS are not representative of Jesus. The passing of all those buildings and the programs will not hinder the work of the Lord through His TRUE followers.

1) People - 2) things, or
1) Things - 2) people.

Those are the choices one has before him when considering which is the higher priority. This is a no-brainer.

However, the false teachers (pro-required-tithing hounds) out there will hypocritically practice the latter while giving lip service to the former.

He or she ignores the clear evidence that contradicts their false teachings because they are products of a system that is self-seeking and hypcritical, conveying the idea that utilizing the leftovers as the substance for allegedly benevolent outreaches is somehow sufficient, and therefore proof positive that God is behind them.

Oh, the hypocrisy, falsehoods, deceptions and intellectual dishonesty.....not to mention the many inconsistencies with scripture and the revelations of the Holy Spirit within each believer.

BTW

 

[Frogster]

Ok. I'll play along:

True.

He commanded those who were under the Law to tithe.



True.

He told those who were still under the Law at that time to continue titheing.

Something else that's true:

Jesus also told those who were still under the Law at that time to offer up burnt sacrifices in Luke 5. I doubt you obey that.



False.

Paul said nothing of the kind. anywhere in that chapter.



False.

First and foremost, we are to follow the example of scripture, which is to meet the needs of fellow believers, not apply our giving to support dead buidings and programs from which the so-called "giver" reaps benefit. That's exemplified nowhere in scripture.

And for those who seem to think "pastor" appears on almost every other page of the NT, get over it. Pastoring is a task for ALL believers rather than to hire YOUR job out to some other poor sap who ends up overworked because you've made him your pathetic hireling.

Lazy people always hire someone else to do what they should be, and need to be, doing themselves.

BTW

good one on Luke 5.

 

[Messy]

Are you talking about a man-made principle, OR a principle that comes from the scriptures?

The Biblical tithe was never money and never came from anyone's income. The one tithe that supported the priesthood (the Levitical tithe) was given to the Levites BY GOD, not by the Israelites. The Israelites merely transported the tenth to the Levites.

No one "gave back to God a tenth" as incorrectly taught by many pastors.

There is a principle in the 3-year tithe, feeding the poor, and that is repeated in the New Testament. We are to give where there is a need.

Those who speak of a "tithing principle" need to understand that 10% is not a principle. The only principle I get from the Levitical tithe is that God will take care of supporting the priesthood. To carry forward the 10% is the most legalistic part of any Biblical tithe.

It's time pastors start trusting that GOD, not man, will provide for their needs. Let GOD decide how He will provide.

I didn't know that. Here's a tithing test. It has to be 12%, by the way, for the ones who believe you must tithe. Desperate Tithing Or Financial Faith? by Terry Somerville
What I find a problem with the teaching of tithing: if you tithe, you don't have the feeling you are giving and God is happy with it, because you just have to do it and it's His and otherwise you're stealing. It's indeed very legalistic.

 

[GaryArnold]

I didn't know that. Here's a tithing test. It has to be 12%, by the way, for the ones who believe you must tithe.

That is not correct. Tithe means a tenth or tenth part. 12% is not a tithe. Here is the error:

You could REDEEM, or BUY, the tithe of crops for a 20% penalty; thus, you would essentially being paying 12% in money. But the tithe, itself, was the crops, not the money. Leviticus 27:31. Remember, the tenth of the crops didn't belong to the farmers to begin with, but they could BUY that tenth if they wanted to, at a 20% penalty.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Any church oranization that can't survive because of it being supported secondarily after the needs of people, then those organizations deserve no less than to disolve down into the dust for not living up to their own teachings....such as LIVING WITHIN ONE'S MEANS.

BTW

 

[boldlion]

I don't think you understand the scripture you quoted.

God gave the Levites the tithe. The Levites lived in the Levitical cities, not at the Temple, so the tithe went with them to their cities. The Levites served at the Temple approximately two weeks per year ON A ROTATION BASIS. When they went to the Temple to serve, they took enough food from the tithe with them so they would have enough to eat while serving. The tithe was stored for them. The priests essentially stole the Levites portion of the food (tithe). That is the robbing God of the tithe spoken of in Malachi 3. Therefore, the Levites had no food to eat at the Temple and had to go back to their own fields.

As far as God using people, of course He does. HE puts it in the hearts of believers to give generously if and when HE wants to. The pastor need not beg for tithes and offerings. GOD will take care of it.

Where is the scriptural support for this notion that the priests stole from the levites ?

 

[lismore]

Where is the scriptural support for this notion that the priests stole from the levites ?

In the book of Malachi I believe.

 

[GaryArnold]

Where is the scriptural support for this notion that the priests stole from the levites ?

It's scripture, not a "notion."

Read and study Nehemiah 13. While the Levites left because their food was taken, the priests stayed. Now you tell me - who had the food?

"If Nehemiah 13 is the context of Malachi 3:8-10, then it makes perfect sense. The priests, who had already been cursed by God three times in Malachi are NOT suddenly the ones to be pitied, because they are receiving another curse. They had taken the tithes OUT OF THE STOREHOUSE and withheld them from the Levites! Therefore, God is telling the PRIESTS in Malachi 3:10 to bring “ALL the tithe” that belongs in the empty storeroom back to that storeroom, especially the portion they had stolen from the Levites. Also, we have in Nehemiah a plain historical event of what is most likely the context of Malachi 3:8-10, especially in the light of the necessary cleansing of the priesthood from Malachi 3:1-4."
Should the Church Teach Tithing
by Russell E. Kelly, Ph.D.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Traditional churchianity teaches their people Malachi was addressing ALL the people since, as the pro-required-tithing camp believes, everyone was required to hand over a tenth of not only the increase from the producing fields, orchards, vineyards, herds and flocks, but also from wages.

It makes no never-mind to them that what they believe is completely indefensible from the scriptures.

It's what they believe, and nothing else matters.

BTW

 

[BeforeThereWas]

I recall someone in this thread claimed the NT example of giving was a one-time event.

I'm not sure what reference was specifically addressed, but having studied NT giving numerous times, I must say such a claim, although false, still fails to lend any credible support for drawing a parallel between the modern and historic traditition of religious institutions robbing God by using only the leftovers for meeting needs after seeing primarily to the needs of the facility expenditures.

Paradise may very well hold within its grasp the many earthly remembrances of how simplistically deceived churchianity people were here on earth to be so evil in their hearts to place a facility as a higher priority above fellow brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.

BTW

 

[Frogster]

I recall someone in this thread claimed the NT example of giving was a one-time event.

I'm not sure what reference was specifically addressed, but having studied NT giving numerous times, I must say such a claim, although false, still fails to lend any credible support for drawing a parallel between the modern and historic traditition of religious institutions robbing God by using only the leftovers for meeting needs after seeing primarily to the needs of the facility expenditures.

Paradise may very well hold within its grasp the many earthly remembrances of how simplistically deceived churchianity people were here on earth to be so evil in their hearts to place a facility as a higher priority above fellow brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.

BTW

if u mean me, i meant that the 2 cor 8-9 jerusalem money, was for them in that one time event to give if they have it, but tithe teachers use it forever on their congregation, taking the one time event, and turning it into a lifleong one, using the one time event verses of 2 cor 8-9 sunday after sunday.

 

[Frogster]

I recall someone in this thread claimed the NT example of giving was a one-time event.

I'm not sure what reference was specifically addressed, but having studied NT giving numerous times, I must say such a claim, although false, still fails to lend any credible support for drawing a parallel between the modern and historic traditition of religious institutions robbing God by using only the leftovers for meeting needs after seeing primarily to the needs of the facility expenditures.

Paradise may very well hold within its grasp the many earthly remembrances of how simplistically deceived churchianity people were here on earth to be so evil in their hearts to place a facility as a higher priority above fellow brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus.

BTW

i see your from Ok, i don't agree with les feldick on his 2 gospel theory, but at least he knows the tithing is wrong, and says that he would never take money from old people on a fixed budget, this as he lives in a state we could call tithe central.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

if u mean me, i meant that the 2 cor 8-9 jerusalem money, was for them in that one time event to give if they have it, but tithe teachers use it forever on their congregation, taking the one time event, and turning it into a lifleong one, using the one time event verses of 2 cor 8-9 sunday after sunday.

Nope. It wasn't you, and it wasn't about that passage. The other person claimed there are no ongoing examples of giving to meet needs beyond a one-time event of giving....anywhere in the NT. I know that to be false because of what scripture does say.

BTW