NT or OT?

[visionary]

ACTS 15?

Yes, that is the start of learning the Law of Moses that is taught every Sabbath at the synagogue.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by dollarsbill Or you folks can start a thread in a legit forum for debating. Unless you see there might be truth to contend with?

So here is not "legit"? I have a feeling that you may have pushed your "guest" status just a wee bit too far! Veiled insults are not appreciated.

I think he should gracefully retreat back to the GT board.

http://www.christianforums.com/f80/

 

[Lion King]

Yes, that is the start of learning the Law of Moses that is taught every Sabbath at the synagogue.

What did the apostles say to the Gentiles regarding the Law of Moses in Acts 15?

 

[visionary]

What did the apostles say to the Gentiles regarding the Law of Moses in Acts 15?

Here are four things to start and the rest you can learn from the teaching of the law of Moses every Sabbath at the synagogue.

 

[mishkan]

What did the apostles say to the Gentiles regarding the Law of Moses in Acts 15?

That they are obvious newbies, and should get some slack until they learn more.

The list given is neither exhaustive nor comprehensive. Think for just a moment how much you take for granted in our modern culture that is not listed there. There is nothing in Acts 15 about not murdeing. No mention of not stealing. Not even an admonition to pray regularly.

There is no way on earth that anyone could pretend this list in Acts 15:20 represents anything like a complete religious life. It was given only as an introductory--and arguably, an exemplary--set of regulations to help guide the rank beginners seeking admission to the sect of Judaism we know as "Messianic".

 

[Lion King]

Here are four things to start and the rest you can learn from the teaching of the law of Moses every Sabbath at the synagogue.

Thank you for you time. I have all I needed to know.

May the LORD bless you.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

What did the apostles say to the Gentiles regarding the Law of Moses in Acts 15?

Acts 15 is an interesting passage.

Depending on whom you ask, the answers will vary. But within mainstream MJism, the focus is generally upon the Noahide laws and seeing how what was discussed with the Noahide laws is well accepted--as well as addressed often when it comes to alot of specious claims on their being later developments after Christ. Most of it comes due to seeing certain phrases about "one law" in the OT/choosing to interpret it as seeing all of the laws given specifically to the Hebrews as being the same to those given to the Gentiles within Israel..and there has been alot of correction on that from most Messianic Jewish organizations that're prominent when it comes to addressing within scripture where distinction between groups was plain in the OT. ...and for places to go where discussion often occurred, one can go here, here, here, here, or #1 , #15 and #170/here at Comments concerning the Noachide Law, the Mosaic Law, Judaism ... for some places to consider.



IMHO, Torah is a "function word" that expresses our responsibility in light of the covenantal acts of God. As the author of the Book of Hebrews makes clear: "When there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the Torah as well" (Heb. 7:12). The Levitical priesthood expresses the truth of the Covenant of Sinai, whereas the priesthood of Yeshua (after the order of Malki-Tzedek, Genesis 14) expresses the truth of the New Covenant. Both work together--but only in seeing what Yeshua emphasized can one have fullness of clarity, IMHO. For more, one can go here, here , here or examine the work of the Messianic Jews over at what's called "Rosh Pina Project"--seen in The Noahide “Framework” | - The Rosh Pina Project or here at Gentiles in the Messianic movement: Bnei Noach or Bnei Avraham? | ... -The Rosh Pina Project


The Torah/Law given by the Lord have always been instructive/useful and beautiful in a myriad of ways--but there are many things which occurred outside of the Mosaic Law which were always on the heart of the Lord....and rather than saying with Acts 15 that only the Mosaic Law noted such things, I'd say it echoed things that were already in existence...like, in example, noting the need for grain/animal sacrifices even though that had been going on for ages since Adam/Eve and their sons lived in Genesis 4 (more discussed in #5 and #182 ). On the Noahide controversy, as one individual wisely said best on the subject (for a brief excerpt):

Acts 15:20, 29


. . . that you abstain from meat that has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what has been strangled and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from doing these things, you will do well. Farewell (Acts 15:29).

(1) The prohibition against eating blood is NOT from the Mosaic law. It is from Genesis 9:2-4, which obviously predates Mosaic law. This is a universal prohibition for the entire human race and for all time. (If you try to argue that it is not, you must also argue that the prohibition against murder is not.)

(2) According to Genesis 9:3-4, blood is not food. It does not say that blood is a forbidden food; it says that blood is not food (for, just as God defined food in Genesis 1:29 as plant matter, here He defines food as plant matter and animal flesh, excluding blood).

(3) Whenever one bleeds an animal killed for meat, he has fulfilled the command of Genesis 9 not to eat meat with the blood. (By the way, eating a rare steak is not sin, as long as the meat was properly bled when it was slaughtered. A small amount of blood always remains in meat even after bleeding. Further, cooking meat so that it no longer appears red does not remove the tiny bit of blood that remains – it simply changes its color.) To put it more precisely, in Genesis 9 God forbids the INTENTIONAL eating of blood – either by extracting blood and drinking it, or by intentionally leaving it in meat slaughtered for consumption. This is because “the life is in the blood” (Leviticus 17:11). There is something fundamentally wrong with eating what still has the life in it. This is related to the whole concept of sacrifice that is so central to Christ’s redeeming work, for in the spilling of blood there is the taking of life. It is also one of the reasons why many pagan religions advocate the eating of blood. (In fact, there is a whole pagan theology of eating one’s enemies in order to absorb their life-force, but that is a matter for another time. . . .)

(4) Fornication is also something that God universally prohibits, though it is more difficult to find this in Scripture by chapter and verse. I believe that Genesis 2:24 essentially establishes the only context in which sexual relations are approved by God: marriage. This is not a merely Mosaic regulation; it is universally binding on all of mankind. It is clear that God forbids fornication (i.e. sexual immorality – any kind of sex outside of marriage) even among pagans. Again, the prohibition against fornication is not a Mosaic prohibition, but a universal one.

(5) Idolatry is obviously also something that God universally forbids. This hardly needs to be supported (see Romans 1:22-25 for just one example).

(6) The conclusion is clear. The four things prohibited in the Acts 15 letter are all NON-MOSAIC, universal regulations. They are, and always have been, universally binding on all humans. They are, however, also strongly emphasized in Mosaic law. Pagan society in the first century was woefully unaware of these universal regulations – except through the teaching of the Hebrew Scriptures (hence James’ comment in Acts 15:21). When the Jerusalem church agreed that Mosaic regulations should not be imposed on the Gentile believers, they recognized that with the rejection of Mosaic regulations as binding on Gentile Christians, it might be understood that the prohibitions against idolatry, eating blood, eating strangled meat, and fornication should also be thrown out, as they were only generally known through Mosaic law. The church was careful to restate these regulations not because they wanted to avoid scandalizing Jewish believers, but because they were and are and always will be universally binding on all mankind. They did not want to appear to be condoning what God had universally condemned.


........The only requirement placed on the Gentile believers was that they “abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication” (verse 25). The problem seems to be in what the Jerusalem Council did not say about Jewish practice. The Jerusalem elders probably clarified the fact that Jewish Christians could continue to keep the law, not as a means to salvation, but as an expression of love and obedience.

They could delight in the law, not because it gave them any merit or standing before God, but because it had been fulfilled in Christ, and because they were now righteous in God’s sight. The standards of righteousness which the law upheld were now no longer a cause of fear, but the basis for rejoicing and worship. They once were frustrated by their own failure to fulfill the laws demands, but now they rejoiced because Christ had fulfilled the entire law and they were not under the curse. And the kingdom to which the Old Testament saint looked forward was a certainty, which Jewish and Gentile saints would receive together (see Hebrews 11:39-40).

....Paul’s very strong words in the Book of Galatians were addressed to those who would impose the law and law-keeping on Gentile believers, not toward those who were true believers and who wished, as Jewish Christians, to continue to live in accordance with the law and to observe Old Testament rituals. It was one (damnable) thing for Judaisers to insist that Gentile saints must keep the law in order to be saved, and quite another for Jewish Christians to keep the law because they were saved. Even Gentiles were not turned away from the law, but were enabled to fulfill its requirements:

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit (Romans 8:1-4).

​

​

Additionally, as the Messianic Jews/Gentiles over at "First Fruits of Zion" said best:

We encourage Gentile believers to take hold of the uniquely Jewish aspects of Torah observance such as Sabbath, the festivals, and the biblical dietary laws as part of their walk of discipleship.However, we also acknowledge that the apostles did not require the Gentile believers to do so. They wrote to the Gentiles as follows:

For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell. (Acts 15:28-29)
​

Obviously the Gentile believers have more obligations to Torah than just these four commandments. We believe that the Gentile believers kept the commandments of Torah like their fellow God-fearing Gentiles in the synagogues. They kept as much as they could, but were not legally liable for certain Jewish distinctive: the commandments of circumcision, Sabbath, festivals, and Levitical dietary laws. That means that the God-fearing Gentiles could not be punished by the leadership of the Jewish community for failure to keep those particular commandments because they were not legally "under the law" in the same way that Jewish people were.
​

Again, there are many Messianic Jews who've long pointed out that the Gentiles were given the requirements they did not because they were ever expected to do all of the other things the Lord asked of the Jewish people - but because those things were areas where there was the most common ground.

Some may argue that it's problematic to think of the list as comprehensive, yet that would assume that other cultures don't already talk on things within their own groups that were also an issue in Jewish culture. There'd be no need for the list given in Acts 15 to mention murder since it was already a common thing for murder to be condemned in multiple places - and the same thing with other things like stealing and adultery.

 

[yedida]

What did the apostles say to the Gentiles regarding the Law of Moses in Acts 15?

Here is a comprehensive list of what the Noahide Laws for gentiles are:
Hasidic University

 

[visionary]

Any further study in to Noahide faith, will lead a gentile in having to drop Jesus or lose their life by beheadment, as Noahide directs.. which would not be something Yeshua nor the apostles would want to have happen... so thinking that Acts 15 instructions are Noahide is a dead end.

 

[Lion King]

Here is a comprehensive list of what the Noahide Laws for gentiles are:
Hasidic University

Interesting.

Are all Gentiles required to follow this law?

+212) To have multiple children

Application to gentiles:
Required

Mandated punishment for violation:
From Heaven

Brief description:
For every man to have, at minimum, one son and one daughter who are themselves able to reproduce, so at the very least to replace their parents in the next generation. The spirit and intent of this commandment, however, is to have as many children as possible, without limit.

Examples:

Not to use birth control or family planning.
To divorce one’s wife after ten years of marriage if there are no children, to allow remarriage to others and therefore the possiblity of having children.


Hasidic University


PS. Also interesting to note what that website says regarding divorce. Mighty interesting, indeed!

 

[visionary]

Interesting.

Are all Gentiles required to follow this law?

+212) To have multiple children

Application to gentiles:
Required

Mandated punishment for violation:
From Heaven

Brief description:
For every man to have, at minimum, one son and one daughter who are themselves able to reproduce, so at the very least to replace their parents in the next generation. The spirit and intent of this commandment, however, is to have as many children as possible, without limit.

Examples:

Not to use birth control or family planning.
To divorce one’s wife after ten years of marriage if there are no children, to allow remarriage to others and therefore the possiblity of having children.


Hasidic University


PS. Also interesting to note what that website says regarding divorce. Mighty interesting, indeed!

The whole history and purpose of Noahide laws for gentiles is an intersting study in and of itself.

 

[Lion King]

The whole history and purpose of Noahide laws for gentiles is an intersting study in and of itself.

It sure is, especially if you try to reconcile that law supposedly given to Noah (regarding reproduction and divorce) with the words of Christ.

 

[yedida]

Any further study in to Noahide faith, will lead a gentile in having to drop Jesus or lose their life by beheadment, as Noahide directs.. which would not be something Yeshua nor the apostles would want to have happen... so thinking that Acts 15 instructions are Noahide is a dead end.

Not all of those sub-commandments apply nowadays, I would imagine.
But there's a lot of folks becoming B'nei Noahide. I've always wondered why not just convert to Judiasm instead. It's never made sense to me

Also, what's weird is that there are 613 laws in the Torah, but 622 laws for the Noahide. Does that make any sense?
I mainly posted that because it shows that there are far more commandments (sub-commands) within the 4 that were listed in Acts 15.
Of course, just like the 613 cannot all be observed today, neither can all of the sub-laws of the Noahide Laws all be obeyed today - different government.

 

[yedida]

It sure is, especially if you try to reconcile that law supposedly given to Noah (regarding reproduction and divorce) with the words of Christ.

See post #93.
We cannot obey all of the Noahide laws today for the same reason we cannot obey all of the 613 of Torah - different government(s) that people live under.
Just because we cannot obey some of the commandments does not give us license to disobey those that we can be obedient to.

 

[Lion King]

See post #93.
We cannot obey all of the Noahide laws today for the same reason we cannot obey all of the 613 of Torah - different government(s) that people live under.
Just because we cannot obey some of the commandments does not give us license to disobey those that we can be obedient to.

What does this law have to do with the government (if we were living in China, then you would have a case)? The website you gave me says Gentiles are REQUIRED to keep this supposedly Noahide law. Is this correct?

+212) To have multiple children

Application to gentiles:
Required

Mandated punishment for violation:
From Heaven

Brief description:
For every man to have, at minimum, one son and one daughter who are themselves able to reproduce, so at the very least to replace their parents in the next generation. The spirit and intent of this commandment, however, is to have as many children as possible, without limit.

Examples:

Not to use birth control or family planning.
To divorce one’s wife after ten years of marriage if there are no children, to allow remarriage to others and therefore the possiblity of having children.

 

[visionary]

What does this law have to do with the government (if we were living in China, then you would have a case)? The website you gave me says Gentiles are REQUIRED to keep this supposedly Noahide law. Is this correct?

+212) To have multiple children

Application to gentiles:
Required

Mandated punishment for violation:
From Heaven

Brief description:
For every man to have, at minimum, one son and one daughter who are themselves able to reproduce, so at the very least to replace their parents in the next generation. The spirit and intent of this commandment, however, is to have as many children as possible, without limit.

Examples:

Not to use birth control or family planning.
To divorce one’s wife after ten years of marriage if there are no children, to allow remarriage to others and therefore the possiblity of having children.

Yes, Noahiders approach it via through political avenues, and yes, gentiles are required to obey... do or die mode. Yeshua [Jesus] is not welcome in this "faith".

 

[yedida]

What does this law have to do with the government (if we were living in China, then you would have a case)? The website you gave me says Gentiles are REQUIRED to keep this supposedly Noahide law. Is this correct?

+212) To have multiple children

Application to gentiles:
Required

Mandated punishment for violation:
From Heaven

Brief description:
For every man to have, at minimum, one son and one daughter who are themselves able to reproduce, so at the very least to replace their parents in the next generation. The spirit and intent of this commandment, however, is to have as many children as possible, without limit.

Examples:

Not to use birth control or family planning.
To divorce one’s wife after ten years of marriage if there are no children, to allow remarriage to others and therefore the possiblity of having children.

That's a law that the Haridim themselves obey, Gen. 1:28. (Although I don't know about the divorce after 10 years part.)
Like I said, I posted it just as an interest piece. Many gentiles have chosen to go the route of B'nei Noahide. But I would imagine that not all of the 622 get obeyed.....
And I also posted it to show that the 4 restrictions listed in Acts 15 covered a whole lot more than just simply 4 commandments - each of those 4 had and still have sub-levels to them.

 

[Lion King]

Do you guys know where these "Noahide laws" came from? Was it from the Scriptures or tradition?

 

[Lion King]

That's a law that the Haridim themselves obey, Gen. 1:28. (Although I don't know about the divorce after 10 years part.)
Like I said, I posted it just as an interest piece. Many gentiles have chosen to go the route of B'nei Noahide. But I would imagine that not all of the 622 get obeyed.....
And I also posted it to show that the 4 restrictions listed in Acts 15 covered a whole lot more than just simply 4 commandments - each of those 4 had and still have sub-levels to them.

Is it not also written?

Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” Matthew 19:8-12

How do you reconcile that "Noahide law" with what Christ said?

 

[yedida]

Is it not also written?

Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.” Matthew 19:8-12

How do you reconcile that "Noahide law" with what Christ said?

I don't try to reconcile them. I don't follow them, per se, I follow Torah.