Romney or Obama?

[Desk trauma]

Those are commandments for the Jews themselves. But as for outsiders, the Old Testament had this to say.

Exodus 12 KJV

I am not quite getting how passover ties in with religious liberty. Were you talking about a specific verse in that chapter?

Also, your characterization of putting to death a false prophet as "those who stray from the true faith" is wildly inaccurate. The verse there is talking about a man taking a position of authority and then lying, saying he has the voice of God.

It is more like a death penalty for being an exceedingly corrupt politician than it is for abandoning the true faith.

Ahem, lets start at verse six:

If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 11 Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again.

How is that in any way about political corruption?

None of this is really on topic. The New Testament origin of the concept of separation of church and state comes from Jesus. "Render unto Caesar...." Maybe you've heard of that verse?

Yeah, guess god just then forgot to inform any of his followers for over a thousand years that church and state should be separated.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Church and state should not be separated.

 

[Desk trauma]

Church and state should not be separated.

Which church would you like to see united with the state?

 

[ziggy29]

Church and state should not be separated.

Unless you think you can get a Constitutional amendment passed which would repeal the religious freedom clause in the First Amendment, I'd suggest trying to expatriate to a theocracy.

 

[JoeyArnold]

State should not have power over churches, so to speak.

 

[JoeyArnold]

Separation of church and state is suppose to enable religious freedom.

 

[ziggy29]

State should not have power over churches, so to speak.

Should churches have power over the state?

If so, are they going to start paying taxes? And which church gets the power? (Let me guess -- yours?)

 

[JoeyArnold]

church should not have too much power over state

 

[Dave Ellis]

There are great heaping goo gobs of things we disagree on, but this statement . . .. right on!

For me it is because I have had my wrists bloodied in cleaning up a coat hanger abortion. Yeah I used gloves, yeah abortion was legal in that state, but that girl (not a woman, 20 something, IQ in the 60's) had a meth addiction that superseded the need some well meaning social service group meant to fill when they gave her cash to abort a pregnancy destined to create an unfortunate life (mom huffing, doing meth, and consuming VAST quantities of alcohol while pregnant, besides nicotine add *"mental disability of" mom for 50% of the genetic mix and homeless guys at the first of the month as her "johns" one of the dozens being the sperm donor). Clearly I have seen a bad thing & it would have been worse had some vile fiend not pulled that fetus out with a dirty coat hanger which landed "mom" in a hospital stay paid for by tax payers for a touch over a week. Clearly it could have cost less, had the funds not been diverted for Meth, and a qualified physician in sterile conditions removed the fetus. Pro-lifers, that fetus was going to be killed. It does NOT matter when life begins, does not matter 9/10ths of your arguing points, fetuses are going to die. The question is, are we going to make it illegal so that every abortion which WILL happen (anyway) lawful currently or otherwise looks like what I cleaned up . .. . or are we going to save tax payers near $20,000 per abortion (which will happen regardless) by allowing it to be done "safely" by qualified professionals under sterile conditions?

Yikes, what a horrendous story.... hopefully that woman got the help she obviously needed.

But "coathanger" abortions are bad enough for someone like her, what people don't realize is that they'll become the norm (again) for regular people too should abortion be made illegal again.

It's a nasty situation for all involved. I hope to see abortions limited as well, but for reasons of people being sexually responsible, may that mean using contraceptives or whatnot.

 

[JoeyArnold]

the pilgrims was trying to escape the church of england whom had control over church and state

 

[JustMeSee]

Church and state should not be separated.

Which church should have power in the state?

 

[Shane Roach]

Ahem, lets start at verse six:

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods”

It is not about their own choice to worship. In that case, they simply choose not to be Jewish. But when people in that time, under that circumstance, begin to publicly agitate for OTHERS to follow other gods (most of which in that region promoted murder, gross sexual immorality, child sacrifice, and the like), then they are to be put to death.

It is, essentially, treason, under that form of government.


And no, the New Testament solution to this is merely about giving people time and space, not about reversing a wrong edict on the part of the Lord.

It would be different if there were a load of religions out there all teaching more or less the same values, but to this day the instant people separate themselves from Christianity, they seem to begin to be infatuated with all sorts of licentiousness, greed, and violence, which you can see in the constant, raging insistence that we legalize abortion in almost every conceivable case amongst atheists.

 

[Shane Roach]

I am not quite getting how passover ties in with religious liberty. Were you talking about a specific verse in that chapter?

My mistake entirely.

Lev 24:19-22

19'If a man causes disfigurement of his neighbor, as he has done, so shall it be done to him — 20 fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he has caused disfigurement of a man, so shall it be done to him. 21 And whoever kills an animal shall restore it; but whoever kills a man shall be put to death. 22 You shall have the same law for the stranger and for one from your own country; for I am the LORD your God.'"
NKJV

 

[JoeyArnold]

the universal church

 

[Dave Ellis]

Kindly read YOUR history, something written post 1850 please, before acting as if the entire European continent was dragged kicking and screaming into Christianity.

When did I ever state the European continent was dragged kicking and screaming into Christianity? I stated no such thing, so stop trying to falsely state I did.

And the history I stated is factually correct, what you stated is not. I called you out on it, so I find it puzzling that rather than admitting you were mistaken, you try to deflect without debunking my points, nor defending your own. It's quite dishonest.

People left your human sacrificing, sexually illicit, barbaric ways behind centuries ago because they, at that time at least, preferred to live slightly more peaceful lives.

Oh, for sure... Europe in the middle ages under the domination of the church didn't have any illicit killing, sexual immorality, or barbarism.

I hate to tell you, the christian church today still is in favour of (or condones) human sacrifice, illicit sexuality and barbarism.

I however am not in favour of human sacrifice or barbarism, nor immoral sex acts like rape, incest or whatnot. However, in regards to sexual matters, I also believe what two consenting adults want to do in the bedroom is none of my business... and it's also none of yours.

The idea that freedom of religion is synonymous with "letting the church run rampant" is what you ought to be laughing about.

When did I say it was? I said Freedom of Religion means people can believe or worship whatever they want to. I also stated those same people do not have the right to push their beliefs on others by way of government or legislation.

It is a testimony to the downfall of most of the rest of the western world that freedom of religion in the supposedly "conservative" view of a Canadian communist is to limit religion so that we can force people to accept baby killing as a moral absolute.

Ok... so the first post you label me a socialist.... I correct you and state that I am a member of the conservative party (which is our equivalent to your Republicans, minus the crazy religious rhetoric), and praise Ronald Reagan.... and you respond by then calling me a communist.

Your entire point is senseless, and is borderline paranoid delusional. You aren't even addressing my viewpoints in any way at all, so it's not worth responding to apart from what I've already said.

Please bring up a point relative to my views, or what I said, and I will address it.

 

[Shane Roach]

Church and state should not be separated.

State should not have power over churches, so to speak.

Separation of church and state is suppose to enable religious freedom.

church should not have too much power over state

the pilgrims was trying to escape the church of england whom had control over church and state

In other words, the separation of church and state is not synonymous with the separation of morality and law.

For example, the fact that the Bible has laws concerning sexual behavior should not be taken as an excuse to ban all laws regarding sexual behavior.

Fascinating to me that someone who is obviously not the world's best writer understands this concept, whereas all the people mocking him do not.

 

[JoeyArnold]

because morality should govern the state, but the church shouldn't exactly govern the state

 

[Dave Ellis]

I can well imagine how a Christian hating socialist who hangs around Christian websites spewing anti-Christian hate could have missed the ten bazzillion verses in the Bible about love. But there's a brief sampling from both old and new testament. The problem with trying to demonize the idea of universal sin is that it is unavoidably, demonstrably true. Look at the world around you.

The way you know humanity is evil is that people routinely demand evil be treated as authoritative, such as mocking the very idea that we could have substantive discussion about abortion that did not include an absolutist, abortion on demand policy that echoes the ancient pagan, as constantly promoted by godless communists since the mid 19th century.

Origins of the Family

Communists have made war on the concept of the family since their inception despite multitudinous evidence in history, sociology, anthropology, and just plain old fashioned common sense that dictates otherwise. Curious readers can start the inquest on reading "Anatomy of Love" by Helen Fisher, and use her bibliography there as a springboard to learn more about what we ACTUALLY know about human behavior, and what seems most likely to be the case concerning sex, family, children, and so forth.

One thing is certain. No decent hearted person holds up the wholesale slaughter of children as a moral high light unless they are deeply in the clutches of ancient, totally repudiated concepts of how the state can help deal with family issues.

It is worthy of noting just how far back the idea of rampant sexual license and baby killing as a mode of controlling unwanted pregnancy goes back into history. It is nothing new. It is nothing "scientific".

Is this addressed at me, or at another poster? If this is addressed at me, again, I am not a socialist or communist..... I believe strongly in a free market, limited government, capitalistic society.

Communism has failed in every single place it's been implemented. It's a flawed ideology that simply does not work in practice.

Please stop trying to straw-man my position.

 

[Desk trauma]

the universal church

I am unfamiliar with that denomination, could you provide some information on it?

 

[Shane Roach]

When did I ever state the European continent was dragged kicking and screaming into Christianity? I stated no such thing, so stop trying to falsely state I did.

You didn't. You said this.

And trying to use the bible to promote the idea that humans have "worth and dignity" is absurd. The message contained in the bible is that we're all worthless sinners deserving of eternal damnation.

I merely extrapolate from your ridiculous statement that you think the entire continent of Europe took on Christianity because everyone throughout western history up until your politics came into favor in the mid 19th century was so stupid that they had no clue that Christianity had no basis for treating human beings with worth and dignity.

Anyone reading even a fraction of your postings knows who and what you are from a political and historical perspective. That you try to hide it just proves how bankrupt your politics and ethical framework are.