Just how Biblical is the whole "no sex until after the wedding ceremony" thing?

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Girder of Loins

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A serious commitment is a public commitment.

But is the highest point of commitment taken at the public hearing of said commitment, or before? To me, that is the question. If a couple is committed at the level they would be at a ceremonial hearing of the commitment, they can have sex. If they are still working things out or are not committed at that same level, then it would be a sin.

That's why I say in a broad sense, sex before the marriage ceremony is not a sin, as it generally is not. However, for some it may be. It really comes down to personal conviction.
 
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Radagast

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But is the highest point of commitment taken at the public hearing of said commitment, or before?

It's not a real commitment at all if you're not prepared to stand up in public and declare your vows, and take the consequences of breaking them.

And marriage is certainly Biblical; the Bible is full of references to marriage.
 
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Girder of Loins

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It's not a real commitment at all if you're not prepared to stand up in public and declare your vows, and take the consequences of breaking them.

Obviously. Let us say that a couple will have a marriage ceremony, but they feel they are fully committed now. Isn't their commitment level the same?

And marriage is certainly Biblical; the Bible is full of references to marriage.

I've never said that marriage isn't. I just have a different definition for marriage than others, and I think my definition is Biblical.
 
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To the original poster...

I am the same way; I want to know the truth about many different things in scripture and I dig into it to figure them out. I totally understand your desire to know the absolute truth on this and to understand it fully. I'm sure the only reason you are asking is that you are engaged. I've noticed the kind of topics we think about and search out have a tendency to relate to our life experiences and what we are going through at the time. It doesn't mean you want to have sex before marriage, it simply brings up these kinds of questions which you can then ponder, pray about, and search.

So I totally get that. Now to answer your question...

The Bible never mentions a ceremony being required and quite frankly I don't think this is even what the commandment is talking about.

When God says don't commit adultery, don't fornicate, etc - all of these commands which are found in the 10 commandments, paul's writings and various other books scattered through scripture are talking about one underlying thing: how to have a healthy relationship.

God's laws were given in order to give us an abundant life and His ways lead to life. (I'll dig up those texts if you want. I can always remember the text but not where it's found! So annoying) anything that He supports results in life, anything the devil tries to tempt you to do results in death. This death may be an instant thing or it may be a gradual thing that isn't even fully manifest in your life before you die of some other cause. People often don't think lying is bad for example because they are unable to see how it leads towards the path of death as it takes much time for a lie to kill; homicide works much faster.

Throughout history people have done different cultural things that mean a man is being joined to a woman in marriage. These things are cultural and they have varied greatly depending on the time period and the place where the people lived! God does not endorse cultural things and breaking tradition is not breaking commandment. His laws as I said have to do with what tends towards life. They are not preferences of the creator or a stupid check list of random things He makes holy or supports on a whim. ''

Many people believe we should do things because God said so. I disagree. If you read scripture with an attitude to use your brain and study it as you've said you do, you will find that God himself gives the reason why we should follow Him: because He is good and just and true. Because He has something to offer us. The psalmist says forget not all his benefits! His ways give life. We should therefore follow Him in order to achieve that life and those commandments to take hold of that life.

So a marriage ceremony doesn't give life or take it away; it's cultural. God is not concerned with it. What he is concerned with as mentioned earlier, are people who don't comit. There are people who are married but not committed. They cheat on their spouse or they deny them an emotional or sexual bond. They don't let the person get close or they use them just for their body or just for their money. These types of things are against the commandments and against God not because He has decided He doesn't prefer that but because they lead down that path that leads to death; they hurt people. That is what makes something against God or against His will.

There are also people who are more traditionally minded and they can to you "Yes I am committed; I choose to be your wife" and it doesn't sink in in their own minds until they are married. For these people a ceremony is a good idea. For others, choosing that person and confessing to them they want to be their spouse is enough and they really do mean it. It depends on the person.

God's law is about healthy relationships. His laws are for us and one key component to happiness in romantic relationships is commitment. You can't say "I do" in a ceremony and fool God. He will see the time that person spends watching porn instead of being with their spouse. He knows what commitment looks like. It's not a marriage ceremony; it's in the heart and it has to be more genuine than a ritual.

You can't have a happy relationship without commitment; this is what the word teaches, not a ceremony. The world teaches you can be happy while sleeping around. People also say you can sleep with someone for a while and be their bf or gf and then dump them and move on and you will live a happy life. The world also says you don't have to be decisive or make definite choices to be happy. You can half-way commit to people or projects or missions or whatever and it won't make you or others unhappy. God calls all this a lie. You have to decide which argument you believe. It's important to see the underlying and deeper messages of what the Bible is saying. It has little to do with marriage ceremonies )r any ceremonies) and everything to do with kingdom principles that God believes in - because they give life and happiness.

I know someone who just got married who has been with his wife for 15 years. She was the first women he ever dated and he absolutely loves her and is committed to her. Does God see that as not a marriage for all those years and it suddenly became a marriage because of a man-made ceremony? I think not. If more people would do what he did we'd have a very happy world. This guy is following a principle of Jesus' kingdom. You can recognize when someone is because it adds joy to their life that is not a short-term exciting kind of joy but the kind that lasts and builds people up over the long-term.

If more christians were concerned with getting to the root of what Christ's principles are instead of fighting over man made rules down to the very annoying specific and unnecessary details we would become a powerful people that would testify of christ's love. Right now few christians show real genuine love. Love, life, happiness, is what God is all about. This is what we need to show in our lives.
 
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seeingeyes

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Because when I committed myself to my fiance, it was between her, I, and God. Why, Biblically, is that not good enough? Where in the Bible is that not good enough for God?

There is definitely a 'social contract' component to marriage in the Bible that is important. If, say, John and Janie, have a marriage-level commitment for each other, but only John and Janie know it, then is it still a marriage?

I would raise my eyebrows at that (unless there were serious enough mitigating circumstances...like being stranded on a desert island). God is the witness of every marriage, but He shouldn't be the only witness. If the two truly become one, this should be obvious to everyone around them.

Though I wouldn't say that the witnesses need to wear a suit and sign anything. :)

From the perspective of someone who's been married awhile, I would summarize that there are marriages that God recognizes that the state does not.
 
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Read my posts. The idea that sex alone was the way a man and a woman were married is not accurate. I gave three early instances from the OT which demonstrated that the families (in particular the parents) of the couple intending to be married, agreed to the marriage by giving their daughter to the man. Couples didn't just go off and have sex with each other and then declare they were married. There isn't a single instance of this in all of Scripture. Even Eve was given by God to Adam.

The apostle Paul also clearly indicates that marriage allowed for sexual relations, not that sexual relations was marriage. Clearly, then, marriage in the context of Scripture is not the sex act.

Selah.

This is just not true. If it were it would mean that marriages today that the father doesn't approve of are not marriages in God's eyes. Some fathers won't give their daughter away to the man of her choice and try to use their influence to have her marry someone else.
 
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brohammer26

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I agree with leon, Hilo on this subject. I have researched it throughly with the various versions of the bible and greek/hebrew translations. I dont think it is necessary to be married in the tradional sense to be considered married in god's eyes. Fornication is mistranslated and the sexual immorality listed in leviticus dont say anything about pre-marital sex. I look at this just like any other academic thing and search for clear cut no BS evidence on the truth and not what has been distorted by the church and man's tradition.
 
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I think the reason ppl are getting so upset is that many people find it very hard to commit. People have evil hearts and their word isn't enough. They have to be somehow stuck or they will try to get out of the marriage. so having a wedding where all the family comes and saying vows before a pastor makes the ones who are having issues with commitment more likely to commit; it's embarrassing to break up with someone right away after they have publicly been married.

Also getting legally married means you have to go through the process of a divorce. Some people will stay married just because they don't want to go though all the trouble of a divorce or lose money or assets in the process. It definitely discourages many people from divorce. But why is that necessary? I wouldn't want to be married to someone who had to be given roadblocks and obstacles to divorcing me otherwise he couldn't find within himself the ability to hold down a relationship.

The reason people on here are giving you so much trouble is they know the hearts of people aren't perfect and they worry you are one of those people who would be tempted to leave your fiance if you were to have sex with her now. also they worry other people will read your posts and decide to "get married" by just having sex. Then of course those types of people would quickly get a "divorce" by breaking up and just "get married" again to someone else and it would be complete chaos.

But wait a minute it's already complete chaos with the way people sleep around unmarried. and that is what God is concerned about, not a ceremony.
 
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Radagast

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Also getting legally married means you have to go through the process of a divorce

Exactly. With marriage you make a commitment and agree that the community or government can (at least partially) hold you to your word.

If you can walk away at any time, there's no real commitment.
 
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I agree that God knows the heart. But He commands us again and again in His Word to act in such a way as to give evidence of what's in our heart. And this is what a wedding ceremony does. Marriage clearly distinguishes mere fornicators from those who have more serious, committed intentions toward their partner in their heart. It is an outward sign of an inward condition.

I disagree. when I see people get married and treat their spouse badly or never have enough time for them or divorce them later in the marriage for some younger chick I don't think highly of them. I don't think "wow what a great christian couple they did things God's way." You know why? Because they didn't do things God's way. God's way is love and always has been and no ceremony can make someone have love in their heart. God looks approvingly on people who know what commitment really means, not on people who keep man-made traditions.

It's not wrong to have a wedding and it's not right to have a wedding. I believe that people who lack love get concerned with things like this. Since they can't give the real love or commitment God actually requires, the way they try to prove they are on God's side is through whether they keep to all the little rules. "I got married in a marriage ceremony and you didn't so I'm a good christian and you're not a Christian." a real christian wouldn't say that or even care. a real christian would be concerned about the person's relationship and wish the best for them, not try to find little "faults" like whether they had a wedding.

When you take love out of things - which is the only true sign of being a Christian - you are only left with outward rules to categorize people with. God sees whats going on though. He's not going to call someone His child because they married with a ceremony or because they attend church every week. Nope. Do they stand up for people who are oppressed? Do they encourage a friend who is down? Do they deep down want to love and be loved and know how to commit to the people in their lives? This is what God care about.
 
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If the marriage ceremony were to be abandoned entirely, how would one distinguish someone who is married in the Christian sense, from someone who is not? This seems to me a very crucial question in light of the fact that God intends for marriage to be a picture of Christ's covenental relationship with the Church. .

Who cares? Why go around and categorize people? Why not just love them encourage them and motivate them?

I guess if you were going to admonish them you might want to know who's unmarried so you could offer that godly instruction. But admonishment really needs to start with "love your neighbor" be good to your friends, make time for the people in your life, stand up against error, get to the root of what truth is etc. etc. etc. not do this ceremony, be at church every week, don't question the pastor, and just be the goody two shoes sterotypical christian. anyone can do that. some just don't want to. and others like me see the error for what it is and will never be that out of principle.

But really you will know who's really married and who's not. Watch how they treat each other. Note the respect, the willingness to make time for the other person, the ability to compromise. The skills that show they have or will be able to keep a long term relationship. These are the married people. Not the ones who got married but lack this love. They won't be together long anyway,
 
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For those who are saying we should submit t authorities and the laws of the land and get married

LOL

That is talking about not disobeying the laws or causing trouble. in no way does simply not getting legally married cause trouble in this country (I'm assuming most of us are from the US). You won't be an outlaw for it; no problem there.
 
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brohammer26

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To Radagast---
This is what I have found.

1 Corinthians 7 (Young's Literal Translation)

2 and because of the whoredom let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her proper husband;
harlot·dom (hôr
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n. 1. The practice of accepting payment in exchange for sexual relations; prostitution

Even the word Fornicate has a latin root of FORNIX- which was an archway where prostitutes did thier work.


It is a common belief that the origin of the word derives from Latin. The word fornix means "an archway" or "vault" and it became a common euphemism for a brothel as prostitutes could be solicited in the vaults beneath Rome. More directly, fornicatio means "done in the archway," perhaps a reference to prostitution.
The first recorded use of the noun in its modern meaning was in 1303 AD, with the verb fornicate first recorded around 250 years later.[2]


In the English translations of the Bible the Greek term πορνεία (porneia) has given rise to some dispute. The traditional translation of the term into English has been fornication,[3] but has also been translated as whoredom.[4] More recent translations have preferred the alternate translation of sexual immorality or simply immorality.[5]


What I get from Scripture is dont act like a harlot, be one, or see one. Whoremongering I would say is at the level of promiscious behavior. Seek for committed relation with the person you want to spend your life with and souls are tied through sex. I dont agree that the man-made tradition of marriage is necessary for one to be married in god's eyes.


What about Deutronomy which verse? I am curious.
 
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Radagast

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To Radagast---
This is what I have found.

1 Corinthians 7 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's is hardly a reliable translation. It's more helpful to look at translations like the NIV, ESV and HCSB (porneia = "sexual immorality") and at the lexicon entries for porneia here and here. The etymology of the Latin word is irrelevant to interpreting the Greek, of course.
 
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brohammer26

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I dont get it..some of those are saying that unchasity and prostitution is the same thing. That makes no sense. If you are saying the latin root of the word has no merit than the word alltogether has to be thrown out...the word fornicate should not be in the bible at all.

Google Translate

If you put the word πορνεία the greek version of porneia of the word the direct translation is prostitution...I think everything else was just added through human error. This is my opinion of course I just dont have full trust that everything in the bible was translated correctly. I am opened minded to the discussion over that there is a reasonable argument from both sides.

Even if it was meant for the word prostitution it still doesnt explain what constitutes marriage. That is why when we read that souls tie through sex there is a feeling that is the person you are married too and suppose to be with. So really there is no such thing as sex before marriage because it would equal sex.
 
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brohammer26

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Here's my man made advice for what it's worth.....

DON'T do it.


Better safe than sorry as the old saying goes...

I think this is solid advice. You are getting married, so why not wait..it will be more special on your honeymoon.
 
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