Romney or Obama?

[JoeyArnold]

the universal church is not a denomination

 

[Desk trauma]

the universal church is not a denomination

Then what is it?

 

[Dave Ellis]

If the Bible intended to make people feel worthless, Ellis, why would Christ die on the cross to save them?

This sort of nonsense should be shouted down everywhere it is heard or read. It is disgusting.

Do I really have to dig through bible passages and Christian Literature to pull out the multitudes of verses that describe how we are all wretched sinners that are not worthy of God?

If we were made worthy, then why did Jesus have to die?

Oh yeah, and bringing up that point about human sacrifice you made a few posts ago....

 

[Shane Roach]

Is this addressed at me, or at another poster? If this is addressed at me, again, I am not a socialist or communist..... I believe strongly in a free market, limited government, capitalistic society.

Communism has failed in every single place it's been implemented. It's a flawed ideology that simply does not work in practice.

Please stop trying to straw-man my position.

There is no such thing as "free market capitalism". "Limited Government" capitalism leaves huge corporations as de-facto governments.

It is essentially the same thing as socialism, communism, and fascism.

I've been watching this bastard child of the modern "left" and "right" coming together for some time now. It's nothing new. It's a rollback to approximately 1890.

 

[JoeyArnold]

the universal church are the people who are going to live with Christ forever

 

[Shane Roach]

Do I really have to dig through bible passages and Christian Literature .......

No, because I can answer each and every one of them.

What you really ought to do is find yourself another hobby besides hanging out on a Christian site demeaning people about a religion you clearly have no interest in understanding.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Them let us SPEAK IN THOSE TERMS, and not in the terms that demonize anyone who feels we can do a better job than just open season on abortion at all stages of pregnancy.

Ellis is sitting here berating America for having a discussion about something he states unequivocally should already be settled, HIS way, because anything else is stupid. Why are you lecturing ME about extreme language?

I'm not berating America, I'm discussing political issues. Especially the things that need fixing.

You see, in the civilized world, you can criticize and discuss something while still showing respect. In fact, that's one of the major things Freedom depends on, and one of the founding principles of the U.S. That's what election campaigns are all about after all.

So again, rather than launching ad hominem attacks and straw-men, try addressing the actual issues.

 

[Desk trauma]

the universal church are the people who are going to live with Christ forever

Now if you could just get the tens of thousands of Christian sects to agree on who those people are...

 

[Dave Ellis]

where do you want me to start? Lets start with this. What I mean when I say that America is a Christian nation is this. That Christianity had a profound influence on the founding fathers. that influence does not make America a "Christian" nation but there is a theological starting point for "intent". and the best way to read and learn about these men who formed the laws and constitution is to go to the original documents. Now, the people who deny the existence of God will deny that this country was formed under the influence of a creator and his laws. That being said, one who doesn't believe in God should allow themselves to be open to others knowledge about the subject without judgement.

You didn't answer my question.

Again, I am not arguing some of the founding fathers were Christian. Some of them clearly were, and some were devout. Other founding fathers on the other hand were not Christian, or openly critical of Christianity.

You however made a claim that the constitution was based on biblical principles, despite the fact that any reference to God was repeatedly voted out of the constitution every time it was brought up (and there were multiple times it was attempted to get God into the document).

So, I asked you to specifically show where in the constitution there is a direct and clear biblical influence.... You haven't yet done so.

 

[Dave Ellis]

"What parts of the constitution can you point to and link a definitive biblical influence? I look forward to your answer."

The first amendment. The free exercise clause. You know, the clause so called "secularists" always ignore.

The first amendment is clearly not based on biblical principles, as it is clear violation of the first commandment.

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" has nothing to do with free exercise of religion.... in fact they're in direct contradiction of each other.

But nice try.

 

[Dave Ellis]

All men are created equal, unless if you are still a little fetus?

The bible does not say all men are created equal... in fact the bible speaks quite clearly of God's chosen people (and by extension God's not-chosen people), advocates slavery, and considers women as property (granted, they aren't "men", but I would imagine the bible should still be more enlightened in that area if it were truly moral and divine).

 

[Shane Roach]

I'm not berating America, I'm discussing political issues. Especially the things that need fixing.

......

So again, rather than launching ad hominem attacks and straw-men, try addressing the actual issues.

And trying to use the bible to promote the idea that humans have "worth and dignity" is absurd.

You're being ridiculous.

You need to either back off of your offensive anti-Christian rhetoric or else stop pretending to be reasonable, one of the two. No fair minded person confuses you for someone concerned about the ad hominem attacks and straw-men.

 

[Dave Ellis]

We need to have legal abortions because they will still happen if criminalized but at a senseless cost to citizens. There is no valid analogy in the same way men can't comprehend carrying a baby to term and delivering naturally. We can't fathom. Ellis is stunningly and repeatedly completely and significantly incredibly wrong on many issues, because he is operating from a bankrupt viewpoint that has been tested and found to be liked by some (most of whom were high on drugs) for 30 years, but which will be forgotten by history except to laugh and point. It does not change the fact that he has pointed accurately at the poor arguments of those who could simply embrace truth. . . rather than the rhetoric which has entrenched both sides.

Really... what points am I stunningly wrong on, and what viewpoints are "bankrupt"?

p.s. I've never done a drug, nor even smoked a cigarette in my life...

 

[Dave Ellis]

I will try.

It would be nice of the atheists on this board would tamp down each other's rhetoric like I and other Christians try to do when someone loses it though. And just in general, I continue to believe it would be more appropriate if atheists who come here specifically to insult Christians, like Ellis, were encouraged to find other outlets for venting their spleen than this "Christian" website.

I've had plenty of civil discussions on here Shane... however every time I encounter you I am almost immediately attacked with strawmans, ad hominems, mis-characterizations and dishonesty.

I am quite willing to have a civil debate without name calling or ridicule, however this is a two way street. If you toss crap my way, I'm going to call you out on it.

The ball is in your court.

 

[Shane Roach]

The bible does not say all men are created equal... in fact the bible speaks quite clearly of God's chosen people (and by extension God's not-chosen people), advocates slavery, and considers women as property (granted, they aren't "men", but I would imagine the bible should still be more enlightened in that area if it were truly moral and divine).

These are all false and have been debunked a thousand thousand times.

Slavery as practiced in the Bible in Old testament times is not the slavery anyone today is familiar with.

Ex 21:16

16 And he that stealeth a man , and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
KJV

Deut 23:15-16

15 Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee:

16 He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him.
KJV

Women being property in any sense men could not also be property is based on I can't imagine what, but if a woman IS property, she is given special benefits.

Ex 21:7-11

7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.

9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.

10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.

11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.
KJV

Moreover, I believe in my heart of hearts that you have been confronted with these truths, these unmitigated facts, repeatedly throughout your life, and you are currently still spouting the untruths you are spouting fully knowing that they are not in fact just.

 

[Dave Ellis]

church should not have too much power over state

Wait a second... the State should not have power of the Church (which I agree with), however the Church should not have "too much" power over the State?

That's where the problem lays.... the church should not have any power over the state either. That's where the wall of separation comes in... And that wall serves it's purpose well.

 

[Shane Roach]

I've had plenty of civil discussions on here Shane...

Like this one?

And trying to use the bible to promote the idea that humans have "worth and dignity" is absurd. The message contained in the bible is that we're all worthless sinners ......

The ball's been in your court all your life, Ellis. Sitting there. Waiting for you to stop acting like it's not there.

 

[Dave Ellis]

because morality should govern the state, but the church shouldn't exactly govern the state

I agree with you fully that morality should govern the state.

 

[Shane Roach]

Wait a second... the State should not have power of the Church (which I agree with), however the Church should not have "too much" power over the State?

That's where the problem lays.... the church should not have any power over the state either. That's where the wall of separation comes in... And that wall serves it's purpose well.

I already sumarized all this pages ago.

You do not have the right to ban all legal and moral concepts that are contained in a religion based on your false ideas of separation of church and state. I don't care what Canada does. Here in the states, where we have more freedom of religion still than any other nation, the point is that people have the right to hold religious beliefs and the state cannot impede that. If people develop values based on those beliefs, they cannot enforce them, because the state IS separate from the church.

HOWEVER, if most people agree that a religious VALUE, as opposed to the religion itself, is of enough importance to be made law, we have that right here.

If you don't have that right in Canada, then I guess you should go ahead and legalize murder, because that one is in the Bible as well.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I merely extrapolate from your ridiculous statement that you think the entire continent of Europe took on Christianity because everyone throughout western history up until your politics came into favor in the mid 19th century was so stupid that they had no clue that Christianity had no basis for treating human beings with worth and dignity.

Anyone reading even a fraction of your postings knows who and what you are from a political and historical perspective. That you try to hide it just proves how bankrupt your politics and ethical framework are.

By extrapolate, you must mean by putting words in my mouth.

I've never made that argument, and don't even agree with it at all.... This is another example of a strawman.

Rather than making up arguments I disagree with and then try to pin them on me, try actually addressing what I've said.