1182-1204

[RKO]

What does this august body think of the inter-relationship, if there is one, between the seige of Constantinople in 1204 and the Massacre of the Latins in 1182?

Was the massacre one of the causes of the Seige? Or were they unrelated? I mean I know they were both demonstrative of the lack of love between East and West, but I have recently read that it may be that the reason for 1204 WAS 1182. Seems a bit myopic to me, but what do I know?

 

[ArmyMatt]

it doesn't seem that one directly caused the other to me (just did a quick search, nothing in depth), aside from a worsening of feelings between the two.

 

[The Unorthodox Orthodox]

The massacre happened because the Latins had achieved too much power.
They had secured large-scale trading concessions from emperor Alexios Komnenos.
Subsequent extensions of these privileges and Byzantium's own naval impotence at the time resulted in a virtual maritime monopoly and stranglehold over the Empire by the Latins.
Thus, the Byzantines decided to get rid of them, by slaughtering all of them.
I am not proud for what my ancestors did back then.

The Latins besieged the City because, quite frankly, there was much to loot there and it was an easy target too
(The once unbeatable Komnenian army had been neglected by the incompetent Angeloi dynasty).
The crusaders themselves, after they entered the City,
said that they couldn't imagine that a city with so much gold could even exist.

So no, the massacre did not cause the siege.
But the tension between the two people, which had been aggravated by the massacre, definitely made it easier for the attackers to justify their actions and kill their fellow Christians.

 

[RKO]

The massacre happened because the Latins had achieved too much power.
They had secured large-scale trading concessions from emperor Alexios Komnenos.
Subsequent extensions of these privileges and Byzantium's own naval impotence at the time resulted in a virtual maritime monopoly and stranglehold over the Empire by the Latins. Thus, the Byzantines decided to get rid of them, by slaughtering all of them.
I am not proud for what my ancestors did back then.

The Latins besieged the City because, quite frankly, there was much to loot there and it was an easy target too
(The once unbeatable Komnenian army had been neglected by the incompetent Angeloi dynasty).
The crusaders themselves, after they entered the City,
said that they couldn't imagine that a city with so much gold could even exist.

So no, the massacre did not cause the siege.
But the tension between the two people, which had been aggravated by the massacre, definitely made it easier for the attackers to justify their actions and kill their fellow Christians.

Well said.

 

[Cappadocious]

What does this august body think of the inter-relationship, if there is one, between the seige of Constantinople in 1204 and the Massacre of the Latins in 1182?

Was the massacre one of the causes of the Seige? Or were they unrelated? I mean I know they were both demonstrative of the lack of love between East and West, but I have recently read that it may be that the reason for 1204 WAS 1182. Seems a bit myopic to me, but what do I know?

Both were so horribly mutilated by pseudo-historians that we may never know.

 

[isshinwhat]

What does this august body think of the inter-relationship, if there is one, between the seige of Constantinople in 1204 and the Massacre of the Latins in 1182?

Was the massacre one of the causes of the Seige? Or were they unrelated? I mean I know they were both demonstrative of the lack of love between East and West, but I have recently read that it may be that the reason for 1204 WAS 1182. Seems a bit myopic to me, but what do I know?

It was, in my opinion, one of the causes, as Enrico Dandolo was Venetian. He had lived through the troubles of the early 1170's and was blind likely due to a brawl that occurred in Constantinople. He also worked to restore ties between the two peoples in 1183 during the wake of the massacre. As Cappadocious said, the history of the time is very complex and has been twisted by all involved, so we will never know all the details. What a sad time for Christendom... Brothers should not make war with one another...

 

[rusmeister]

My opinion - whichI grant is not fact; I'm only running with what I see to be historical pobabilities, is that the "Latin Massacre" was conflated in the West, pretty much of necessity by and for Catholics. They really NEED justification for the sack of Consantinople.

That's not to be taken as an attack on or insult of Catholics, who I have a good deal of respect for; just what I see to be the historical probability.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Rus, why do you always seem to see everything as conflated, bloated, over-exaggerated, or just a lie? Be it women throughout history, massacres, anything? You seem to always view everything as something blown out of proportion. I wonder, if just for once we could take something at face value in history and not inject either irrelevence or bloated misinformation charges into it?

 

[buzuxi02]

Im not sure if there was much correlation between the two events. Obviously the 4th crusade wasnt called upon to capture Constantinople and im not aware of any secret war plans by the crusaders to capture Constantinople as payback for the massacre.

The Latin massacre as Unorth in post3 tells us was primarily over trade and economic conditions but the main culprit that instigated and incited the actual massacre was Andronikus Komnenos, a figure of immense byzantine intrigue. His backroom political deals, his backstabbing, his ability to charm women of royalty leading to his rise of power is the stuff of an epic drama.
When the Emperor Manuel died and his latin wife Maria of Antoch (yes she was latin in reality) came to rule, the byzantine population resented her as she favored the latin marchants who already controlled trade.
Leading up to the massacre, fighting had already erupted on the streets over actions of the emperess, both over her favor of latin ways, and then further disgusting the greeks by taking on a lover after she was tonsured a nun upon her husbands death. It is during this tumult that the wiley Andronikus entered the city with basically a mercenary army and re-directing the rowdy crowds to take their anger out on the Latin quarters.

Ive also heard but havent been able to confirm that the crusader army was supposed to be a paid army. As you can guess after things didnt go according as planned, and they never got paid, the booty became Constantinople.