Luke 16: A response to an article.

[P1LGR1M]

As I suggested, He and the Son are not the least bit amused about the reality of Christianity, which has much to do with why America is destined to be destroyed and why other “Christian nations” will receive little mercy before they, too, are destroyed.

The gods you profess to know are not the God of scripture, sorry.

God does not save people and then hope things work out okay.

God’s wrath will also trample all other nations on this world before the Son establishes his kingdom of righteousness and wisdom. Amen….

And from every nation, tribe and tongue...He will save.

America playing caped crusader defending the undergdogs of our world is a bunch of hogwash.

If you say so. Wait to see what happens next. You cannot just spit in the face of your allies and expect it to be okay. Obama has done that since day one, and with supporters that have this kind of attitude, he will be amboldened to allow this to progress.

One day, I am sure, you will regret such a sentiment.

There is a t-shirt that says, "Want to know your future?" on one side, and on the other it says "Show me your friends."

Licky for me I am a spectator of the world, rather than a friend of it. I do not want to be worthy of the world.

It is evidence of America’s arrogance.

Better arrogance than ignorance. Support global warming efforts...and nuclear War!

Geniuses. lol

That is beside the fact that God did not commission to her to play god of the Earth and decide who should prevail and who should fall.

I would not be so sure of that, amigo:


Romans 13

King James Version (KJV)


1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.



Want to explain to me how terrorists are justified in the evil they do?

I see America playing this role at times. Sometimes our military has been drawn into things we should not have. Bottom line: WORLD SYSTEM.

And you talk like America deserved 9/11. THat God hates the Church He is building, and loves the dregs of the earth you associate(d) with.

And you want to say I live in a fantasy land? lol

Her zealous support for Israel is another huge problem.

Oh, yes. Those Jews, who do they think they are? THey should be exterminated, right?

One day your little socialistic, pantheistic religion will help bring that very thing about. Good thing the Lord has those in the world that are keeping aremnant intact. Israel will survive, but only the believing among the other nations will, for the wicked that will be destroyed in the Tribulation will include everyone on a global basis. Think we can sit over here in safety? Do you relish what is happening, and going to happen...in America? TO her people? You have more loyalty to our enemies than your countrymen themselves. Much less our allies.

But hey, as long as we indoctrinate our kids in liberal philospohy and save trees and whales...all is well.

Since Israel has a big sister to back her up, she has become much more arrogant and belligerent than she would have otherwise.

Israelis a very impressive nation. She does not need America's support, and she knows it.

But that's okay, we have a guy that doesn't seem to know there is a difference between ships, bayonets, and horses.

But I bet you cheered when he made this smart remark, didn't you?

She has been digging her own grave through American support.

Right. How do you feel about the terrorist attacks she has suffered. THat's okay, right?

God is extremely upset with her, concerning her awful attitude toward him and the Palestinians.

lol...it's all there in scripture, Senecharnix. The Lord has held Israel in a state of seperation long before George Bush showed up.

He will allow her to survive after America falls. But He is going to make her pay big time for her sins and sinful attitude. Consequently, she will perish before the Son returns….

But you will be preserved,no doubt.

Lastly, the Church traditions that you mentioned are not worth their weight in hot air.

Sigh...does nobody know how to properly repsond around here?

What traditions?

Most of them were manuactured to support other aspects of deception, regarding the nonsense that had begun sprouting in the Early Church...

Yes, Iknow, I know, the Church is evil, all Christians are substandard people compared to those nice murderers and assassins, and...well, you know. Were they Democrats? lol

The claims of "certain people" do not mean diddly-squat...

Actually the "claims of people" are very important. Which is why God holds people to a standard where they will not lie and make up their own data to support their particular special rights group.

I too, have an agenda, and a special rights group. The difference though, between mine and yours is that I do have certain inalienable rights, though I am a foreigner, a pilgrim and stranger in this world. I have to the right to rebuke the devil you magnify, because he has to come through my Father to get to me. I do have the right speak without shame. I do have the right to expect God to do what He says...without tempting Him.

My speacial rights group?

Christians. Becausae they are my brethren.

As an American, her people too, are my brethren. And while I may dislike them, pick on them, and give them a hard time...no-one else can. It's always a bad idea to pick on someone's brother, lol.

I have done enough research to know in some cases and strongly suspect in others that there are great big holes in most of the claims that I have ecountered....

Well, your assessment of your abilities to actually research a subject have seriously been called into question in the statements you have made in this thread.

Don't be upset with me, I mean no offense, but I will not lie to you either, Senecharnix. And, if an enemy tried to harm you, my friend, I would do what I could to protect you.

That is the American Spirit which until recent years has been led by the Holy Spirit.

America has a role in this world and will surely fall into God's displeasure when she stands by while innocent people are murdered by their leaders. God has allowed human government and to this day decides who lives and dies, who reigns and who doesn't.

I have mentioned before that the DNC was a clear example that this administration has no interest in what the People want.

Remember, your party, your religion...voted God down.

But because it was the agenda of the admiinistration that is pass, the People were ignored.

While the masses stand there with their hands out, expecting government, rather than God, to supply thier need, they fail to understand that they will be the first ones to go.


God bless.

 

[doc8645]

WOW! Really don't mean to interrupt this on-going mutual admiration society (LOL), but if I may put in my two cents worth and just offer an addendum which seems to completely differ from the thus far previous interpretive suppositions relating to Luke 16.

I too view the Luke 16 subject as a parable, fable, story, or whatever term one wishes to attribute to a story thats unreal. The only justification some have given to it being real is "because it mentions a proper name". Really? Cabbage patch dolls have proper names too, and birth certificates, are they real? (bought one for my girl a long time ago.)

But it seems I differ greatly in the essence of the conventional viewpoint. When I read it, I kinda think its funny, like "WOW, did He tell them, or what!" You see, what I got was that He wasn't speaking to "the masses", this was aimed at the adversarial group that was trying and eventually succeeded in getting Him killed, that followed Him wherever He went and challenged every thing He ever did!

They say with any story, fable, or parable the moral of the story is mostly at the end, and this one is no different. As when Jesus told them "if they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded though One rise from the dead". So the message can't seem to be any clearer than that! Wow, He went right to the heart of the matter. And I kinda think also my suppositional theory is supported (IMO) by the fact it appears in no other Disciples writings. I think it is because they may have been fearful of reprisals. Of course Jesus didn't fear them, but His disciples after all were hiding in the upper room after His crucifixion, and the Pharisees were powerfully influential and authoritive. Just a different viewpoint to consider I guess. So, anyway, carry on with your theological remonstrating, didn't mean to interrupt.LOL

doc8645

 

[Soulgazer]

WOW! Really don't mean to interrupt this on-going mutual admiration society (LOL), but if I may put in my two cents worth and just offer an addendum which seems to completely differ from the thus far previous interpretive suppositions relating to Luke 16.

I too view the Luke 16 subject as a parable, fable, story, or whatever term one wishes to attribute to a story thats unreal. The only justification some have given to it being real is "because it mentions a proper name". Really? Cabbage patch dolls have proper names too, and birth certificates, are they real? (bought one for my girl a long time ago.)

But it seems I differ greatly in the essence of the conventional viewpoint. When I read it, I kinda think its funny, like "WOW, did He tell them, or what!" You see, what I got was that He wasn't speaking to "the masses", this was aimed at the adversarial group that was trying and eventually succeeded in getting Him killed, that followed Him wherever He went and challenged every thing He ever did!

They say with any story, fable, or parable the moral of the story is mostly at the end, and this one is no different. As when Jesus told them "if they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded though One rise from the dead". So the message can't seem to be any clearer than that! Wow, He went right to the heart of the matter. And I kinda think also my suppositional theory is supported (IMO) by the fact it appears in no other Disciples writings. I think it is because they may have been fearful of reprisals. Of course Jesus didn't fear them, but His disciples after all were hiding in the upper room after His crucifixion, and the Pharisees were powerfully influential and authoritive. Just a different viewpoint to consider I guess. So, anyway, carry on with your theological remonstrating, didn't mean to interrupt.LOL

doc8645

I tend to agree with you, though I take it to the logical next step; The stories were all written many years after the fact, and were written by design to support the theology of the authors. "Though one rose from the dead" is an obvious reference to Jesus.

 

[Senecharnix]

That is the American Spirit which until recent years has been led by the Holy Spirit.

I will keep it very simple. This single statement of yours illustrates just how deep the delusions that you entertain are, concerning both religious and sociopolitical matters. The Holy Spirit has never been a friend of the American spirit, which is of the Devil and Hell. Always has been and always will be….

I do not receive help from the government and have worked hard all of my life. But I have never been materialistic….

Dispensationalism is the product of delusionary thinking. Those who preach its deceptions serve the Devil. The Antichrist will not be a Moslem. He waits in Yugoslavia for his time to parade onto the stage of history. Those Dispensationalists that live in America will not need to worry about him. For many of them, their rapture shall come in the blastwaves of nuclear weapons. Others will perish in less spectacular ways…America will become a vast desolation dotted with ruins before the Antichrist assumes his destiny. The Moslem nations will war against his empire of infamy and be destroyed….

Yeshua hung around "dregs," too. Unlike the screwed up folks that you associate with, few of them fool themselves into thinking they are better than they are. Likewise, whatever harm that they may cause the world is relatively minor to that done by the screwed up folks, who happen to be among the people most responsible for the world system that you denounce but participate in rather zealously as one of the brethren, the type of people who helped fashion, promote, and perpetuate Americanism--the heart and soul of the modern version of the world system....

Yeah, I know how to debate and argue perfectly well. But what would be the point in putting that sort of effort in, while discussing something with someone who is not the least bit interested in listening with an eagerness to exercise understanding? The only reason why I responded at all is for the sake of those who might be interested in doing so. If they had waded into the discussion and asked, I would be happy to explain my views in a well-crafted manner….

 

[strangertoo]

That is the American Spirit which until recent years has been led by the Holy Spirit.

even American presidents have admitted that America has bee run from Europe since the 1913 coup of the 'Federal Reserve Act' which gave a few European world bankers the legal right to fleece America and dictate its economy, depressions, way of life...

Obama was groomed and paid for by Goldman Sachs to make promises he cannot keep to keep folks quiet in the death throes of a once-great nation, now beyond insolvency ...

but the true American spirit resides in its NDN population ... I loved it when the Lakota declared independence from the federal puppets of the NWO :-

A group of Native Americans called the Lakota Freedom Delegation traveled to Washington, D.C., on 17 December 2007 and delivered a statement asserting the independence of the Lakota from the United States.

The Republic of Lakotah or Lakotah is a proposed homeland in North America for the Lakota.
Its boundaries would be surrounded by the borders of the United States, covering thousands of square miles in North Dakota, South Dakota, Nebraska, Wyoming, and Montana. The proposed borders are those of the 1851 Treaty of Fort Laramie between the United States government and the Lakota.

 

[Senecharnix]

even American presidents have admitted that America has bee run from Europe since the 1913 coup of the 'Federal Reserve Act' which gave a few European world bankers the legal right to fleece America and dictate its economy, depressions, way of life...

Obama was groomed and paid for by Goldman Sachs to make promises he cannot keep to keep folks quiet in the death throes of a once-great nation, now beyond insolvency ...

but the true American spirit resides in its NDN population ... I loved it when the Lakota declared independence from the federal puppets of the NWO :-

Yea, Lakota!...Do not kid yourself. That three-faced liar, Romney, would be at least as bad as Obama. But I would bet he would have proven to be even worse—far worse….

 

[P1LGR1M]

even American presidents have admitted that America has bee run from Europe since the 1913 coup of the 'Federal Reserve Act' which gave a few European world bankers the legal right to fleece America and dictate its economy, depressions, way of life...

You are missing something critical to the debate between the political antagonists, strangertoo, as well as to who runs America. Both issues can be summed up by the fact that Washington, while it has great influence over the lives of those that live here as their actions often impact our lives, does not represent all America, meaning, because their is a Repuplcan President does not mean all Americans are Republican, a Democratic President, that all are Democrats. We can further break this down to the fact that not all "republicans" are conservative, not all "democrats" are liberal. There is a broad spectrum of belief among those that call themselves democrat and republican.

We can go further to say that not all who vote either way are republican or democrat. I usually vote republican because if I do, I help to vote against abortion and normalizing homosexuality. Those are just a couple of key issues for me, because I am a Christian.

But what I do not do is get so involved with this process, which is part of the world system, that I transfer my loyalties and efforts to one party or the other.

Having said all that, I will attempt to make the point that is at the heart of the issue, for me, anyway: many people that do get caught up with political matters are usually caught up because this is their religion. They have more loyalty to their party than they do for Christ.

More and more people are becoming devotees to this religion, and why not? The god of political power supplies them with provision, represents their values, gives them a central figure to put their trust in.

But...and understand this, strangertoo, there is an America that is not caught up in all of this, because they serve the God of Heaven, and are citizens of a better country.

I pay my taxes, because this is required of me. But, the government is not such a central figure in my life or the life of my family that I have to be concerned about who is in office overmuch.

But there are some who are dependant upon who is in office because one party "provides" better than the other. Anyone that cannot see that is either lying to themself or flat out lying.

My vote cannot be bought with promises of anything. Some people are bought and paid for by a party. And we see this same idolatry on both sides, though I think it is clear that the Democratic Party is far more guilty to catering to special interest groups. But anyone that gets too caught up in it have been caught up in the world system.

As Christians we should not lose perspective of the big picture.

even American presidents have admitted that America has bee run from Europe since the 1913 coup of the 'Federal Reserve Act' which gave a few European world bankers the legal right to fleece America and dictate its economy, depressions, way of life...

You have the mistaken idea that the Presidents have control of all Americans. The world politics that are inevitable for our Government have less impact on most Americans than you might think.

Where this gets personal is when we deal with issues of National Security, and so far we have not had to deal with foreign invasion as many countries in the world have. We have not had groups committing acts of terrorism on a daily basis so that our lives revolve around that issue. We have much crime in this country which could be lessened if laws were more severe, but the legal system is as about as complicated as the political system.

However, their are still good people in this country. I was amazed when going to a meeting in a local county the other day and the meeting was opened up in prayer. This was local government, mind you, and it was encouraging to be part of this and know that there is still a modicum of reverence and acknowledgement of God in this country.

So to think that european countries run my part of America, you are mistaken. They may make life more difficult, and I may pay more for certain items, but my America exists free of their control.

Obama was groomed and paid for by Goldman Sachs to make promises he cannot keep to keep folks quiet in the death throes of a once-great nation, now beyond insolvency ...

I too think Obama is a "manchurian candidate." I do think there are people pulling strings, not just for him, but in many positions in not only our government, but in all of them.

However, that does not mean that there are no good politicians, that there are no people involved in the process that make a difference...there are. The higher the position, the more politics. It is as simple as that. For the Presidency, I believe that all Presidents get into office and there are boundaries established by the very politics that have been in place for years.

Since you think that America is run by european bankers, then you can start spreading the word that they are responsible for the war in Iraq, Afghanistan, et cetera.

But, what the european bankers have not orchestrated are the individual acts of courage and bravery which are performed by Americans every day, despite Washington.

but the true American spirit resides in its NDN population ...

No, strangertoo, it does not. It resides in the soldier that fights for his country, because he wants those he loves to be safe, because he sees injustice in the actions of a dictator, because he loves his country and does not want it to be like other countries around the world.

It resides in the Police Officer, that believes in Law and Justice, and that people have a right to live free from fear.

It resides in the heart of the Fireman, the rescue worker, the nurse.

The American spirit, when it shines, represents the very opposite of the spirit that has slowly been creeping into the hearts of Americans everywhere, which is a spirit of self, with no concerns for anyone but...me. It's motto is "gimme gimme," and it's logo a hand out, ready to receive.

"Ask not what I can do for my country, just gimme what's rightfully mine, though I have not earned it."

I have in my heritage American Indian, as many in this country do. I was not a part of the events in the early years of this country, and I seriously question the theology of many Fouunding Fathers," but...doctrinal flawlessness is not a requirement for being a Christian, only faith in Christ. We see that faith expressed in many ways, and the spectrum of knowledge is as vast as any other group, it's adherents ranging from ignorant to informed. But it comes back to faith, and Who it is placed in.

I loved it when the Lakota declared independence from the federal puppets of the NWO :-

A little anti-American sentiment, strangertoo?

I too have a certain amount of anti-American sentiment, but it is not directed at the people of this country, but at the evil spirits that seek to destroy those people, who have no idea of the powers behind the props they obseerve. It is no different than my hatred for Satan and the work he performs in the lives of people.

But we have to have that sentiment directed at the responsible parties, those who are truly "behind the scenes."

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Yea, Lakota!...Do not kid yourself. That three-faced liar, Romney, would be at least as bad as Obama. But I would bet he would have proven to be even worse—far worse….

Yeah! Bet he would have spent 2 trillion a year. We know he has a terrible track record in managing money!

lol

 

[P1LGR1M]

That is the American Spirit which until recent years has been led by the Holy Spirit.

I will keep it very simple. This single statement of yours illustrates just how deep the delusions that you entertain are, concerning both religious and sociopolitical matters. The Holy Spirit has never been a friend of the American spirit, which is of the Devil and Hell. Always has been and always will be….

Tsk, tsk, Senecharnix. I wish I could illustrate the sadness that arises when you reveal the nature of your heart and religion.

Boasting great knowledge and experience, you betray a blindness that, as I said, could be better described in terms of Stockholm Syndrome.

You make the very mistake you charge others with, and confuse the American spirit with the political machine you give your loyalty to.

How sad.

THe Holy Spirit, God, has worked in the hearts and lives of America since before this was a Nation. Man's right to worship as he sees fit is demonstrated admirably in this country.

That is why so many peoples have come here.

I do not receive help from the government and have worked hard all of my life. But I have never been materialistic….

Glad to hear it.

Dispensationalism is the product of delusionary thinking.

Dispensationalism, like most credible belief systems, has some very true positions which many are ignorant of. As far as systems go, this is one that stands out as it does the necessary research to reach a conclusion that few can argue with, unlike many systems which can be dismissed in large part as they are unable to scripturally defend their position.

This is why some people are forced to secular reasoning to discredit the very word of God.

Those who preach its deceptions serve the Devil.

An ignorant statement based in personal opinion. Nothing more.

You have probably never even spoken with a Dispensationalist who actually has an understanding of the beliefs he believes. If your brand of discussion has been as it has been with me, I cannot see how you can assert an informed opinion about doctrinal matters when you refuse to speak about doctrine itself.

All that is offered is secular scholarship, human reasoning, and personal opinion.

I tried to keep this thread on track, but those that derail threads usually betray their own agenda, and will alkways shift the focus of attention to something irrelevant.

Tell me, Senecharnix, how the God of the Bible could possibly lead someone to support, in any fashion, a religion that has no concern for the lives of unborn children?

They offer up their children to gods, to be sure. And their motive is not a representation of Christ and Christian values, but is self-seeking, so the next time someone involved wants to lecture me about love, please read 1 Corinthians 13 first.

The Antichrist will not be a Moslem.

I don't think he will be either, I believe he will come out of the European countries.

But the next time you talk to the person you think is the Lord, just ask him. Surely this entity would know.

He waits in Yugoslavia for his time to parade onto the stage of history.

Could be, but I do not make predictions nor try to convince people I know something that has not been revealed.

According to the word of God those that follow this man will be under great delusion.

Better to keep one's mouth shut than prove one is already under great delusion.

Those Dispensationalists that live in America will not need to worry about him. For many of them, their rapture shall come in the blastwaves of nuclear weapons.

Be careful of the spirit this is spoken in.

It is funny how those of us that teach a literal Hell are charged with being hard-hearted, yet inevitably most deniers of Hell will express a spirit like this.

And I find it curious that we find more and more anti-American and Anti-Christian sentiment among...Americans.

"America is going to get what is coming to her."

Now this is devilish, and the spirit of antichrist.

I will have to get back to this.

To be continued...

 

[dollarsbill]

try to understand , there was no NT when Jesus taught about the Comforter, the 'scriptures' Jesus refers to , authorises, are basically the OT ...

Try to understand, what you just said is TOTALLY irrelevant to this matter.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Others will perish in less spectacular ways…America will become a vast desolation dotted with ruins before the Antichrist assumes his destiny.

Could very well be.

Though I think Texas will make it through all right.

The Moslem nations will war against his empire of infamy and be destroyed….

Doubtful. Muslims have participated in wars before, and I think it will likely be that muslims will fall into the same delusion that others of false religion, as well as the religions of no religion, self, and nature will fall into.

I think the historical ratio of those saved in the Tribulation will be similar to those that have been throughout the centuries...many/few.

Today is the day of salvation, Senecharnix, before the conscience is seared. Those that have a "I'll make peace with God on my time" will have this as testimony to the righteous judgment of God when it falls, and only then will the truth be clear to them that have their hearts trained in idolatrous and rebellious practice.

Yeshua hung around "dregs," too.

The difference between the Lord and your testimony is that the Lord did not condone the actions of sinners.

He consistently condemned sin. He forgave sin, to be sure, but did not say, "You are better than the religious leaders that brought you to be stoned," but, "Go, and sin no more."

Big difference.

Unlike the screwed up folks that you associate with,

Again, you bring false witness.

Tsk, tsk, Senecharnix, think that the Lord has changed His mind about how He feels about this?

You might be surprised about the folks I hang around with, lol.

few of them fool themselves into thinking they are better than they are.

Again we see the limited manner in which the situation is assessed. Do you realize that anyone that feels he has the right to murder has elevated himself above others?

And as far as going around repenting about actions without changing one's actions...that is nothing more than show. It is a lie.

And there are only a few ignorant enough to buy into that.

Repentance without change is simply human sorrow...that one has been unmasked.

Likewise, whatever harm that they may cause the world is relatively minor to that done by the screwed up folks, who happen to be among the people most responsible for the world system that you denounce but participate in rather zealously as one of the brethren,

An ignorant statement. But this is usually the tact of human secularism: to blame others.

Of course, we can expect this from those that have only experience in the world, and have not actually met too many of the folks they criticize.

That the world system is a result of Christians ridiculous. I guess your research has not spent much time looking at biographies of missionaries, has it?

the type of people who helped fashion, promote, and perpetuate Americanism--the heart and soul of the modern version of the world system....

Oh, so the entire world is like America, is it? That makes anti-American sentiment take on a broader base of irony, now doesn't it.

I guess that takes us back to Stockholm Syndrome, doesn't it? lol

Imagine, the world hating their pattern and role model...rofl.

Yeah, I know how to debate and argue perfectly well.

Could have fooled me. lol

All I have heard is "I..." "I..." "I..."

And of course, lets not forget a distinctly charismatic tenor, "God told me..."

It is easy to discerrn those led of the Spirit of God because they will be doing what Christ said the Spirit would do:


John 16

King James Version (KJV)

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


So when we run across those whose focus is on themselves and their groups and the teachings of their groups, we can question what spirit they are of.

And when we run across those that have a ministry of condemnation and especially when they seek to descredit the Body of Christ, we can be certain they know nothing of the Body of Christ.

But what would be the point in putting that sort of effort in, while discussing something with someone who is not the least bit interested in listening with an eagerness to exercise understanding?

The point in engaging those that teach is to bring them into the light of God's word.

You have a distinct disadvantage, though, admittedly.

You have already betrayed your motives which are identical to those of the current administration, which is, you do not care in the least what the other believes, and therefore make no attempt to make an objective assessment of the other individual. Your goal is to indoctrinate others in the belief system you are engaged in.

Originally Posted by Senecharnix

There is no way that we will ever agree unless you become more open to truth and shun fairytale thinking.
​

Here are a couple of fairy tales for you: the collapse of the American economy was George Bush's fault.

All of the people in the countries we "invade" hate us terribly.

All American Soldiers are bloodthirsty murders.

If a presidential candidate says something enough it will be true.

The liberal agenda is helping people.

The EPA is helping...anything.


Sigh...I could go on, but, since you will not speak of the spiritual things of God found in scripture, there are a few items from the religion of politics and humanity that might interest you.

The only reason why I responded at all is for the sake of those who might be interested in doing so.

I know exactly why you responded. It is the same reason as every other secular humanist that responds...to further their agenda.

If they had waded into the discussion and asked, I would be happy to explain my views in a well-crafted manner….

Actually, the discussion centers around Luke 16, remember? I tried to keep this thread on track yet most of the posts so far have talked about everything but.

But what would be the point in putting that sort of effort in, while discussing something with someone who is not the least bit interested in listening with an eagerness to exercise understanding?

It's okay with me. I only respond to responses, so I am happy when those that derail, deflect, distract, or diatribe...slink away, lol.

By the way, learned that using the same letter in desccription thing from George Bush the younger, whatcha think? lol

The only reason why I responded at all is for the sake of those who might be interested in doing so.

So it was not to let everyone know how pious and gifted you are?

Whatever, lol.

If they had waded into the discussion and asked, I would be happy to explain my views in a well-crafted manner….

So start a thread. I am frankly tired of having to wade through the content of your posts.

 

[P1LGR1M]

WOW! Really don't mean to interrupt this on-going mutual admiration society (LOL),

lol...really, INTERRUPT! PLEASE!

lol

Very glad to have you join the discussion, Doc, it is a breath of fresh air to actually have an on-topic post. Please forgive the rabbit trail, though, these also have to be addressed.

but if I may put in my two cents worth and just offer an addendum which seems to completely differ from the thus far previous interpretive suppositions relating to Luke 16.

You may, it is welcomed greatly.

I too view the Luke 16 subject as a parable, fable, story, or whatever term one wishes to attribute to a story thats unreal.

One has to decide this for themsaelves. I tend to give credence to the notion that it would be reasonable that the Lord would be familiar with many that had died and ended up in Hades, so I am not overly dogmatic about the point either way. I tend to think this to probably be the least important aspect of this story which is designed to teach.

But one thing I will say concerning the parables is that whether the characters in this story or any of the parables are based on literal people or not takes us to the realization that in fact, they do refer to real people.

Take the Parable of the Tares, for instance: doesn't the Lord tell us who they refer to?

Matthew 13:36-40

King James Version (KJV)


36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.

37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.



Does the Lord not teach about actual events? Events which go on every day?

The only justification some have given to it being real is "because it mentions a proper name". Really? Cabbage patch dolls have proper names too, and birth certificates, are they real?

Again, many get sidetracked from the teaching getting hung up on this.

The difference between the parables in general and this story is that again, we have a story or parable that speaks of judgment on a personal level. Personal responsibility for actions in our lives.

Proper names were given in the Parable of the Good Samaritan as well:


Luke 10:31-33

King James Version (KJV)


31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,



Those names are Priest, Levite, and Samaritan. Though not persoanl names, they are names which speak of specific people.

(bought one for my girl a long time ago.)

I never understood the fascination, lol.

Those things were kinda creepy if you ask me, but kids loved them.

But it seems I differ greatly in the essence of the conventional viewpoint.

A little, yes, but hopefully you can be convinced that there is much more to the teaching than just the end point.

I fall somewhere in the middle, maybe a little more toward the vein of the author, maybe, in that I see it is rich in instruction.Not just about punishment, not just about charity, not just about responsibility for others, not just about responsibility for one's actions, not just about responsibility for one's family, not just about responsibility for the word of God, not just about consequences for sin, not just about seperation from God, not just about the inability of miracles to produce saving faith...*deep breath*...

...see what I mean?

When I read it, I kinda think its funny, like "WOW, did He tell them, or what!"

That is just one of the things taught in the Lord's teaching, and you are right in saying...WOW.

Because if we had been there, my friend, I think we would have both also been reminded of our own actions in life toward others and walked awayknowing that our toes, also, had been stepped on. I feel that way anyway, because it does that for me every time I read the story. It's like driving by a bad accident, or going to a funeral...it shapes us up if we are snoozing, lol.

And that is one of the things I hope will be, or at least I had hoped to bring out in this thread. The article was offered by someone as though this was the final word and that everyone could conclude that the teaching of Jesus here had nothing to do with judgment or separation from God.

It is a work which if looked at in a casual manner sounds very plausible, however, if we look a little deeper there is enough there to make it clear it is an altogether not to be trusted.

Sometimes we do throw the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

It is up to every believer to be a little more thorough in their testing of what is taught, that we learn to examine the teachings we are offered. If more did that, there would be more church closings than openings, because if some people understood better that which thier "faith" taught...theywould leave. If they have a sound grasp on the word, and are rooted in it, that is.

You see, what I got was that He wasn't speaking to "the masses", this was aimed at the adversarial group that was trying and eventually succeeded in getting Him killed, that followed Him wherever He went and challenged every thing He ever did!

I take the view that there are distinct audiences which are in view in the original address which help us to better understand, such as the Book of Hebrews, which, if one does not keep this in mind they will likely butcher the teacing itself. However, all of God's word is for every man in every generation. I believe this of both Testaments.

So I take the position that not only did this story have relevance to the "masses," and that the Religious elite would have seen the implication for them as the "shepherds" of Israel, but it also has relevance to each and every one of us.

You said "wow" twice in this post alone: first, to the critical posts that have derailed this thread; to the teaching...which is the point of this thread. First, good job, and thanks. Secondly, "wow," while a good choice of words (for both, lol...almost rofl), is too mild a word for the teaching itself.

Many people hear or read this story, and the teacing is rather simple, really. What is brought to mind is not Judah, either the kingdom or the man, but what happens when one dies.

Would you agree with that, Doc?

They say with any story, fable, or parable the moral of the story is mostly at the end, and this one is no different.

I would have to disagree with that.

Look with me again at the Parable of the Tares:


Matthew 13:36-40

King James Version (KJV)



36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.


37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;


38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;


39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.



We see a number of truths taught here:

1) The Lord is the One Who is bringing people into the kingdom.

2) The Devil seeks to create counterfeits (Tares being similar in appearance but of a different nature).

3) There is coming an end to the time of sowing.

4) There will be a harvest in which the true (wheat) will be as John said, gathered into His garner (in this parable they are gathered into His barn).

5) He allows this to happen, which actually helps prevent harm from befalling the wheat.

6) The tares are burned, which signifies judgment.

7) Angels are said to do the gathering (which only has a great significance usually to those who hold to a pre-trib position).


These are just a few points to see in the teaching, rather than one point to where we can say, "The moral of the story is..."

It is rather, "The morals of the story..." lol

The story of the rich man and Lazarus is, I believe, designed to instruct us on a number of issues that reach into many aspects of our lives.

In this thread, what I hope to do is address the attempt to erase the teaching about one's disposition after death. Great lengths are gone to in the article I am addressing to do just that.

As when Jesus told them "if they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded though One rise from the dead".

We, because we are on this side of the Cross, can see the great significance of this aspect of the story, and can see the truth in the statement when shortly after, the Lord goes to the Cross, dies, is buried, and then does exactly what the story teaches would not be enough to convince men to live according to the word of God (and in that I do not mean simply keeping commandments, but benefitting from what the word of God does in our lives in so many ways)...He is resurrected from the dead.

His death on the Cross was prophesied as well as told to the people directly, but it was not, I believe, until the coming of the Comforter that they, and we...truly understood why He came.

But, I also believe that just as today, in the first century there were those that were reminded of this story and they may well have come to belief as a result of this teaching. It is my belief that there were those among the religious rulers that came to saving faith in Christ after Pentecost.

So the message can't seem to be any clearer than that!

Agreed. A simple approach to the teacing of scripture is always the best first coourse, and then:


Matthew 13:52

King James Version (KJV)


52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.

Wow, He went right to the heart of the matter.

Agreed...on a number of levels.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

And I kinda think also my suppositional theory is supported (IMO) by the fact it appears in no other Disciples writings.

Not sure why singular appearance would make us think there was only one major point to His teachings.

In this story, and if we use this formula, it would be: the word of God is sufficient to keep one from everlasting torment.

But I think we can see this teacing motivate us in our concern for so much more: family, neighbors, responsibility to seek God, et cetera.

I think it is because they may have been fearful of reprisals.

Not likely. If that were the case Paul would not have gone to prison, nor stood in the place of judgment so often. Luke did accompany Paul.

Peter was jailed. And according to both the word of the Lord and tradition, Peter, and most of the disciples, died for the sake of Christ.

Of course Jesus didn't fear them, but His disciples after all were hiding in the upper room after His crucifixion, and the Pharisees were powerfully influential and authoritive.

They were actually instructed to wait there. Fear is implied in that the door was locked, lol.


Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)



4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.



They awaited the coming of the Comforter, at which time they would be Baptized with the Spirit of God. That promise can be seen here specifically:


Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)


27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



If you back up in this passage I do not think you can miss other aspects of the new birth promised: cleansing from idols to serve God, a new heart, removal of a hard heart, a new spirit, and of course, the promise of the Father and the Son to indwell them:


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)


16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.



23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


By which we can rightly say, those born again have God living in them. By this are we the Temple of God, and Living Stones. We are the Body of Christ, for He lives in us, whereby we can say that we have the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ, for God is One God.

And if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His. So if the disciples, when they were in the Upper Room, were lacking in courage, when they received the Spirit of God on the Day of Pentecost, that was made up for in large measure.

What is not usually considered is that the disciples had no fear to return to their old lives:


John 21:3

King James Version (KJV)


3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.



And what happens? The Good Shepherd comes seeking after His sheep, lol. By which we can trust the Lord Jesus Christ in full faith.

Just a different viewpoint to consider I guess.

And appreciated, Doc. It is good to get back to a scriptural discussion. Thanks.

So, anyway, carry on with your theological remonstrating, didn't mean to interrupt.LOL

doc8645

Please, don't give anyone any ideas, lol.

Just kidding. I admit I have a facetious streak that I unfortunately vent from time to time. I always enjoy just about any kind of conversation, and being an admitted windbag, lol, the only thing I usually regret is the rate at which I can type.

Again, thanks for the on-topic post, it is much appreciated. Once, and if, things get settled down, I will return to the article. It is unlikely that many will take the time to read all of the response, but it may be that there are those that have an interest in this story and the article enough to follow along.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

even American presidents have admitted that America has bee run from Europe since the 1913 coup of the 'Federal Reserve Act' which gave a few European world bankers the legal right to fleece America and dictate its economy, depressions, way of life...

Obama was groomed and paid for by Goldman Sachs to make promises he cannot keep to keep folks quiet in the death throes of a once-great nation, now beyond insolvency ...

but the true American spirit resides in its NDN population ... I loved it when the Lakota declared independence from the federal puppets of the NWO :-

Hullo, strangertoo, just thought I would take this opportunity to ask a question that you are in a good position to answer. I see you are from the UK, and I am curious as to your views on the current administration's relationship with your country.

Could you perhaps give me your thoughts on this, and maybe, if this is a subject of discussion in your country (wouldn't mind knowing what part that is as well, if you don't mind, but it isn't important, just curiosity) what your countrymen might have to say.

God bless.

 

[Senecharnix]

Could very well be.

Though I think Texas will make it through all right.



Doubtful. Muslims have participated in wars before, and I think it will likely be that muslims will fall into the same delusion that others of false religion, as well as the religions of no religion, self, and nature will fall into.


All I have heard is "I..." "I..." "I..."

And of course, lets not forget a distinctly charismatic tenor, "God told me..."

It is easy to discerrn those led of the Spirit of God because they will be doing what Christ said the Spirit would do:

So it was not to let everyone know how pious and gifted you are?

Whatever, lol.
So start a thread. I am frankly tired of having to wade through the content of your posts.

All that I have done is attempt to establish my credentials. The mystical experiences that I have enjoyed and suffered through are integral to the revelations and education from God that I have received and which I endeavor to impart for the benefit of others. God gave my duties to me. Your insults will not change the truth. Thus far, you have gone out of your way to prove just what I discerned about you from the first time that I read one of your posts. You, sir, are a tinhorn blaring your delusions and religious blather. Like all other biblators, you are clueless as to who God is and what it is all about….

In more than a few cases, I provided the only contact with God’s truth and wisdom that those “dregs” ever encountered. Judging from the nonsense from you that I have read, I do not care to know any of your associates….

The Holy Ones implied to me that America shall suffer a fatal blow in her 237th year. That does not necessarily mean she will die in her 237th year. Whatever shall come to pass, however, will initiate the final phases of her woeful spectacle on the stage of history. My instincts tell me that April of 2014 will bring very bad things to her and her denizens…Texas will not fare well at all through what is coming. She is the epitome of the evils of America. I lived in her most of my life and detest everything about her, except her lands, which the greedy and the stupid have done much to make desolate. Islam is only a little farther off course than is the religion that you love…You have warned me to stop doing and saying what God has commissioned me to do and say. I shall now warn you that your defenses of the Devil’s deceptions leave you at risk of paying a very high price….


Just one of the dregs who is what he claims to be,
The Emissary

 

[P1LGR1M]

All that I have done is attempt to establish my credentials. The mystical experiences that I have enjoyed and suffered through are integral to the revelations and education from God that I have received and which I endeavor to impart for the benefit of others. God gave my duties to me. Your insults will not change the truth. Thus far, you have gone out of your way to prove just what I discerned about you from the first time that I read one of your posts. You, sir, are a tinhorn blaring your delusions and religious blather. Like all other biblators, you are clueless as to who God is and what it is all about….

In more than a few cases, I provided the only contact with God’s truth and wisdom that those “dregs” ever encountered. Judging from the nonsense from you that I have read, I do not care to know any of your associates….

The Holy Ones implied to me that America shall suffer a fatal blow in her 237th year. That does not necessarily mean she will die in her 237th year. Whatever shall come to pass, however, will initiate the final phases of her woeful spectacle on the stage of history. My instincts tell me that April of 2014 will bring very bad things to her and her denizens…Texas will not fare well at all through what is coming. She is the epitome of the evils of America. I lived in her most of my life and detest everything about her, except her lands, which the greedy and the stupid have done much to make desolate. Islam is only a little farther off course than is the religion that you love…You have warned me to stop doing and saying what God has commissioned me to do and say. I shall now warn you that your defenses of the Devil’s deceptions leave you at risk of paying a very high price….


Just one of the dregs who is what he claims to be,
The Emissary

If you say so, lol.

God bless.

 

[daq]

Is your self-righteousness showing?


You are in disagreement with Lev 8, where Aaron was the first high priest, ordained by Moses the Mediator and Prophet.

And nowhere in the Scriptures is Moses a priest.


The priesthood was in the order of Aaron (Heb 7:11), his sons were also priests, making Aaron the chief priest or High Priest.
His son Eleazar succeeded him (Nu 20:26; Dt 10:6).

Aaron was the priest who entered the Holy of Holies on the Day of Atonement, which only the High Priest could enter.

His counterpart, in the order of Melchizedek, is the priesthood of which Christ is the High Priest.

Aaron, Melchizedek and Christ are shown to be High Priests.


There is no such "Body of Moses" in Scripture, and it certainly hasn't been "folded" into Christ.


And why wasn't that dispute about where the grave of Moses was located, which no one knew (Dt 34:6)?

Jude 4-10 - "certain men (who were marked out for condemnation) whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men. . .dreamers who pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings (which is to reject authority--2Pe 10-12). But even Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare bring a slanderous accusation against him (Satan), but said, 'Let the Lord rebuke you!' Yet these men speak abusively against what they do not understand. . ."

This text has nothing to do with a Body of Moses as a counterpart to the Body of Christ.

It has to do with the godless men who denied Christ, rejected his authority, slandered celestial beings and were comparable to the unbelieving Israelites (v. 5; Nu 14:29), the sinning angels (v. 6; 2Pe 2:4) and Sodom and Gomorrah (v. 7).


Joshua also means Jesus, who was High Priest (Heb 8).

In the faith,
Clare

Dear Clare here are some things to ponder now that the OP can no longer accuse me of attempting to derail his thread, (for quoting the immediate answer to Luke 16 given by the Master himself in the Luke 17 passage which immediately follows but was divided into two separate chapters by the PTB).

Please provide for yourself the Scripture passage wheresoever Aaron is ever called the ''Kohen Gadol'' or ''High Priest'' and while you are at it please also explain to yourself why the following passage is spoken to Joshua the son of Nun instead of and rather than Eleazar the son of Aaron? If indeed Eleazar was the next High Priest in the line then should not the following commandment have been spoken to him instead of Joshua? I hope you understand how few times the phrase ''ha-Kohen ha-Gadol'' or ''High Priest'' is found in Torah, (very few so it should not take much of a search to get through the first five books).

Joshua 20:1-6 KJV
1. The Lord also spake unto Joshua, saying,
2. Speak to the children of Israel, saying, Appoint out for you cities of refuge, whereof I spake unto you by the hand of Moses:
3. That the slayer that killeth any person unawares and unwittingly may flee thither: and they shall be your refuge from the avenger of blood.
4. And when he that doth flee unto one of those cities shall stand at the entering of the gate of the city, and shall declare his cause in the ears of the elders of that city, they shall take him into the city unto them, and give him a place, that he may dwell among them.
5. And if the avenger of blood pursue after him, then they shall not deliver the slayer up into his hand; because he smote his neighbour unwittingly, and hated him not beforetime.
6. And he shall dwell in that city, until he stand before the congregation for judgment, and until the death of the high priest that shall be in those days: then shall the slayer return, and come unto his own city, and unto his own house, unto the city from whence he fled.

You might also want to find out who and what ''the Stone with seven eyes'' might concern, as found in the same Zechariah passage pertaining to Joshua the High Priest of the book of Zechariah; and again, who the ''men wondered at'' might pertain to, according to the same passage from Zechariah:

Zechariah 3:1-9 KJV
1. And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3. Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel. [Re: Joshua 5:13-15]
4. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5. And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.
6. And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,
7. Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
8. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

Who are the ''fellows'' and ''men wondered at'' that sat before Joshua the High Priest?
What does he mean by the Stone that was past-tense laid before Joshua?
The ''Witness Stone'' represents Yeshua Tsemach-Branch of Righteousness:

Joshua 24:22-27 KJV
22. And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the Lord, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.
23. Now therefore put away, said he, the strange gods which are among you, and incline your heart unto the Lord God of Israel.
24. And the people said unto Joshua, The Lord our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.
25. So Joshua made a covenant with the people that day, and set them a statute and an ordinance in Shechem.
26. And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God, and took a great stone, and set it up there under an oak, that was by the sanctuary of the Lord.
27. And Joshua said unto all the people, Behold, this stone shall be a witness unto us; for it hath heard all the words of the Lord which he spake unto us: it shall be therefore a witness unto you, lest ye deny your God.

Imagine that; the Great Stone heard every word ...

 

[daq]

Therefore cut off that one from your midst: for ''Sin lieth at the door; and unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him'' ...

Luke 16:31-17:10 KJV
31. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
1. Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!
2. It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.
3. Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
4. And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
5. And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
6. And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
7. But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8. And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9. Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10. So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

It might be better to provide some commentary to make your point.

1) Look at yourself in the mirror of Torah by the interpretations given through Yeshua.

Better yet, look into the New Covenant as revealed by the Lord.

2) Having faith command that evil sycamine-fig to be cast into the Sea and it shall obey.

Can you do this, my friend? I tend to view this as hyperbole, but hey, you never know, right?

3) Each of us is a porter with lesser members of his house, (Mtt.24:42-51, Mrk.13:31-37).

The difference between the Law and the New Covenant is that we are no longer servants, but children of God that are on an equal basis.

Philippians 2:3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4) Doing all things commanded count yourself an unprofitable servant such as Lazarus.

How is Lazarus counted as an unrofitable servant?

Can you try to stick to the intent of the thread? Just a little?

You say "black and blue are wrong," but nothing you have said is relevant to the article or the response.

5) Unfortunately every man has a fig(tree) and a vine even BEFORE he enters the Kingdom.

Fortunately, every born again believer is a branch in the True Vine. But I would like to see the scriptural basis for this statement.

The point is to count yourself as ''Lazarus'' the poor beggar and leper rather than counting yourself as the ''rich man'' especially after doing everything you think you have been commanded, (pride comes before a fall). How is that so difficult to understand? As for the Fig and Vine analogy there is one offer from the heavenly Father and another very similar offer from the Assyrian:

1 Kings 4:21-25 KJV
21. And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.
22. And Solomon's provision for one day was thirty measures of fine flour, and threescore measures of meal,
23. Ten fat oxen, and twenty oxen out of the pastures, and an hundred sheep, beside harts, and roebucks, and fallowdeer, and fatted fowl.
24. For he had dominion over all the region on this side the river, from Tiphsah even to Azzah, over all the kings on this side the river: and he had peace on all sides round about him.
25. And Judah and Israel dwelt safely, every man under his vine and under his fig tree, from Dan even to Beersheba, all the days of Solomon.

2 Kings 18:28-32 KJV
28. Then Rabshakeh stood and cried with a loud voice in the Jews' language, and spake, saying, Hear the word of the great king, the king of Assyria:
29. Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you out of his hand:
30. Neither let Hezekiah make you trust in the Lord, saying, The Lord will surely deliver us, and this city shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of Assyria.
31. Hearken not to Hezekiah: for thus saith the king of Assyria, Make an agreement with me by a present, and come out to me, and then eat ye every man of his own vine, and every one of his fig tree, and drink ye every one the waters of his cistern:
32. Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards, a land of oil olive and of honey, that ye may live, and not die: and hearken not unto Hezekiah, when he persuadeth you, saying, The Lord will deliver us.

Zechariah 3:8-10 KJV
8. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10. In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

And yes I have indeed looked at myself in the perfect mirror of the Word and found myself wanting. And yes I have commanded mountains to be cast into the brazen Sea, and yes, the Father did answer my supplications in his own time. Perhaps you simply do not fully understand the teaching of the Master as pertaining to the seven mountains and the molten Sea? There is a good and a bad in everything including the mountains in typology and allegory:

The devils are likened to evil mountains to be cast down:

Matthew 17:14-21 KJV
14. And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15. Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20. And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

And evil mountains are the same analogy as evil figs:

Matthew 21:18-21 KJV
18. Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21. Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

The seven mountains are seven nations mightier than Israel - Deuteronomy 7:1
And the seven mountains are seven heads and also seven kings ~

Revelation 8:8 KJV
8. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

And they fall one at a time; each in his time, but only for the repentant …

 

[P1LGR1M]

Sigh...and I had so hoped we had gotten to a point where we might return to the OP.

Nevertheless, all posts are welcomed.

The point is to count yourself as ''Lazarus'' the poor beggar and leper rather than counting yourself as the ''rich man'' especially after doing everything you think you have been commanded, (pride comes before a fall). How is that so difficult to understand?

And that is just it, my friend...what we have been commanded is not so difficult to understand.

This is, really, the heart of the problem addressed in this article. It is a human effort of eisegetical exercise that lulls men to sleep, rather than move their hearts to obedience to God.

I think I have read enough of your posts to know your answer to this question: Should man fear God?

Or should man in a scholarly fashion simply have a reverence without recognizing God as One Who will judge rightly, and that judgment should bring fear to the hearts of men everywhere?

And that is why the necessity to bring out what is there is crucial. You say,

The point is to count yourself as ''Lazarus'' the poor beggar and leper rather than counting yourself as the ''rich man'' especially after doing everything you think you have been commanded,

...and I agree with that, but this is not the only instruction we see in Luke 16. One aspect is consequence of sin and judgment. It is ever popular to embrace a watered-down gospel and a god that does not resemble the God of scripture, Who will, in vengeance upon those that do not obey the Gospel...bring judgment upon those individuals.

As for the Fig and Vine analogy there is one offer from the heavenly Father and another very similar offer from the Assyrian:

1 Kings 4:21-25 KJV
21. And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.
22. And Solomon's provision for one day was thirty measures of fine flour, and threescore measures of meal,
23. Ten fat oxen, and twenty oxen out of the pastures, and an hundred sheep, beside harts, and roebucks, and fallowdeer, and fatted fowl.
24. For he had dominion over all the region on this side the river, from Tiphsah even to Azzah, over all the kings on this side the river: and he had peace on all sides round about him.
25. And Judah and Israel dwelt safely, every man under his vine and under his fig tree, from Dan even to Beersheba, all the days of Solomon.

There is a big difference between the True Vine, Who is God that provides the conditions described here...and the conditions themselves.

Unless attention is given to context we will inevitably produce a patchwork quilt where terms, phrases, metaphors, and teachings are merged and blurred...the result a muddy stream of religion rather than Living Water.

2 Kings 18:28-32 KJV
28. Then Rabshakeh stood and cried with a loud voice in the Jews' language, and spake, saying, Hear the word of the great king, the king of Assyria:
29. Thus saith the king, Let not Hezekiah deceive you: for he shall not be able to deliver you out of his hand:
30. Neither let Hezekiah make you trust in the Lord, saying, The Lord will surely deliver us, and this city shall not be delivered into the hand of the king of Assyria.
31. Hearken not to Hezekiah: for thus saith the king of Assyria, Make an agreement with me by a present, and come out to me, and then eat ye every man of his own vine, and every one of his fig tree, and drink ye every one the waters of his cistern:
32. Until I come and take you away to a land like your own land, a land of corn and wine, a land of bread and vineyards, a land of oil olive and of honey, that ye may live, and not die: and hearken not unto Hezekiah, when he persuadeth you, saying, The Lord will deliver us.

There is a difference between the promise and assurances of God and the promises of men.

Zechariah 3:8-10 KJV
8. Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.
9. For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10. In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

Again, there is a difference between the God Who provides the conditions...and the conditions themselves.

Israel awaits these promises being fulfilled, and when they are, they will recognize the difference between the promises and He Who promises.

And yes I have indeed looked at myself in the perfect mirror of the Word and found myself wanting.

As it will for everry man who is sincere in seeking after God.

And yes I have commanded mountains to be cast into the brazen Sea, and yes, the Father did answer my supplications in his own time.

That's great. But I do not spiritualize the events of the Tribulation to refer to every event in man's life. They have a Tribulational application that pertains to the Tribulation.

Perhaps you simply do not fully understand the teaching of the Master as pertaining to the seven mountains and the molten Sea?

That is to put it lightly, my friend. But as we look into God, and learn, the first lesson learned is how woefully ignorant we really are. And that is taught by God and used to motivate to continue diligently seeking, and asking, for He Who provides to grant us wisdom, that we might be used for His glory.

There is a good and a bad in everything including the mountains in typology and allegory:

And...?

lol

The devils are likened to evil mountains to be cast down:

Matthew 17:14-21 KJV
14. And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15. Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18. And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19. Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20. And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
21. Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

So do we chop this into Tribulational events and suppose that it is we that will cast down this mountain?

No.

And evil mountains are the same analogy as evil figs:

And...?

lol

Please try to stay on topic to our off topic discussion.

Matthew 21:18-21 KJV
18. Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered.
19. And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
20. And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
21. Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Faith, prayer, and fasting do not bring about the events of the Tribulation which are in view, Daq.

The seven mountains are seven nations mightier than Israel -

I would agree with that perspective.

Deuteronomy 7:1

Deuteronomy 7

King James Version (KJV)


1 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;


That's great, but where is Babylon in your proof-text.

And the seven mountains are seven heads and also seven kings ~

Revelation 17

King James Version (KJV)

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


Where are the seven heads located?


3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And who is the woman?


4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.


And finally Daq...Who destroys the woman that sitteth upon the beast that has seven heads?

The saints? Through Prayer? Sounds good, but I see scripture consistently teaching that God will destroy, and judge...the world system.

Revelation 8:8 KJV
8. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

And they fall one at a time; each in his time, but only for the repentant …

And that last great fall of the system and the Devil that holds much of the world in a stranglehold...will be great. Those that have fallen prey to Satan will weep and howl for her, because they know not God and obey not the Gospel, which is not difficult to understand.

Because it is God Himself that brings understanding and man that rejects that convicting work. No man will stand before God and say, "But Lord, that is not what you taught me."

God bless.

 

[daq]

Sigh...and I had so hoped we had gotten to a point where we might return to the OP.

Nevertheless, all posts are welcomed.




And that is just it, my friend...what we have been commanded is not so difficult to understand.

This is, really, the heart of the problem addressed in this article. It is a human effort of eisegetical exercise that lulls men to sleep, rather than move their hearts to obedience to God.

I think I have read enough of your posts to know your answer to this question: Should man fear God?

Or should man in a scholarly fashion simply have a reverence without recognizing God as One Who will judge rightly, and that judgment should bring fear to the hearts of men everywhere?

And that is why the necessity to bring out what is there is crucial. You say,



...and I agree with that, but this is not the only instruction we see in Luke 16. One aspect is consequence of sin and judgment. It is ever popular to embrace a watered-down gospel and a god that does not resemble the God of scripture, Who will, in vengeance upon those that do not obey the Gospel...bring judgment upon those individuals.



There is a big difference between the True Vine, Who is God that provides the conditions described here...and the conditions themselves.

Unless attention is given to context we will inevitably produce a patchwork quilt where terms, phrases, metaphors, and teachings are merged and blurred...the result a muddy stream of religion rather than Living Water.



There is a difference between the promise and assurances of God and the promises of men.




Again, there is a difference between the God Who provides the conditions...and the conditions themselves.

Israel awaits these promises being fulfilled, and when they are, they will recognize the difference between the promises and He Who promises.



As it will for everry man who is sincere in seeking after God.



That's great. But I do not spiritualize the events of the Tribulation to refer to every event in man's life. They have a Tribulational application that pertains to the Tribulation.




That is to put it lightly, my friend. But as we look into God, and learn, the first lesson learned is how woefully ignorant we really are. And that is taught by God and used to motivate to continue diligently seeking, and asking, for He Who provides to grant us wisdom, that we might be used for His glory.




And...?

lol



So do we chop this into Tribulational events and suppose that it is we that will cast down this mountain?

No.






And...?

lol

Please try to stay on topic to our off topic discussion.



Faith, prayer, and fasting do not bring about the events of the Tribulation which are in view, Daq.




I would agree with that perspective.



Deuteronomy 7

King James Version (KJV)


1 When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;


That's great, but where is Babylon in your proof-text.







Revelation 17

King James Version (KJV)

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


Where are the seven heads located?


3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And who is the woman?


4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.


And finally Daq...Who destroys the woman that sitteth upon the beast that has seven heads?

The saints? Through Prayer? Sounds good, but I see scripture consistently teaching that God will destroy, and judge...the world system.





And that last great fall of the system and the Devil that holds much of the world in a stranglehold...will be great. Those that have fallen prey to Satan will weep and howl for her, because they know not God and obey not the Gospel, which is not difficult to understand.

Because it is God Himself that brings understanding and man that rejects that convicting work. No man will stand before God and say, "But Lord, that is not what you taught me."

God bless.

You asked several questions that have been answered in my posts above so why do you now ''sigh'' and opine how you had ''so hoped we had gotten to a point where we might return to the OP'' once again? Especially now after eighteen pages of wrangling over seemingly nothingness? Also, by the way, Yeshua clearly interprets the bad or evil ''mountains'' of Scripture as ''devils''. It is right there in front of you quoted from Matthew 17. If you ignore this teaching when it comes to the Book of Daniel, the Book of the Revelation of Yeshua, and any other of the prophetic writings, you are deceiving yourself. The ''mountains'' are therefore not kingdoms of nations found on ''Armageddon war maps'' of Europe or the Middle East.

Luke 11:24-26 KJV
24. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.
25. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.
26. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.

If therefore the ''old man'' goes and takes to himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they return to the former house from whence he came; then does that not make him ''the eighth and of the seven'' according to the Scripture passage which I referenced and you have now quoted? Yes it does make him the eighth and of the seven:

Revelation 17:9-11 KJV
9. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

And yes indeed the Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of Prophecy …