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Romney or Obama?

Discussion in 'Ethics & Morality' started by JoeyArnold, Oct 4, 2012.

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  1. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Well-Known Member

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    Sinning means you made a mistake. Sinners means you are the mistake.
     
  2. Dave Ellis

    Dave Ellis Contributor

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    Oh, I see, so the Bible is in favour of the "good" kind of slavery. My bad.

    You mean the type where you mark your slaves by driving a spike through their ear, and are allowed to severely beat them, as long as they don't die within a day or two?

    Yeah, sounds charming... A real great feel good story.

    Oh sweet! You have to be someone's property, but you get benefits! How do I sign up?

    Please, give me a break!

    If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

    When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)



    Oh yeah, and these rules only apply to "God's Chosen People".... if you happened to live in a city that was conquered by the Isrealites, if you weren't killed outright, men were bound to slavery forever and the women were usually taken as sex slaves.

    In fact, there's a bunch of places in the Old Testament where this sort of thing is done at God's command.... Should I pull those up for you too?

    What great morality, it sounds like the slaves were living in Disneyland!

    In all seriousness, slavery in all forms at all times is evil and immoral. The people who lived 2000+ years ago were not yet that enlightened, however we are now. Trying to cling to their standards and pass it off as acceptable or moral is reprehensible and disgusting.
     
  3. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

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    Sinner means you are sinning. If I am a mistake, God made it. That is not Biblical, therefore I find your assertion to be improper.

    "God made man upright, but he has sought out many inventions."

    When we sin, we do what God did NOT create us to do. We MAKE a mistake. We are not, in and of ourselves, a mistake.

    And I'll show you an even clearer, if less kind illustration.

    We are living vessels, prepared with the knowledge of just what was going to become of each of us from before the foundation of the earth. Not one of us is a mistake. But there is one mistake from which there is no recovering - rejecting the Spirit of God when He tells you Christ is the way to salvation.
     
  4. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
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    Stealing a man is a death penalty offense. You are taking the verses I gave you out of context, as if your political views lead men any less surely to slavery, and often to injury or death.

    If slavery in the O.T. is what you say, then why if a slave runs away are they to just let him go, as the verse I cited makes clear?

    You are being both dishonest and insulting at the same time.
     
  5. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
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    Oh, and Dave Ellis leaves out the verse that says Masters should treat their slaves like brothers.......

    Yeah, that was the norm back in Rome.
     
  6. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Well-Known Member

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    Sinner does not mean you are sinning.
     
  7. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

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    A slave in the OT sense is closest to an employee under current economic systems. The normal state of a Jew was supposed to be a free man with his own independent inheritance in the land that he could work on. This is not something to be debated about. It is an established fact of the O.T. teaching.
     
  8. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Well-Known Member

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    and the word sinner does not actually mean because you were sinning
     
  9. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
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    It means you have sinned. "All have SINNED and come short of the glory of God."

    It does not mean you were born worthless. I defy you to find a verse that says that. "Born in sin"? Yes. "Born a worthless sinner"? No.
     
  10. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

    +1,229
    Christian
    To summarize all these slavery verses up, it is illegal to steal people and sell them into slavery. People come into slavery due to financial reasons or, in some circumstances, foreigners come to be slaves after a war. Foreigners do not have to be freed. Jewish servants must be freed every Sabbath year. That is, at LEAST every 7 years.

    On the Jubilee, everyone's debts are forgiven in full and everyone returns to their inheritance. Like a game of monopoly, you reset everything and start from scratch. This prevents undue accumulation of financial and economic power in the hands of the few.

    This is, by far, the most progressive economy ever suggested in history.

    Anyone beaten with a lasting injury must be freed.

    Anyone who runs away must be allowed to run away.

    So why would anyone take a beating and still remain a slave? If the slave is set free for an injury, his DEBT is forgiven. If he survives his beating without lasting injury, it is NOT. But under any circumstance, if the Master is THAT cruel, you can run away and the law is that no one is allowed to send you back to your master.
     
  11. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Well-Known Member

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    sinner does not mean sinning... but sinning does mean sinner
     
  12. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

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    At this point, you're sort of talking to yourself. :)

    I said what I have to say on this topic.
     
  13. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Well-Known Member

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    Sinner does not mean sinning. But sinning does mean sinner. Because sinner means a person who needs Christ. Because we are sinners, we sin. Because sinning does not turn you into a sinner. We sin because we are already in fact sinners.
     
  14. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

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    That's "born in sin". I already said that.

    I'm glad you explained yourself though. I just don't get where you're coming up with "worthless". God obviously does not share that view, to judge by all his mercy, grace, and forgiveness.

    Perhaps "unworthy"? God nevertheless takes the time to MAKE us worthy, implying that He finds some worth in us, even if it is just to display His grace.
     
  15. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Well-Known Member

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    Worthless means that our worth is in Christ.
     
  16. Shane Roach

    Shane Roach Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    Well, if we are in Christ we most certainly are worthy. I am not seeing a good excuse to keep tossing the word "worthless" around.

    I understand what you are saying. I think you might need to be keeping this in mind though.

    Not that you are constantly unwise, but in this case I think you are misusing the term "worthless" as it specifically pertains to what was being discussed.

    Ellis is saying that Christianity teaches all of mankind is worthless, and therefore it promotes morally bankrupt behavior. You basically look as if you are chiming in to agree with him. THAT'S not wise.
     
  17. trientje

    trientje Newbie

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    We will start here:
    an important aspect of our system of government is that it is based on the rule of law. this concept is a direct descendant of Hebrew law and the ten commandments and along with the concept of unalienable rights from God these concepts helped ensure a way of life that respects the dignity of all.
     
  18. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Well-Known Member

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    Worthless means unworthy.
     
  19. trientje

    trientje Newbie

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    And another: the men who wrote the constitution believed the christian idea that man is basically sinful. Our founding fathers understood this. As a result the founders built into the constitution an elaborate system of checks and balances. this is evident in the horizontal plane of executive, legislative and judicial branches and the vertical plane of federalism. (states power vs federal powers}
     
  20. pgp_protector

    pgp_protector Noted strange person

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    No, it doesn't

    un·wor·thy/ˌənˈwərT͟Hē/
    Adjective:
    Not deserving effort, attention, or respect: "he was unworthy of trust and unfit to hold office".
    (of a person's action or behavior) Not acceptable, esp. from someone with a good reputation or social position

    worth·less/ˈwərTHlis/
    Adjective:
    Having no real value or use.
    (of a person) Having no good qualities; deserving contempt.
     
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