Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[P1LGR1M]

By your reasoning, the glorified saint will also have a body that will not endure the test of time.

bodies are CREATED , only the spirit is endless , and there is only one spirit , undivided, unchanging, without time [so without stream of consciousness]

Incorrect.

God is the Father of spirits. The spirits of men are created by Him, and are seperate...not just little pieces of Him.

Natural man has a spirit. Angels and Demons...ARE spirits. The erroneous beliefs of those that do not understand that create a playground of demon doctrine, such as the deity of men and the brotherhood of Christ and Satan.

"Pre-existant spirits" is a doctrine which plays well into the belief system of several cults.

bodies are CREATED , only the spirit is endless , and there is only one spirit , undivided, unchanging, without time [so without stream of consciousness]

My point is that the saints will, when resurrected, be given bodies like that of Christ when He was raised from the dead. He states specifically He was not a spirit, as He had flesh and bone.

The wicked also will be resurrected, and they too will receive bodies, and it is evident by the fact that Christ and several writers of the New Testament confirm that eternal judgment will be, for the wicked...unending.

bodies are CREATED , only the spirit is endless , and there is only one spirit , undivided, unchanging, without time [so without stream of consciousness]

There is not "only one spirit," strangertoo. This trespasses into new age belief. As much as I like Star Wars, I do not include it in my understanding of spirits and the difference between the Spirit of God, the spirits known as Angels, the spirits of men, and even the spirits which speak of the temperament of men, such as a spirit of fear.

What you imply in this statement is that everyone who has spirit...is part of God, His Spirit.

And it is in error.

but did you notice that the saint is resurrected first , and there is no need to resurrect sinners except that they can become saints in the next life [and countless many do - Rev 7:9-10]

Revelation 7:9-10

King James Version (KJV)


9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.



Honestly, strangertoo, if you would just take some time to actually read Revelation, you would not come to the conclusions you do. Notice above there are people OF ALL NATIONS, not...all people. Now notice...


13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Notice their uniforms, strangertoo? These came out of Great Tribulation, not out of the Lake of Fire.

The desire to negate the teaching of Christ because one wants to believe something they feel is a better way than that which God has stated is inexcusable.

These saints are not purified by a "baptism of fire," they are saved by the death of Christ in their place.

They do not become sanctified because they love without sin...they are sanctified by the blood of Christ...His death in thier place, and faith in that death.

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

but didn't you notice that IN THE END all accept Jesus as king ,

Hard to notice that when that is not what scripture tells us...in the end.

Revelation 20

King James Version (KJV)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Notice that again...


not found written in the book of life


Do you understand what that means? If you cannot understand that there is no escape for those cast into the Lake of Fire, perhaps consider that they are not found written in the Book of Life.

Now, the guys wearing the right uniforms can be seen here as well:


Revelation 3:5

King James Version (KJV)


5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


Where do we read that those that are not written in the book of life wear the uniform, strangertoo?


Revelation 17:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.



Only those whose names are not written in the Book of Life fall prey to Antichrist, for they shall be given strong delusion...by God.

Now, consider carefully:


Revelation 21:27

King James Version (KJV)


27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.



Seeing a pattern here yet? No mention of those whose names are not written in the Book of Life being purified in a baptism of fire, in the Lake of Fire, or by any means.

Only those whose names are written in the Book of Life shall enter the Holy Jerusalem, the City of God.

In other words, you cannot place those not written in the book of life in the Eternal State...they shall in no wise enter into it.


23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.



Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

ALl are in Christ ,

No, strangertoo, all are not in Christ.

All will not be in Christ. There will be those that are blotted from the Book of Life...why do you think annihilationism needs for the wicked to be...erased. Because even most of them can understand that not everyone is going to escape eternal judgment.

all are perfected in Love [baptism of fire] ,

Baptism of Fire...speaks of judgment. Merging teachings is the only way one can conclude that a baptism of fire is a scriptural teaching.

Show me one verse that speaks of a born again believer being immersed in a baptism of fire. Because believers go through "fiery trials" does not mean that believers go through a baptism of fire.

And how you get that ALL are perfected in love is as misplaced as getting ALL will be in Christ, contrary to Christ's own teaching.

the last ones have baptism of fire n the lake , thenit is over,

Sorry, but that is the beginning of punishment, and it is not for the perfecting of the saints.

When saints, strangertoo, are glorified, they will then have reached perfection at it's accomplished end. Resurrected saints will be like Christ, having entered in that which is perfect, which is the eternal state.

They will enter the New Heavens and the New Earth, which is the Eternal State, because they have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb, thereby assuring that their manes will never be blotted out.

Jesus was the beginning, becomes the end for all.... he says so e.g. :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Kind of overlooking the fact that this is at the beginning of the Tribulation, aren't we?

Read ch.6, strangertoo, and it should clear that up. Unless we are to think that everyone is in Christ here, and it is not until the end of the Millennial Kingdom that the Lord blots out the names of the wicked.

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Everyone will come to understand that Christ is Lord, this is true.


Philippians 2

King James Version (KJV)

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



Everyone will confess that Christ is Lord. They can do that now, or they can do it when they are judged.

there is not enough time for everlasting punishment even if it could mean something rather than be meaningless and against masses of scripture

Not enough time...in eternity?

Masses of scriptures?

lol...okay, strangertoo.

and not even a valid translation,

I will take a Spirit filled man with even a paraphrase over a natural man who can speak the original languages. With the exception of the NWT, God can instruct His children with any of them. No major Doctrine comes into conflict, and the basic teachings can be discerned by...the discerning.

apart form accusing God of bizarrely unjust unloving lack of mercy on those who accept Jesus in the lake of fire...

There is not an iota of scriptural evidence suggesting that one will "accept Jesus in the Lake of Fire."

This would require the Lord to admit the fire is quenched, and the worm dies. That the smoke of their torment does not ascend for ever and ever. That those whose names are not in the book of life from the foundation of the world will enter into the Holy City.

It is amazing the lengths gone to, the scripture ignored, to try to prove that scripture does not mean what it says.

when God states over a hundred times that His mercy endures and also says that mercy rejoices AGAINST judgement... how could it be just or Loving to punish men who never even knew Christ existed for ever for their sins whilst many who sin all their lives in this world are 'let off' for just saying they believe the nonsense sinners teach about God ?

It is for you to question God and His word, not me.

And where do you get the idea that God has not given to all men enough to escape the torment that the wicked will receive? Just as the rich man had enough to escape hades, even so every man is given opportunity to escape eternal judgment.

To suggest otherwise os to call God's righteous nature into question.

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

the other will have everlasting punishment, because they rejected life in and through Christ.

nay my friend, the LITERAL translations are in fact the better ones although a saint would never translate scripture anyway

Horse feathers!

lol...sorry, I am fond of Harry Morgan.

Hmmm...a saint would not translate scripture. Who exactly would do it, strangertoo?

You are aware that the Lord Himself quoted from a translation? Did the Lord quote a "sinner's translation?"

[has no need, he is taught directly by God and his task in life is mostly only to persuade a few folks to TRY Love so God can TEACH them Himself as Jesus promised [e.g, John 16:13] ...

So we play Holy Spirit? We are the ones that persuade people to love God? Do you realize how far off base this is?

God needs us to prepare people so He can teach them?

Ridiculous. Praise God His mercy does indeed endure.

the danger of translations is demonstrated by the variety in them ...

Right.

Here is an example:

Psalm 40:6

King James Version (KJV)


6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.




Hebrews 10:5

King James Version (KJV)


5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:



What do both of these verses convey?

it makes all the difference between following God or Satan , just a single mistranslated word,

You certainly have very little faith in God.

He is ABLE.

Can you tell me where this translation goes astray?


2 Timothy 1:12

King James Version (KJV)


12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.



Or this one...


Jude 1:24

King James Version (KJV)


24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,



or perhaps this one...


Philippians 1:6

King James Version (KJV)


6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:



...?

What in the translation is in error, that we cannot trust God to accomplish salvation in the lives of His children?

and Satan knows that weakness in men , exploits it to first divide religion,

Satan exploits ignorance, always has, always will.

God corrects it.

then unite it in faith in him once the tribulations begin to bite and men start wondering if they might need saving ...

Only those that reject Christ will suffer the vengeance of God:


2 Thessalonians 1:6-9

King James Version (KJV)


6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



Where in this do we see the wicked redeemed from the judgment they receive. How does one come to this conclusion? Because they ignore that the wicked will be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Okay, we are in the final stretch, strangertoo...hang in there!

easy salvation has been sold, even for money and for power of men, all down the ages... it reaches a climax soon now -Rev 13:3-4

Revelation 13

King James Version (KJV)



3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?



This will indeed be a high point in Satan's career in deception. And I too believe it will be soon.

Tell you what: I will come back to the response you gave to my post addressing your timeline of events, though it will be...drudgery.

well my friend you only reveal that you are complacent in your faith in sinners ,

Really? You might be right about that, but for the wrong reason: you see, while in this flesh all men will...sin. But my faith is not in sinners, but in the God that transforms the lives of sinners.

but I am sorry, sinners CANNOT save you ,

I am sorry but you are doing exactly what you do with the scriptures...adding your addition to what is said.

Quote me saying I believe sinners can do anything but be saved.

It is actually you that teach that sinners somehow contribute to the work of God. Can I quote you? Thanks...

Originally Posted by strangertoo

[has no need, he is taught directly by God and his task in life is mostly only to persuade a few folks to TRY Love so God can TEACH them Himself as Jesus promised [e.g, John 16:13] ...
​

they do not know God or Jesus, only fakes created by Satan's lies about God and Jesus... but seriously you should not find God's Truth a drudgery ...

It is not God's truth I find drudgery, my friend, it is answering and responding to posts that have as little clarity as these do.

It has indeed been...drudgery.

If you condemn others for believing Satan's lies, yet seek to teach like this, where then do you place yourself, my friend?

if you do not wish to discuss it openly then you are surely in the wrong place ...

Have you ever known me to teach privately? Or said there is something that I do not want to discuss publicly?

Again, you bear false witness. Is this sin, strangertoo, or is it okay when you do it, thus making it not a sin to disregard the command of God?

so please understand that my only interest here is in persuading folks t Love , not sin in their lives, because that way they get baptised of the spirit and KNOW all the answers here from God directly ...

Simply said, you seek to lead men to religion.

I don't think anyone here has missed that, strangertoo.

So tell me, how many people are you responsible for being baptized of the spirit.

And exactly what spirit is it that they were baptized of?

the problem for all religious sinners is that they do not stop sinning first, but join this or that church of sinners and learn whatever Satan is selling that group...

So one must first stop sinning...and then join a church.

Or is it...just stop sinning. A little Nany Reaganish, there..."Just say No!"

The problem with that is that just like the drug addict, a sinner cannot "just stop sinning." The onlymeans by which one can even learn to discern sin in their lives is regeration.

And by the way...God does that. Not you. Not me. Only God has that power.

so the smart thing to do is what scripture says,

Finally, something I can agree with.

But for you, there is a problem, because you need to paste together the right translations from varying bibles.

That must get rather messy.

the first step is to stop sinning [water baptism with its commitment to depart from iniquity , the water splashing is just a dramatic symbolic ritual, saves no-one ] :-

Stop sinning...then God will accept you?

And be water baptized?

So those that sin after they are water baptized are...what? They can't sin anymore, right?

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The implication here, just as in all scripture that exhorts holiness, is that sin is still possible for the believer, because they still have the proclivity to sin. That is the lust of the eyes, and of the flesh, and the pride of life.

Have you, strangertoo...departed from iniquity? Do you no longer sin?

those that are his stop sinning , well worth reading and taking that in , why if one obeys Jesus and Loves folks it menas NOT abusing them with ANY sins against them... no sinner knows Jesus or God :-

All men are sinners. The difference being, some of us have had the penalty of our sin paid in the Person of Jesus Christ.

It is written:


1 John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



Indeed...well worth taking in.

1 John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

It would be good to back up, that a balanced understanding of John's teacing can be understood:


1 John 2

King James Version (KJV)


1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:



Take a look at the greek on this one.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Did you catch that part...the wicked one toucheth him not?

In view, strangertoo, is a pattern of sin which is unbroken. Do you say you do not sin? Then John also says...


1 John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)



8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.


10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



How does that fit into a system in which one feels he is sinless?

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil;

1 John 1:8-10

King James Version (KJV)




8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.



9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.



10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.



Find a balance as to how John does not contradict himnelf.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Exactly. Now balance this...


1 John 4:10

King James Version (KJV)


10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.




...with your teaching that we help people to love so they can be baptized of spirit.

so Love is the key to knowing ALL Truth of God from God [John 16:13], any sin prevents that -Ezekiel 18:24

No, strangertoo, it isn't:


John 16:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.



The Holy Spirit is the "key."


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

why ? -Jesus explains :-

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

This is why...

Love is the key to knowing ALL Truth of God from God [John 16:13], any sin prevents that -Ezekiel 18:24

Please, I beg of you...buy a study bible.

sin is mostly habitual ,

Mostly? lol

Sin is...natural. It is inherited. It is as diverse as snowflakes. But it boils down to offense against the Holy Character of God.

Sin is rebellion.

it becomes part of one's life to live in denial of conscience, heart of Love, spirit, and mind... all of which told one when one sinned, but got DENIED ... and so denial got easier and facing the shame of sin in repentance got harder...

Who are you talking about? The natural man will sin, and that is all he can do. The regenerated man will also sin, but the indwelling of God will remove sin from his life.

Of course, we have the ability to grieve and wuench the Spirit of God, and hinder the work He seeks to perform in our lives.

but the ONLY wages of sin is death to remove sin [Rom 6:7] ,

And again you add to the word of God. We do not read the "wages of sin is death to remove sin."

Here is Romans 6:7...


Romans 6:7

King James Version (KJV)


7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.



And here is the verse you had in mind:


Romans 6:23

King James Version (KJV)


23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.



Nothing there about "death removing sin. What is there is a contrast between the two options available for man: death, or eternal life through Christ. Nothing about man's contribution to the work of the Cross.

And here is the verse that supports your teaching:


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

far easier than grace, but one still has to perfect Love later

Only God can perfect the saints.

,and one has to put up with more delay in knowing Jesus and God truly insead of the false images in religion of sinners under Satan...

No, strangertoo, they don't:


2 Corinthians 6:2

King James Version (KJV)


2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)

it is indeed impossible to include context i all the quotes here,

No, it isn't. Much of scripture is self explanatory...it is your commentary that destroys context. I have shown on a number of occasions where you have taken verses out of context yet you continue, unashamedly, doing so.

one can only hope folks will read every word of God for themselves BEFORE posting here [but it is in vain one hopes that]

This is almost too funny.

I would laugh out loud if it was not so heartbreaking.

since you have made errors of translation, I would suggest dealing with one point at a time... there is no rush ...

Well, that is usually how I do it, point by point. I have been lazy with you, strangertoo, so I will try to correct that.

God bless.

 

[strangertoo]

Actually, strangertoo, my understanding is that your translation and your commentary inserts what is not there.

In the verse supplied there is no reference to hades or the lower hades...it is tartaroo. Used once in scripture...men consider it the lowest hades.

well I'm no expe4rt on things that don't exist [LOL?] but I guess my slip of the pen was because I thought there were only two supposed levels in Hades, so the lowest would be the lower , but frankly it's mythological nonsense [or just poetic licenece] anyway as I have proved elsewhere ... there is only the body and the spirit at death and the spirit never left God, the body is destroyed with the earth and heavens... so what is hell for ? , just a poetic idea about the continuity of life [soul] in death , but few would say life and death are not mutually exclusive...

And I wish you would supply the scripture to show this...what you may not realise is that God judges justly and only on whether any life is perfectly Loving yet or not ...

e.g. :-
Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

1 John 4:17 Herein, hath love with us, been made perfect,—in order that, boldness, we might have in the day of judging,—in that, just as, He, is, we also, are, in this world.

baptism of fire is the perfection of Love, the third of the three baptisms necessary for salvation , as Jesus demonstrated for us ... showed us the way of Love...

As I said before...invest in a study bible.

Why did you not read my reply, study bibles are made by sinners who do not even know God or Jesus according to scripture [but they never seem able to admit that and see that God teaches ALL the saints Himself, no need of any teaching by any man after one is persuaded to TRY Love instead of sin...

What I do know is that God understands salvation does not bring temporal perfection. It is quite impossible for unredeemed flesh to be perfect. This is just basic.

redemption is translation to spirit, so the idea of redeemed flesh is an oxymoron... but you are mistaken, Jesus was PERFECT in love in the flesh and all saints are as he is , perfected in Love in the flesh and forgiven all past sins by grace... and it is God's judgement ,not man's , of the perfection of Love

Romans 8:29 For, whom he fore-approved, he also fore-appointed to be conformed unto the image of his Son, that he might be firstborn among many brethren

1 John 3:2 Beloved! now, are we, children of God; and, not yet, hath it been made manifest, what we shall be,—We know that, if it should be made manifest, like unto him, shall we be, because we shall see him, just as he is.
1 John 3:3 And, whosoever hath this hope on him, is purifying himself, just as, He, is pure.
...
1 John 3:7 Dear children! Let, no one, lead you astray! He that is doing righteousness, is, righteous, just as, He, is righteous:

Originally Posted by strangertoo

by His standard , not ours...
​

You say that...then give me your standards, which, I will admit, interest me very little.

it doesn't matter what our standards are, it is judged by God not us...

Originally Posted by strangertoo

the purpos of progressive salvation is to make life prgressively more impossible for the wicked so they see their mistake,
​

lol...alrighty then.

Do you ever go back and read what you post, strangertoo?

The purpose of salvation is for the purpose of bringing the saint to conformity to the desired result God wants in our lives. That the infantile sluggard can finally...grow up. Leave a childlike understanding ofscripture so he can actually practice what he preaches.

God says He can turn all creation around to Love through Jesus Christ , including Satan ... frankly it is bizarre that you doubt God's capability when it is stated in scripture ... I wonder that you do not knwo all things are possible for God simply by Love... as for little children they are the easiest and any sluggard can be inspired by Love ... I think you need to either read more scripture or stop sinning and let God teach you instead of getting your ideas from sinners who simply cannot even possibly know according to scripture ...

1 John 3:14 We, know, that we have passed over out of death into life, because we love the brethren: he that loveth not, abideth in death.

sinners do not Love, sin is unlovingness, diabolical abuse of fellow man even

Proverbs 15:12 A scoffer, loveth not, one who reproveth him, unto the wise, doth he not go.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love

Originally Posted by strangertoo

because the pleasure of God is to turn the wicked around and He creates enough time in two universes only to do all His pleasure,
​

Strangertoo...turn off the Sci-Fi channel, okay, it is not a good place to work out our salvation.

Please give me the scriptural basis for this statement. I ask this quite often, but to no avail.

for the umpteenth time then :-

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live

Originally Posted by strangertoo

turn around everyone, even Satan in the end, prodigal son of God...
​

Satan will forever be separated from God, as will those that reject God.

Their fate is an everlasting punishment.

You can continue to embrace this amalgam of beliefs but I can assure you...Satan is not God's "prodigal son." He will not be redeemed, but will be judged.

it's strange that you refuse to prove your "assurances" from scripture yet ignore my proofs from scripture that you are mistaken repeatedly ... you seem to have come here to assert that these things you learned from sinners are true, but refuse to be reproved by scripture that proves they are false ... so I have to inform you that in discussion you too are subject to having to PROVE what you assert and you consistently refuse ... whereas you could LEARN much from your many mistakes if you mind simply opened to the Truth of God instead of clinging to these falsehoods of sinners who do not know, cannot know God or Jesus ...

now Jesus sates that all creation will accept him as king and that means accepting his 'rod of iron' Law of Love in his kingdom in the new earth...thus all creation is saved, and Satan is indeed a created being... so you are simply asserting Jesus is mistaken, but he is not :-

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

God has no option not to Love all creation because He is God... and God's pleasure is to turn all the wicked and He can and will do all His pleasure , so again God says Satan too will be saved in the end of time

so a suggestion, do not PRESUME you are right BEFORE hearing and considering the reply

Originally Posted by strangertoo

Jesus confirms this , the whole creation will accept Jesus and thus Love, stop sinning against one another because it just makes life unbearable for everyone...
​

No, actually, scripture consistently teaches that there is judgment coming for unbelievers, not that all will be saved. Christian Universalism is a satanic ploy to lull the spiritually dead and the spiritual amnesiac away from truth, that they might be effective witnesses for Christ.

Sounds great, there is just no way to reconcile this view with scripture.

that is not anywhere near evidence from scripture , so where is your evidence ... please do not quote your mistranslation all over again, read the Rotherham Emphasized Bible and Young's literal translation and at least see that very serious scholars DOUBT it , REFUSE it , it is not a valid basis of belief

Originally Posted by strangertoo

I do not need to personally, spirit baptism provides all Truth , but one cannot convey that ...
​

Wrong. On a couple of points. First, only those that are saved are baptized with the Spirit of God.

that is mistaken... after baptism of the spirit Love has to be perfected in baptism of fire before one even can be translated to spirit ['saved']

 

[strangertoo]

Secondly, it is exactly progressive sanctification by which the Spirit of God leads men into ALL truth...it is not a onetime event, but a lifelong process.

it can hardly be a lifetime process as one would die a sinner, as most do ... one has to prove one's faith in Love in baptism of fire during life after spirit baptism, so it cannot even possibly be a lifelong process ... and if one cannot bear all Truth of God then Satan will surely tempt one to sin again and all one's righetousness counts for nothing -Ezek 18:24

Lastly, God can convey His truth quite effectively through His servants, as scripture consistently shows.

well ,no it does not, and again you cite no proof, just waving your arms in the air ... scripture states that God will teach ALL the saints Himself and they will not even teach one another [Heb 8:10-11] ... Jesus states that he will send the holy spirit to teach his followers -John 16:13,

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Originally Posted by strangertoo

ironic that any sinner can become a priest without spirit baptism and folks have faith in his deceptions by Satan simply because he dresses like the [failed] OT priesthood [LOL?] ,
​

This assumes that all Catholic Priests engage in the kind of activity that we see in the media.

no it doesn't, it is based on what the scripture says toward Rev 13:3-4

Ever wonder why the media never reports on the Catholic Priests that are not pedophiles? Why they never run a story about the priests that are sincere in their beliefs and do what they can to shepherd those placed in their charge? Why don't you start meeting some of these priests, strangertoo, then you can change your assumptions and false witness to an actual statement based upon truth?

well you raised this matter, I was only talking about the scriptural witness , that sinner cannot be priests of God ... but the pope sent one of his messages to everyone saying priests are not allowed to witness in court against peadophile priests... for him to do that shows how widespread the problem of sin of priests is, the chirch of sinners wrecking the lives of young boys and not only not addressing the problem but making a haven to attract even more paedophiles into the church where their perversion is sheltered from prosecution under the law... by the pope! it's so disgusting I hardly have words for how evil that is...

And I do not know why you would consider the Priesthood God created to have failed. The Levitical Priesthood did not fail, it accomplished exactly what God intended it to, which is...temporary covering of sin. When Israel divided, the Levitical Priests headed south so they could fulfill their duty as Priests.

Jesus spoke of many ways the Levitical priesthood failed alongside all Israel, read about it one day you have some time

You speak, sorry, in ignorance. On all points.

you proved nothing from scripture at all... just waved your arms in the air and repeated the words of sinners.... whereas I have repeatedly proved all points from scripture because that is where they came from in response to promptings from God... [as my own inspiration is no use in discussion except to guide my arguments... but you have not proved ANYTHING at all... and yet you accuse me falsely on all points even though they are based on stated scriptures [and far more , including conversations with God on the harder points] and yours are based on NOTHING WHATSOEVER , you have proved NOTHING and yet simply assert ... that is NOT discussion my friend... and despite you assertions, I am far from ignorant of your false assertions, they are commonplace and I have disproved them all from scripture many times and in many independent ways from scripture ... you NEED to reprove your ideas to scripture of God because you have believed sinners... deceived by Satan:-

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Originally Posted by strangertoo

yet because there is no uniform for Jesus and the saints, no-one believes them except saints ... ironic then , men elect to believe men who do not have the Truth, cannot know God or Jesus because they are still sinners, but disbelieve the saints because the saints are sure of what they say because God taught them Himself... quite amusing ,no?
​

There is a uniform, stragnertoo, it is white linen, and it is not granted because people stop sinning. Apart from God no man is able to war against Satan, sin, and the flesh.

again you deny the scripture , masses of scripture about the perfection of Love in saints of God and saints being the very image of perfect Jesus , as perfect as God , I can only quote some here, but you really do need to read the scripture e.g. :-

Matthew 5:48 ye shall therefore be perfect, as your Father who is in the heavens is perfect.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Only through the empowerment of the Spirit of God can man put away sin, and mortify the deeds of the flesh.

if you had had spirit baptism you would understand that teh first Truth God gives is the Truth about oneself so that one can repent all one's sins which one does not admit to oneself, but one does not receive spirit baptism until one has ceased all desire to sin [by understanding sin is unloving, abuse,] and giving up all sin one acknowledges to oneself... God looks on what one desires in one's heart, He does not expect one to acknowledge what one cannot... but part of one's repentance is this first Truth about oneself in spirit baptism, so one can begin trial to perfect Love with no weaknesses that Satan would surely exploit if one wanted to sin still at all...

As far as men having truth, again, apart from the Spirit of God, man needs...a study bible, lol.

that is false advice, sinners are nothing but a liability and all study bibles are written by sinners, not saints... a saint would never do such a thing ...
the holy spirit will teach all Truth one surely does not need what sinners say from Satan...

Originally Posted by strangertoo

... fortunately it matters not, God has no interest yet in men who just want to sin all this life ,
​

Excuse me? Didn't you just say...

because the pleasure of God is to turn the wicked around and He creates enough time in two universes only to do all His pleasure,
​

...?

And now you say God interest in them?

God does not save the most wicked until the lake of fire ...

This is the problem with not having at least a somewhat stable grasp on Biblical Doctrine...you end up contradicting yourself. That does not come from God, for He does not author confusion, and the hodge-podge offering here is just that...confused.

it's you who are confused by learning from sinners , my words have been tested for consistence over fifty years studying scripture alone with God, now I am rady to discuss with sinners and reprove their beliefs to scripture, hopefully learn som new things myself from them too.... but you don't even knw the scripture and content yourself with teachings of sinners... just keep asserting they must be true, but i have proved they are not true to scripture and also know [only in myself of course] that they are not true to the holy spirit of God ... but I am not here to challenge anyone's faith in sinners ,there is not enough time and it isn't what this site is for, but only to discuss the scripture ... so PLEASE stop asserting and waving your arms and QUOTE the scripture so we can discuss it ...

Originally Posted by strangertoo

it is not time to deal with them yet , the wages of sin is death and they live grey lives not knowing what it is to Love without sin, how it gives life abundantly as Jesus said...
​

So it is God's "pleasure to turn wicked men around," though He really has no interest in them, so He will let them wait to be made to love...in the Lake of Fire.

God doesn't make anyone do anything, Love can ONLY be given freely ... but Love is so powerful and God's Plan of persuasion so foolproof that God has said with absolute assurabnce all will accept Jesus as king, God will do all his pleasure in turning the wicked to Love perfectly in the final baptism of fire in the lake...

You seem to think that love is the only issue in the life of a believer.

faith is faith in God and God is Love... so without faith in Love enough to perfect it in life one will not be saved until at best the next life after death frees one from sin

How about...hating sin? Is it okay to do that?

if one loves Love and we know sin is the very opposite of Love, then one is going to abhor sin, it is a tautology , not something new ...

Wait, lets look at this again:


Originally Posted by strangertoo

it is not time to deal with them yet , the wages of sin is death and they live grey lives not knowing what it is to Love without sin, how it gives life abundantly as Jesus said...
​

Loving without sin gives abundant life?

Satan would have you believe that, so that you could pursue abundant life by "loving without sin."

The fact is, my friend, only Christ is Holy, Harmless, Undefiled, sepaerate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens.

sure, but grace is the forgiveness of past sins once one stops sinning so it matters not what sins one did before water baptism, only that one sins no more after spirit baptism...

The rest of us, well...we have to deal with sin. Both in our lives and the lives of others. Unless of course you are completely isolated from everyone else.

sufferng from others' sin is part of the long-suffering of being a saint ,but one has to keep oneself from sin else one will become servant to sin as Jesus says...

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

In other words...your insistence of sinlessness does not impress me, as I believe scripture is clear that it is not possible for man to be perfectly sinless.

Amazingly you didn't even read what I pointed out in scripture ... a saint is only required to STOP sinning , not to have never sinned in his life... it is a FREE CHOICE , either one wants to abuse with sin or one wants to follwo Jesus and perfect one's Love, one CANNOT do BOTH , Jesus insists on DIVISION of saints from all who still sin, he will NOT take any still sinning :-

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Is that what you want people to believe? That you do not sin?

I will say this once again, God is the judge , not men... so I only care what God judges at time of Jesus' return , certainly not what sinners imagine in their inattention to their own sins standing between them and God and between them and Christ... one must choose between Love or sin oneself... and God will judge [repeatedly in up to three lives until one chooses Love because one freely sees it is a better way to live IN LIFE, as God and Jesus and the saints say, advise, promote, and show...

 

[P1LGR1M]

well I'm no expe4rt on things that don't exist [LOL?] but I guess my slip of the pen was because I thought there were only two supposed levels in Hades, so the lowest would be the lower , but frankly it's mythological nonsense [or just poetic licenece] anyway

Things that don't exist?


2 Peter 2:4

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


4 For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast [them] down to Tartarus, did deliver [them] to judgment, having been reserved,



Do you understand that these demons have already been placed in an unending punishment? And that is contrasted with the judgment awaiting the wicked?


9 The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep,


10 and chiefly those going behind the flesh in desire of uncleanness, and lordship despising; presumptuous, self-complacent, dignities they are not afraid to speak evil of,


12 and these, as irrational natural beasts, made to be caught and destroyed -- in what things they are ignorant of, speaking evil -- in their destruction shall be destroyed,


There is nothing in this to suggest the wicked will be saved, but as scripture consistently teaches, they will be continually destroyed.

as I have proved elsewhere ... there is only the body and the spirit at death and the spirit never left God, the body is destroyed with the earth and heavens...

The only thing proved so far is an unwillingness to heed what scripture teaches and a willingness to use scripture as one sees fit, and to add to scripture that which is not there.

as I have proved elsewhere ... there is only the body and the spirit at death and the spirit never left God,

That is funny, for the Lord taught that the rich man's body was buried, and that he found himself in torment in Hades. So I must have missed your "proof" elsewhere.


1 Corinthians 2:11-15

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.

12 And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,

13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,

14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;

15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;


In other words, the unsaved cannot understand the spiritual things of God...because they do not have the Spirit of God.

How then is it said...

there is only the body and the spirit at death and the spirit never left God,

If there is but one spirit, why then does the Spirit inspire Paul to write of the spirit of men and the spirit of God? Natural man has a spirit, but it is dead. Even as men are "dead in trespasses and sins," even so he is dead spiritually, because he is seperated from God.

the body is destroyed with the earth and heavens...

Incorrect.

In the Rapture, the Catching away, there will be those in Christ still physically alive who will be, in the twinkling of an eye...changed. They will receive glorified bodies such the Lord has. Those bodies will be flesh and bone, and suited for the everlasting life they will enjoy in the New Heavens and the New Earth.

Likewise, the dead, those that do not have the eternal life which only the Eternal God can impart, will also be resurrected in bodies which will be suitable for the everlasting punishment they receive.

Follow the sequence of events:

Revelation 20:10-15

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.


Satan is cast into the Lake of Fire, the place of punishment and seperation from God. Already there is the Antichrist and the False Prophet, both men. Even the YLT inserts [are] because it is implied. Will you accept that from your favorite (or one of) translations?

Nothing mentioned about an end of this age, but it is ages of the ages, properly translated according to context...for ever and ever.

Now, concerning Christian Universalism, and worse, the redemption of Satan, let me ask a question: does Satan blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Does he lead men to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Answer that question and tell why this...


Matthew 12:32

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


32 And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming.



Boom! Christian Universalism just exploded. Please do not confuse that with the event we will see in the next verse:



11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;


Notice the passing away of the earth and the heaven. Now notice who did not pass away:



12 and I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and scrolls were opened, and another scroll was opened, which is that of the life, and the dead were judged out of the things written in the scrolls -- according to their works;

13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;

14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;

15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.



Just a note to anyone who may be reading this: this is probably the direst of doctrines you will be faced with in scripture, and it is a brutal truth...the eternal separation fo those that know not God and obey not the Gospel. THese are they which blaspheme the Holy Spirit, despising God and the work He seeks to do in their hearts, that they might escape this fate.

But...we have to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help us God. And He will both help those that are sincere in turning to Him as well as those that have been converted to speak the truth in love.

We do not rejoice that these will be forever seperated from God, and for this cause I believe we read...


Revelation 21:4

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


4 and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be any more, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be any more pain, because the first things did go away.'



I think that for all of us there will be a sadness caused by the loss of those we knew. In this verse the saints are glorified, and there is sorrow, yet we see also the "first things did go away," which I believe to be a reference to the things of this creation.''

Now is the time to understand the fate of those that reject Christ, and to better know the truth that they might escape this most fearsome of judgments imposed upon man, as well as Satan and his angels.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

so what is hell for ? ,

Exactly what the Lord taught it was for...puinishment. It is awfully hard to miss that.

just a poetic idea about the continuity of life [soul] in death , but few would say life and death are not mutually exclusive...

No, not a poetic idea, but a teaching of Christ which, if ignored, places men in the most severe position one could hope not to be.

As far as...

but few would say life and death are not mutually exclusive...

...this is true. The Lord taught that men that do not eat of His flesh and drink of His blood, which is speaking of faith in His death in their place...do not have life. This includes even the natural man, who physically is alive, but is spiritually dead, because he is seperated from Goid, and does not have the Spirit of God within him. For us, in this life, we can full well understand the seperation death of a loved one imposes. To see this in regards to spiritual life...it is not so easy.

We can, though, after we are saved, look back on our lives and identify sin in our lives, and the fact that though we thought ourselves to be good, we have only a human perspective in which to rule upon our "goodness."

We can now see that God spoke truly, that our greatest righteousnesses were as filthy rags. That which we once exalted ourselves concerning our "goodness," we now can compare to the righteous character of God and see it as different in both nature and works as a child's effort compared with that of an adult. And even that analogy does not speak of the incredible depth of our sin compared to God's righteousness.

e.g. :-
Revelation 15:3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

1 John 4:17 Herein, hath love with us, been made perfect,—in order that, boldness, we might have in the day of judging,—in that, just as, He, is, we also, are, in this world.

How do these verses support this...

what you may not realise is that God judges justly and only on whether any life is perfectly Loving yet or not ...

...?

God does not just judge "only on whether any life is perfectly Loving yet or not."

here are a few things God judges in the lives of men:


Galatians 5:19-21

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


19 And manifest also are the works of the flesh, which are: Adultery, whoredom, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects,

21 envyings, murders, drunkennesses, revellings, and such like, of which I tell you before, as I also said before, that those doing such things the reign of God shall not inherit.



Personally, the KJV is far superior to this, as it is presented in such a way that it is easier to understand. It is a shame that some get so caught up in translational issues that they deprive themselves of a translation they can actually understand.

baptism of fire is the perfection of Love, the third of the three baptisms necessary for salvation , as Jesus demonstrated for us ...

Poodle feathers! lol

There is ONE baptism associated with salvation:


Ephesians 4

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)



5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,



This is contrasted to the baptism with fire which shall devour the enemies.


Matthew 3:10-12

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


10 and now also, the axe unto the root of the trees is laid, every tree therefore not bearing good fruit is hewn down, and to fire is cast.


As mentioned earlier in this post, this is not a pruning effort...you don't prune the root, you prune the branches. The fruit demanded of the Pharisees and Sadducees (the Sadducees did not believe in things supernatural: that is why they were so sad, you see?) is represented in this verse as evidence the tree is bad and the fruit evil...it is to be cut down, not pruned.


11 `I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire,


In an effort to fortify annihilation the two baptisms here, both performed by Christ, are said to both apply to believers. The problem with that is the context here as well as the rest of scripture...will not support this. Is John saying, "You brood of vipers! How lucky you are, because you are going to be born again and then pruned!"

No.

Is he saying, "You brood of vipers, if you start bearing good fruit you will be batized with the Holy Ghost and with fire?"

No.

Is he saying...

10 and now also, the axe unto the root of the trees is laid, every tree therefore not bearing good fruit is hewn down, and to fire is cast.

11 `I indeed do baptize you with water to reformation, but he who after me is coming is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to bear the sandals, he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire,

...yes. You got it. He is saying that judgment is ready to fall, the danger is being cut down, not pruned. He calls them to repent in truth, because though he baptizes with water unto repentance, One is coming that will baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire.


12 whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor, and will gather his wheat to the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.'



Two outcomes are given here: baptism with the Holy Ghost, or, baptism with fire (judgment). Those baptized with the Holy Ghost are they which are gathered into His garner, and those baptized with fire "he will burn with unquenchable fire. The Lord will later teach about judgment using the same illustration of unquenchable fire.

When does this baptism occur?


Acts 1:5

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


5 because John, indeed, baptized with water, and ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit -- after not many days.'



The Lord does not say "You will be baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire, because judgment is not associated with the New Birth, which is when we receive the Spirit of God, and are immersed into Christ.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

showed us the way of Love...

Now consider the love of Peter, after three years of being showed the way of love:


John 18:10

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


10 Simon Peter, therefore, having a sword, drew it, and struck the chief priest's servant, and cut off his right ear -- and the name of the servant was Malchus --



Quite an example of the Love of God, eh? But we cannot be too hard on poor Peter, because he was not yet born of the Spirit. He was not yet saved, except in that capacity afforded unto Old Testament saints, which is the category, until Pentecost...all saints fell into.

How do we know that?


Acts 1:5

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


5 because John, indeed, baptized with water, and ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit -- after not many days.'


Because we are told.

Why did you not read my reply, study bibles are made by sinners who do not even know God or Jesus according to scripture

Incorrect. There are a number of godly men that have produced study bibles. MacArthur, Sproul, and I would recommend the commentary of Spiros Zodhiates (in case one might be interested in a Christian biblical Greek scholar).

And I do not recommend the study bible for the commentary alone, but for the cross referencing. The MacArthur study bible is, I believe, the most comprehensive as far as cross referencing goes.

A standard NKJV would probably go a long way in this regard.

[but they never seem able to admit that and see that God teaches ALL the saints Himself, no need of any teaching by any man after one is persuaded to TRY Love instead of sin...

It is quite obvious that despite the willingness of the Lord to teach His children, some follow the pattern of those rebuked by the writer of Hebrews:


Hebrews 5:11-13

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


11 concerning whom we have much discourse and of hard explanation to say, since ye have become dull of hearing,

12 for even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what [are] the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food,

13 for every one who is partaking of milk [is] unskilled in the word of righteousness -- for he is an infant,



Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

redemption is translation to spirit,

That's a big negatory, good buddy: redemption is being bought back. Just like salvation in the general sense, we are redeemed, just as we are saved. However, we have yet to receive our glorified bodies, therefore, we await the redemption of the bodies we now reside in.


Romans 8:23

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


23 And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;



I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly groan at times...looking for the day of the Lord's return. It is my hope to be a part of the Rapture. Not that death is a concern, but, that will be an experience for those that participate.

so the idea of redeemed flesh is an oxymoron...

No, it is biblical doctrine.


1 John 3

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


2 beloved, now, children of God are we, and it was not yet manifested what we shall be, and we have known that if he may be manifested, like him we shall be, because we shall see him as he is;



Romans 6:5

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


5 For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, [so] also we shall be of the rising again;


All saints will not just have bodies suited for eternal existance, but will, unlike the dead, have eternal life.

but you are mistaken, Jesus was PERFECT in love in the flesh and all saints are as he is ,

See above.

We will be like Him, but we are not like Him now. We remain in unredeemed flesh which is still part of this cursed creation, which also groans to be delivered:



Romans 8

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

22 for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now.

23 And not only [so], but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting -- the redemption of our body;


26 And, in like manner also, the Spirit doth help our weaknesses; for, what we may pray for, as it behoveth [us], we have not known, but the Spirit himself doth make intercession for us with groanings unutterable,


Again it is the Spirit of God empowering, and in fact interceding for the saint.

perfected in Love in the flesh and forgiven all past sins by grace...

Just not a biblical truth, but a deception Satan has implanted in those without understanding of sin and it's relation to the flesh, even...among the saints. We know that it is possible for a saint to be tempted, and to yield to sin. We know that the saint is called to...


Romans 8:13

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


13 for if according to the flesh ye do live, ye are about to die; and if, by the Spirit, the deeds of the body ye put to death, ye shall live;



Before those that have fallen into the error of perfectionism which John addresses in his first epistle get too excited about finding a proof-text for thier doctrine, understand that the deeds of the body are put to death...by the Spirit of God. Paul also says this here...


Romans 8

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


1 There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit;



This is not a condition placed upon the believer, it is a statement of fact: born again believersdonot walk according to the flesh as natural man does, he walks according to the Spirit of God. We see that promise here:


Ezekiel 36:27

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


27 And My Spirit I give in your midst, And I have done this, so that in My statutes ye walk, And My judgments ye keep, and have done them.


Again, I do not think this translation conveys that which is imparted in this passage, but, we can still see that obedience to God, which was not found in Israel, is found in the fulfillment of the characteristics of the New Birth.

It is the indwelling of God by which we are able to obey God.

Paul also speaks about the unredeemed flesh and the potential for sin and the need to put it to death:


Colossians 3:5-7

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


5 Put to death, then, your members that [are] upon the earth -- whoredom, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and the covetousness, which is idolatry --

6 because of which things cometh the anger of God upon the sons of the disobedience,

7 in which also ye -- ye did walk once, when ye lived in them;



Again we see that "once walked" according to the flesh, having no power to control it. Now, the fruit of the Spirit is self control, and by that we can mortify the deeds of the flesh.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

and it is God's judgement ,not man's , of the perfection of Love

Romans 8:29 For, whom he fore-approved, he also fore-appointed to be conformed unto the image of his Son, that he might be firstborn among many brethren

And this will be fulfilled in us in two primary ways: 1) we will be, through the progressive sanctifying work of God, made to be more like Him in this life; 2) we will be glorified, receiving bodies suited to eternity, just as He was glorified.

At this point in time, no man has been glorified. Only Christ has received a glorified body.

1 John 3:2 Beloved! now, are we, children of God; and, not yet, hath it been made manifest, what we shall be,—We know that, if it should be made manifest, like unto him, shall we be, because we shall see him, just as he is.
1 John 3:3 And, whosoever hath this hope on him, is purifying himself, just as, He, is pure.
...

Like Him...shall we be."

Not, "Like Him...we are ."

The latter refers to the effort we put into the sanctification which is in regards to our existence here, which can be best seen as the opposite of grieving and quenching the Holy Spirit. It is yielding to Him in obedience.

1 John 3:7 Dear children! Let, no one, lead you astray! He that is doing righteousness, is, righteous, just as, He, is righteous:

Originally Posted by strangertoo

by His standard , not ours...





​

You say that...then give me your standards, which, I will admit, interest me very little.

it doesn't matter what our standards are, it is judged by God not us...

Glad this is brought up: here we see that it is a consistent pattern of righteousness which contrasts the consistent pattern of sin. Not that if a believer ever sins after salvation, there is a new scorecard which negates the salvific work of Christ which affords man the new birth.

This is a difficult point for those that engage in temporal perfectionism to grasp, apparently.

God says He can turn all creation around to Love through Jesus Christ , including Satan ...

Okay, where does He say that? Please do not repeat the same verses already posted because they do not teach this.

Nor is the specific teaching of the finality of the Lake of Fire negated.

frankly it is bizarre that you doubt God's capability when it is stated in scripture ...

Again, it is not God's word that is doubted, it the conclusions some draw.

Hodge-podgery. lol

I wonder that you do not knwo all things are possible for God simply by Love...

Can God lie...in love?

Can He deny Himself in love?

That is what is suggested. God has been specific in His word and only by merging and blurring biblical truth can one come to some of these conclusions, and even then, some of them are borderline blasphemous.

as for little children they are the easiest and any sluggard can be inspired by Love ... I think you need to either read more scripture or stop sinning

Well, which is it? Will reading scripture save? Will showing love save? Will the cessation of sin save?

If so, then the lost could hope for a coma, rather than be obedient to the Gospel.

and let God teach you instead of getting your ideas from sinners who simply cannot even possibly know according to scripture ...

1 John 3:14 We, know, that we have passed over out of death into life, because we love the brethren: he that loveth not, abideth in death.

sinners do not Love, sin is unlovingness, diabolical abuse of fellow man even

Understand that we are "passed out of death into life" because we have received the life which Christ came to bestow upon man. We have passed from the condemnation which still resides upon every man that has not received Christ, therefore, they are...still dead. They have not passed out of death, but remain there still, even though they have physical life.

Sin encompasses more than just "unlovingness." There are many that can love the people in their lives and hate God.

Proverbs 15:12 A scoffer, loveth not, one who reproveth him, unto the wise, doth he not go.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love

And again, there is a consistency to the pattern of life which John addresses. All of us as believers can at times be unloving. It is as we grow in Christ that we learn to be more like Christ, and thus are better able to show the love of Christ.

This is why John addresses three groups: little children; young men; fathers. Three groups of maturity. The more mature, the less likliehood of sin in our lives.

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Originally Posted by strangertoo

because the pleasure of God is to turn the wicked around and He creates enough time in two universes only to do all His pleasure,


​

Strangertoo...turn off the Sci-Fi channel, okay, it is not a good place to work out our salvation.

Please give me the scriptural basis for this statement. I ask this quite often, but to no avail.

for the umpteenth time then :-

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live

Repeating verses will not change their meaning. This might work for some concerning the speeches of political heros, but it does not work concerning God's word.

The verses supplied above do not support this statement:

because the pleasure of God is to turn the wicked around and He creates enough time in two universes only to do all His pleasure,

Now...which Sci-Fi show was it that taught about two universes?

it's strange that you refuse to prove your "assurances" from scripture yet ignore my proofs from scripture that you are mistaken repeatedly ...

Which scripture did you not understand? This is why this is drudgery: nonsense like what we see above is given, it is responded to with scripture with commentary as to why it denies the aforementioned nonsense, then it is either left out of the response or simply responded to with vagueries such as this.

Nevertheless, lest it be said I shy away from drudgery, lol, here is the statement you respond to:

You can continue to embrace this amalgam of beliefs but I can assure you...Satan is not God's "prodigal son." He will not be redeemed, but will be judged.

Many times this has been shown in scripture. Perhaps if the YLT is given, it might sink in:

Revelation 20:10

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.



This time let's concentrate on "and they."

Who is "they?" The Devil, the beast (Antichrist), and the false prophets. And they shall be tormented day and night...for ever and ever. One can deceive themselves into thinking that "to the ages of the ages" does not mean everlasting, but this can be seen in a number of places.

Let us also consider this:


Matthew 25:41

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;



Again we see an everlasting seperation in judgment with fire representing the judgment. This judgment was prepared for the Devil and his angels, or, Satan and his demons, but the context here is in regard to the judgment of men, not Satan and his demons. We see in Revelation 20 that men do indeed go into this judgment, and both times it is said to be unending.

Demons know the fate that awaits them:


Matthew 8:28-29

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


28 And he having come to the other side, to the region of the Gergesenes, there met him two demoniacs, coming forth out of the tombs, very fierce, so that no one was able to pass over by that way,

29 and lo, they cried out, saying, `What -- to us and to thee, Jesus, Son of God? didst thou come hither, before the time, to afflict us?'

you seem to have come here to assert that these things you learned from sinners are true,

Very good...I think your catchiing on, lol.

but refuse to be reproved by scripture that proves they are false ...

Well, I leave that in the hands of others to judge, and ultimately...in the hands of God.

so I have to inform you that in discussion you too are subject to having to PROVE what you assert and you consistently refuse ...

I am quite aware of that, that is why I go through the trouble of responding point by point. It is very tedious to some, but, I will not be guilty of what you charge me with here.

Once again, bearing false witness.

whereas you could LEARN much from your many mistakes if you mind simply opened to the Truth of God instead of clinging to these falsehoods of sinners who do not know, cannot know God or Jesus ...

I actually do learn from my many mistakes. It is through mistakes that I learn, and the hard lessons are the best ones.

And I will, again, leave it up to others to judge my posting.

now Jesus sates that all creation will accept him as king and that means accepting his 'rod of iron' Law of Love in his kingdom in the new earth...

Once again, you mistake a Millennial application for the Eternal State. I did a very long and detailed response to this error already, and I am disappointed it did not help.

thus all creation is saved, and Satan is indeed a created being... so you are simply asserting Jesus is mistaken, but he is not :-

Before asserting a thus, lol, it might be a good idea to review the basis for it.

Satan will go into everlasting punishment with his demons, and those that reject Christ. Horse feathers doth not a parrot make.


Continued...

 

[strangertoo]

still not a shred of evidence ... and you cannot learn from your mistakes because you are in denial... do not be concerned though , it will pass , few find the way now [Matt 7:14] and you will see how few when you put down your study bible, stop sinning, and let God and Jesus show you their Truth [spirit baptism - John 16:13] ...so I wish you well, but you are wasting your time here because your mind is not open to anything but what you learned from sinners as with almost all folks, and do not fear it must be so -Rev 13:3-4 - God however has all in hand despite your believing He cannot do all His pleasure...

Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Revelation 5:13 And, every created thing which was in heaven, and upon the earth, and under the earth, and upon the sea, and, all the things in them, heard I, saying—Unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb, be the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the dominion, unto the ages of ages!

Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Revelation 5: This event takes place before the Tribulation unfolds. There is no way to insert an eternal application apart from the fact that the Realm of God is eternal.

Philippians 2: this speaks of the fact that all will one day acknowledge Christ as Lord. Not that all will be saved. There is just too much teaching contrary to such a view as to make it in any way credible.

God has no option not to Love all creation because He is God...

Well, one can try to make scripture and God fit their mold, but it will not change the scripture:


Acts 10:42

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


42 and he commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify fully that it is he who hath been ordained by God judge of living and dead --



Again we see the familiar distinction betwen the living and the dead.






John 3:36

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)


36he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'

and God's pleasure is to turn all the wicked and He can and will do all His pleasure , so again God says Satan too will be saved in the end of time

Where do we see this? Simply...we don't. We see Satan being cast into the Lake of Fire...forever. Notice above that the life of the believer is "age-during" in your favorite translation,

See it in the Rotherham:

1902 Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (EBR)

John 3


3:36 He that believeth on the Son, hath life age-abiding: whereas, he that yieldeth not unto the Son, shall not see life,—but, the anger of God, awaiteth him.


Neither, in my opinion only, are translated as well as...


John 3:36

King James Version (KJV)


36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


It is easier for one to understand the intent of the original. Less confusing. And if the KJV is less confusing, that does not say much for these translations.


John 3:36

New International Version 1984 (NIV1984)


36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life,(A) but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”[a]



What is missed that needs to be noticed of these is that they do not have life and they already have, not the love of God abiding on them, but His wrath.

God is not willing that any should perish but He will not twist the arm of the rebellious heart.

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

still not a shred of evidence ... and you cannot learn from your mistakes because you are in denial... do not be concerned though , it will pass , few find the way now [Matt 7:14] and you will see how few when you put down your study bible, stop sinning, and let God and Jesus show you their Truth [spirit baptism - John 16:13] ...so I wish you well, but you are wasting your time here because your mind is not open to anything but what you learned from sinners as with almost all folks, and do not fear it must be so -Rev 13:3-4 - God however has all in hand despite your believing He cannot do all His pleasure...

Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

Well, the evidence can only be seen if one actually reads it, and even then, understanding is not guaranteed.

As far as wasting my time, that is for the Lord to decide. While you may not profit from the scripture provided it is my hope that others will better know how to respond to the incessant rambling that is found in a great many posts.

I do believe it will be of benefit to someone, somewhere along the line.

 

[P1LGR1M]

so a suggestion, do not PRESUME you are right BEFORE hearing and considering the reply

The assumption is that it matters to me that I am right.

The goal here is to glorify God, not myself.

There will be times when I will be wrong, but it is up to my antaginist to show me where my error lies, and sometimes, I am helped by this.

No, actually, scripture consistently teaches that there is judgment coming for unbelievers, not that all will be saved. Christian Universalism is a satanic ploy to lull the spiritually dead and the spiritual amnesiac away from truth, that they might be effective witnesses for Christ.

Sounds great, there is just no way to reconcile this view with scripture.

that is not anywhere near evidence from scripture , so where is your evidence ...

It has been given over and over. Scripture can be taken in it's most basic, literal form. It is not necessary to be a rocket scientist to understand what God's will is for our lives.

In regards to the OP, I would suggest that there is a reason why most of the world's population believes there is a Hell: because they have not tried to reject the simple speaking of the Holy Spirit to their hearts.

Most understand the Doctrine of Hell when they read of it. It is not until they seek out commentators such as the one that created the article on Like 16 that they find assurance and justification for what they want to believe, rather than that which the Lord has impressed upon their heart.

This can be denied, but then, once one begins denying the word of God it is like lying...it gets easier and easier to do.

please do not quote your mistranslation all over again, read the Rotherham Emphasized Bible and Young's literal translation

I have given the YLT for most of this reponse, with one Rotherham and one KJV reference.

Does that help?

and at least see that very serious scholars DOUBT it , REFUSE it , it is not a valid basis of belief

I see: a "serious scholar" is one that agrees with us, is that it?

I tend to trust the "scholarship" of those used of God to actually pen the scripture over those that did not. And the writers of the New Testament are in agreement that there is a judgment coming for the wicked, Satan, and his angels. And that this punishment is not only warranted, but it is unending.

Wrong. On a couple of points. First, only those that are saved are baptized with the Spirit of God.

that is mistaken... after baptism of the spirit Love has to be perfected in baptism of fire before one even can be translated to spirit ['saved']

Wrong again: love is perfected by working hard at it, by yielding to the Holy Spirit, and by denying ourselves, putting the needs of others before our own.

Thus ends response #1.

God bless.

 

[he-man]

Many times this has been shown in scripture. Perhaps if the YLT is given, it might sink in:Revelation 20:10 (YLT)

10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.This time let's concentrate on "and they." Who is "they?"

Perhaps if the YLT is given, it might sink in: What does YLT say?
2Th 1:9 who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
What happened to them? God out of heaven, devoured them.

Who are they?
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. [This is the second death.]
[FONT=Courier New, monospace]We have first to consider the usage of the New Testament.[/FONT]


[FONT=Courier New, monospace]The words " deliver us from " (ρυσαι απ&#959 may refer to deliverance either (a) from a personal enemy, or (b) from an impending calamity or a moral evil.[/FONT]

1. [FONT=Courier New, monospace]In Romans xv. 31, and 2 Thess. iii. 2, the Apostle refers to deliverance from unbelieving Jews,• a very different thing from praying to be delivered from Satan.[/FONT]
2. [FONT=Courier New, monospace]1 Thess. i. 10: "Jesus, which delivereth (A. V. delivered) us from the wrath to come." The amendment is necessary, as St. Paul speaks of a continuous action on the part of our Lord. 2 Tim. iv. 18: ''The Lord will (A. V. shall)deliver me from every evil work."[/FONT]

[FONT=Courier New, monospace]These passages certainly add force to the assumption that in the Lord's Prayer deliverance from evil, specially from moral evil, guilt and its punishment, is primarily intended.[/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, monospace]It seems to me, and I think to the generality of Christians, more in accordance with the position of those whom Christ has delivered from the power of Satan, to pray to be delivered from moral evil, the sin that besets us continually, and from its penalty, than from “the evil one," the devil who will flee from those who resist him. James iv. 7. [/FONT]
[FONT=Courier New, monospace](The Speaker's Commentary by F. C. COOK)[/FONT]

2Th 1:9 who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,