Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[P1LGR1M]

Don't warn them of a false made up fate that the bible doesn't say is going to happen to them.

Death is going to happen, there is no way around that but the Rapture.

That this doctrine of scripture is rejected does not mean that it is made up.

How much scriptural basis for this belief is offered in this entire post? One?

How many scriptures are there that indicate the eternality of punishment? Quite a few. Scripture that is quite plain in language, though perhaps the original language needs to be referred to for some. And the man that wants to know the truth will put the time into study of this doctrine to know what is truth.

That just drives them away from God and results in their destruction.

Not at all. In fact, soul sleep and annihilation are great doctrines...for those that are on the brink of suicide.

Ever thought of that?

Instead of encouraging men towards life, which is the rpimary goal of evangelical efforts, these doctrines soothe the conscience of the sinner and far worse, encourage men that death will be a welcome end.

Those that have rejected the punishment of the damned have rejected the very One that taught it...God Himself.

It is the Holy Spirit that convicts a man of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and I can tell you, it is quite certain that that conviction has led to more than a few men learning to fear God and the consequnces of rejecting Him.

What good is that?

[/quote]

See above.

Perhaps the best analogy of all to illustrate that the wages of sin is death is a man who has received a death sentence for killing his family from an earthly judge.

Of course I caricaturize the false beliefs of the hell-fire-torture preachers.
That's the best way to illustrate how ridiculous their beliefs are.

So you deny scripture includes mention of Hell-Fire as well? Sorry, but it written:

Revelation 14:9-11

King James Version (KJV)


9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.



What do you do with this?

Torment is:


929. basanismos bas-an-is-mos' from 928; torture:--torment.


How is it the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever, yet, they cease to exist?

To get an idea of how we might view the word torment, we can look at other biblical usage of this word. I would post a link, but few will, because their minds are already set, actually take the time. This is one reason why these posts can get lengthy at times. But my hope is that there might be even just one that will take the times, because it is important to hiim/her to actually know what the Bible teaches about this:


Revelation 9:5

King James Version (KJV)


5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.



Does a picture of a scorpion standing over a man laughing and jeering as it stings him come to mind? Probablly not, that would be ludicrous, right?

But when the judgment of wicked men is imparted, the annihilationist (as well as atheists) immediately draws up an image of God standing over those He judges.

Just not an objective assessment, but rather caricaturization is employed, much like the efforts of the Sadducees, to ridicule an opposing view.

And by the way, in case one is not familiar with the fact, the Pharisees held the opposing view.


Revelation 18:7

King James Version (KJV)


7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.



Revelation 18:10

King James Version (KJV)


10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.



Revelation 18:15

King James Version (KJV)


15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,



Babylon is in view, specifically (I believe personally) Babylon, representing the world system.

A corresponding Old Testament passage is seen here:


Isaiah 47

King James Version (KJV)


1 Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: there is no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.


7 And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: so that thou didst not lay these things to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it.

8 Therefore hear now this, thou that art given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:


(note-CFs will be in red)

Look at those she trusted in for truth:


13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from these things that shall come upon thee.





Okay, to sum it up, the caricature created by annihilationists and atheists is about as valid an argument as the example of the scorpion. The torment has to do with those that receive it.

Going back to the analogy of the earthly judge, we know better than to think the judge accpompanies the sentenced to their cells, and waits with them until they are executed, do we?

Of course not.

But the worst part of the argument against eternal punishment, the one thing that should for the serious student of scripture put this issue to rest is...scripture itself. The word of Christ Himself.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

If I believed the wages of sin was to be sat on by a giant German Shepherd, the best way for you to illustrate how ridiculous this belief is, would be for you to paint a vivid picture of someone crushed under the smelly hind quarters of a giant dog.

What would be better would be to actually present a biblical basis, since this is after all a biblical concept.

How is being tossed into a lake of fire to be burned alive forever substantially any different from having gasoline poured all over you and lit on fire and be burned alive forever? I suggest that the results are the same.

And that is all this is...a man's suggestion.

I can understand some have a difficult time with this doctrine, but let's be honest: can we be comfortable with anyone being separated from God...at all?

Why is God not called cruel because He doesn't save everyone?

Can you answer that?

But God's Holy Inspired Word states quite clearly that the lake of fire represents the second death.

No cessation in the first, no cessation in the second.

Why would the Lord resurrect the wicked just to wink them out? I might suggest Matthew 10:28 as a "proof-text," want to give that one a shot?

Allow me to quote: "The lake of fire is the second death" unquote.

Let me add to that with a question: which one is the "first?"

Ahem. That's quite clear.

It is very clear, just as death is taught in scripture...not to be the end of existance. How this is missed, accompanied by missing the difference between life and death, is beyond me. But what is clear to me is that these are two issues which every annihilationist (and atheist "expositor") I have talked to are sadly lacking in balancing the word of God.

Death, not being shoved up into a dog's hind end. Or whatever.

Is this supposed to be humorous?

God bless.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

There is no Justice in torture. Your argument falls flat in that regard. Civilized Humans do not torture for "justice". Are men greater than the Father?

I was not arguing that God tortures anyone, that would be the Annihilationist and atheist claim against the traditional view of Hell. In fact we do not know much about Hell other than it seems most unpleasant, beyond that is much speculation. But leaving someone alone to stew in their hate could be described as a form of torture. But somehow that does not paint as a dramatic a picture as some would like to paint of the traditional view.

There is Just in people getting what they deserve, both in positive measure (Heaven) and negative (Hell). And Justice would demand varying levels of reconcilation in both of those places.

To conclude Hell must be utterly painless for all going there is like saying everyone gets the same thing in Heaven. That is not what scripture indicates.

Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man [fn]according to what he has done.

 

[Soulgazer]

I was not arguing that God tortures anyone, that would be the Annihilationist and atheist claim against the traditional view of Hell. In fact we do not know much about Hell other than it seems most unpleasant, beyond that is much speculation. But leaving someone alone to stew in their hate could be described as a form of torture. But somehow that does not paint as a dramatic a picture as some would like to paint of the traditional view.

There is Just in people getting what they deserve, both in positive measure (Heaven) and negative (Hell). And Justice would demand varying levels of reconcilation in both of those places.

To conclude Hell must be utterly painless for all going there is like saying everyone gets the same thing in Heaven. That is not what scripture indicates.

Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man [fn]according to what he has done.

There is justice in either receiving life, or not receiving life. I don't know what anyones ultimate fate will be. I cannot imagine a paradise where an axe murderer is running around trying to bash in heads--- so either he is not there, or God is powerful enough to change him. Can't say. But even an axe murderer is human, and has people that love him.

I think I could cope with knowing a friend didn't make it, and is just no more. If he was being tormented to no good end....I would have to volunteer to take his place, for I could not love a god that would do that.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

If God, the Heaven Host including Saints and Angels can "cope" with the suffering going on right now, then I trust the Happiest they experience right now can also be given to those in Heaven who know someone that "did not make it".

How that is possible? I do not know. But God can see to it that they can be happy up there now with the way things happen down here, then am certain the same would apply later. My thoughts are this is partially addressed with saying the damned are "no more", as in out of sight and out of mind.

Also something to be said that even though the traditional view has this state of the damned last eternally, it does not follow that the damned are unchanged, even to the extent they would not longer in anyway resemble anybody we knew in this life.

Maybe it is possible if we found ourselves in Heaven, our thoughts of those "missing" are tempered with knowing the person we knew no longer really exists, they have been changed AND perhaps our memories of them will only be of the good that was in them (as there is in all of us). That along with probably a much broader "view" of the big picture (why everything happened the way it did and how it is for His Glory) should also help.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hello Soulgazer,

"Scripture" tells what the men who wrote it believed.

Many believe that. Sad for them, really, as they will never know the joy of God Himself bringing light to His word. Apart from witnessing, study of the word is when I feel closest to the Lord.

You should try it sometime.

I recognize that some see the bible as the "word of God", yet not one has ever been able to prove it without going back to the bible itself.

Just not true.

Millions upon millions have experienced God through His word. They see the fulfillment of that which is stated in their lives, not least of all the new creature that is produced from the New Birth,

Archaeology has on a number of times verified scripture as historically accurate.

I hate to say it but this post is errily similar to those of atheists, nearly the same arguments presented to deny the veracity of scripture.

But hey, that is okay with me, I takes 'em as I gets 'em.

All religious text from any religion make the same claim and provide the same evidence, so it is ultimately a man's faith in that tradition. Again, it merely makes a statement of what the men who wrote it believed, and reflects the belief of the men who chose those particular scripture over others.

And what we will find with other "holy books" is that in some way or another they change the God of scripture, His will, and His redemptive plan.

Only The Holy Scriptures which we call the Bible has a consistent theme of the same God, despite the great timeframe it spans.

Now, let's focus on your own hypocritical critique for a bit: what do you base your beliefs on?

Is it not that which is a product of men? Who taught you?

Yourself?

You throw statements out there as if they are fact yet they are precisely what you charge those used of God to pen scripture: it is product of men. And if you read what you just said in the above quote, you will see that you engage in the same thing.

The difference between what Christians place their faith in and what you place your faith in is simply that our faith is consistent, it is not that which we have created to place our faith in.

I am familiar with several belief systems, their evolution and the various offshoots.

You participated in these systems as they evolved? You were there at their beginning?

No...you take man's word for it that what you have been told and what you have read, whether it was in personal participation or not, is true.

The afterlife was introduced into Judaism after the Hasmonean dynasty and was still being debated by the leaders of the Temple religion at the time of Christ.

You were there?

So let me get this straight: scripture is a conspiracy work, yet the work of historians is...completely trustworthy.

Amazing.

As far as whether their was an afterlife mentioned in scripture we see in Jesus rebuke of the Sadducees in Mark 12 that God is the God of the living, not the God of the dead.

As far as there being debate, there was. And scripture shows the Lord stating there is life after death, and there is going to be a resurrection of the dead.

Any reference from the old testament is simply being read in.

How would you know?

You have read the Old Testament, and made a conclusion based upon your study?

Would you like to present the scripture where mention of the afterlife is "read in," because I would greatly like to discuss such passages with you.

AND---it is read in, a lot.

Yes, mostly by believers.

This reflects the desire for Hell to be a real place,

Again, another familiar tactic in order to suppress truth...just make statements like this.

Find one believer that has a "desire for Hell to be a real place."

This is like saying soldiers have a desire that Afghanistan exists.

That Hell is real cannot be denied, unless one denies the God of scripture and His word.

And if one does that, they worship a god of their own creation, and it is not coincidence that these gods do not follow a biblical view.

otherwise, it would not be read into writings by authors who had no such concept.

It is true that understanding of the afterlife and resurrection is limited in the Old Testament. However, scripture is progressive, and knowledge is increased in the New Testament. It is said the Old Testament is the New concealed, the New is the Old revealed. We can see that is true.

Your analogy of a criminal condemned, I don't agree with.

But it is much like that, agreed or not. The primary difference is we do not view the earthly criminal as judged according to his nature. He was not born a murderer, as the sinner is born with a sin nature, which leads to judgment.

Any analogy that tries to represent any biblical concept is going to fall short. But, we can get the picture.

Your caricature presents God and those that adhere to what scripture specifically teaches as gloating, glad sinners are punished. I have never met anyone that represents this. But, this is the kind of tactic expected from those that do not have a basis for their own beliefs other than secular humanistic sources.

The criminal is condemned because men say, "we don't know what else to do, so we are sending you to God in hopes that He does".

Not sure where you are from, but around here criminals are condemned because they break the law, and the law is carried out.

But again we see a weak attempt to discredit one's opposition. Not in Politics, are you?

In Judaism, capital punishment is considered a mercy, as it offers the criminal a chance for atonement.

Oh, yes, I have read about those Jews that clamoured to be put to death.

Where do you get this stuff? lol

The question is really not about the places of the dead, but the attitude of the living.

Now this I agree with wholeheartedly.

And the only ones that are truly ALIVE are those that are alive in Christ.

All else are natural men, separated still from the Living God, the source of LIFE.

John 6:53

King James Version (KJV)


53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.



You see, one does not even have to die physically to be dead. SCripture views the natural man as both dead and condemned...he will die again.

This is the second death. And there will be no cessation of existance in either.

To justify eternal torment via "scripture" is to say that the Father is the most immoral of creatures, which I must reject out of hand.

If one denies His word, they deny Him that came to give life to the dead.

I will accept your blessing, with the full knowledge that He has, and wish you the same.

He who? Where do you get your information about your god? Who told you what he was like, what his nature is, what his character is, what his will is, and what his plan is?

Where?

I will explore this further--- assuming you make it to paradise, will you enjoy it?

Depends on which "Paradise" you have in mind: if you mean the Paradise the Lord spoke of in Luke 23:43, I will never see that place, at least it is no longer the abode of the just.

If you mean the Paradise Paul was caught up to, or the Eternal State...

Absolutely. If I die, I will be with the Lord. One day, I will be glorified. One day, sin will no longer be something to contend with, either in this flesh or in this world.

I expect to be held accountable for my words, and that my works in this life will be judged, but...absolutely, I will enjoy the presence of God.

God bless.

 

[Timothew]

What would be better would be to actually present a biblical basis, since this is after all a biblical concept.

Okay, and remember that you asked for the biblical basis. This is quite long since there is so much biblical proof for my position, so I am asking the moderators to not edit it.
Here is the scriptural proof backing up what I am saying.

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happent to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
5 Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
6 For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
12 Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
2 for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.

 

[Senecharnix]

Hello Soulgazer,


Many believe that. Sad for them, really, as they will never know the joy of God Himself bringing light to His word. Apart from witnessing, study of the word is when I feel closest to the Lord.

You should try it sometime.

Just not true.

Millions upon millions have experienced God through His word. They see the fulfillment of that which is stated in their lives, not least of all the new creature that is produced from the New Birth,

Archaeology has on a number of times verified scripture as historically accurate.

I hate to say it but this post is errily similar to those of atheists, nearly the same arguments presented to deny the veracity of scripture.

But hey, that is okay with me, I takes 'em as I gets 'em.

And what we will find with other "holy books" is that in some way or another they change the God of scripture, His will, and His redemptive plan.

Only The Holy Scriptures which we call the Bible has a consistent theme of the same God, despite the great timeframe it spans.

Now, let's focus on your own hypocritical critique for a bit: what do you base your beliefs on?

Is it not that which is a product of men? Who taught you?

Yourself?

You throw statements out there as if they are fact yet they are precisely what you charge those used of God to pen scripture: it is product of men. And if you read what you just said in the above quote, you will see that you engage in the same thing.

The difference between what Christians place their faith in and what you place your faith in is simply that our faith is consistent, it is not that which we have created to place our faith in.

You participated in these systems as they evolved? You were there at their beginning?

No...you take man's word for it that what you have been told and what you have read, whether it was in personal participation or not, is true.

You were there?

So let me get this straight: scripture is a conspiracy work, yet the work of historians is...completely trustworthy.

Amazing.

As far as whether their was an afterlife mentioned in scripture we see in Jesus rebuke of the Sadducees in Mark 12 that God is the God of the living, not the God of the dead.

As far as there being debate, there was. And scripture shows the Lord stating there is life after death, and there is going to be a resurrection of the dead.

How would you know?

You have read the Old Testament, and made a conclusion based upon your study?

Would you like to present the scripture where mention of the afterlife is "read in," because I would greatly like to discuss such passages with you.

Yes, mostly by believers.

Again, another familiar tactic in order to suppress truth...just make statements like this.

Find one believer that has a "desire for Hell to be a real place."

This is like saying soldiers have a desire that Afghanistan exists.

That Hell is real cannot be denied, unless one denies the God of scripture and His word.

And if one does that, they worship a god of their own creation, and it is not coincidence that these gods do not follow a biblical view.

It is true that understanding of the afterlife and resurrection is limited in the Old Testament. However, scripture is progressive, and knowledge is increased in the New Testament. It is said the Old Testament is the New concealed, the New is the Old revealed. We can see that is true.

But it is much like that, agreed or not. The primary difference is we do not view the earthly criminal as judged according to his nature. He was not born a murderer, as the sinner is born with a sin nature, which leads to judgment.

Any analogy that tries to represent any biblical concept is going to fall short. But, we can get the picture.

Your caricature presents God and those that adhere to what scripture specifically teaches as gloating, glad sinners are punished. I have never met anyone that represents this. But, this is the kind of tactic expected from those that do not have a basis for their own beliefs other than secular humanistic sources.

Not sure where you are from, but around here criminals are condemned because they break the law, and the law is carried out.

But again we see a weak attempt to discredit one's opposition. Not in Politics, are you?

Oh, yes, I have read about those Jews that clamoured to be put to death.

Where do you get this stuff? lol

Now this I agree with wholeheartedly.

And the only ones that are truly ALIVE are those that are alive in Christ.

All else are natural men, separated still from the Living God, the source of LIFE.

John 6:53

King James Version (KJV)


53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

You see, one does not even have to die physically to be dead. SCripture views the natural man as both dead and condemned...he will die again.

This is the second death. And there will be no cessation of existance in either.

If one denies His word, they deny Him that came to give life to the dead.

He who? Where do you get your information about your god? Who told you what he was like, what his nature is, what his character is, what his will is, and what his plan is?

Where?

Depends on which "Paradise" you have in mind: if you mean the Paradise the Lord spoke of in Luke 23:43, I will never see that place, at least it is no longer the abode of the just.

If you mean the Paradise Paul was caught up to, or the Eternal State...

Absolutely. If I die, I will be with the Lord. One day, I will be glorified. One day, sin will no longer be something to contend with, either in this flesh or in this world.

I expect to be held accountable for my words, and that my works in this life will be judged, but...absolutely, I will enjoy the presence of God.

God bless.

Except concerning Hell, Soulgazer is far closer to the truth than you are, Pilgrim. It would do you well to conduct some extensive research, regarding the early Church and the history of the Bible, using a wide variety of sources. Of course, you would also need to learn to love truth and follow it wherever it might lead..Archeology has also proven that some of what is in the Bible is untrue....

 

[P1LGR1M]

Well, so much for getting off of here, lol.


Okay, good...this is more like it. I would ask you if these passages come from personal study or if they are taken from a book?


I will try to be brief, but I am like that composer that when someone played a song but left off the last note...could not sleep. So have mercy, lol, no more for tonight.

Okay, and remember that you asked for the biblical basis. This is quite long since there is so much biblical proof for my position, so I am asking the moderators to not edit it.

I would not be to worried about it: I will be quoting the entirety of your post (though we will see if it tonight, lol, I have been to the mountains and back, after all) in my response, so both would have to be edited.

Here is the scriptural proof backing up what I am saying.


Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

But what you are missing, my friend, is that it does not say cessation of existance.

Consider:

Destruction is...


684. apoleia ap-o'-li-a from a presumed derivative of 622; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal):--damnable(-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste.


Now lets look at how this word is used to speak of destruction:


Matthew 26:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?



Used in a context where the destruction is not involving cessation of existance.

Acts 8:20

King James Version (KJV)


20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.



Likewise.

Acts 25:16

King James Version (KJV)


16 To whom I answered, It is not the manner of the Romans to deliver any man to die, before that he which is accused have the accusers face to face, and have licence to answer for himself concerning the crime laid against him.



Speaks of the destruction of death, and again, scripture is clear man does not cease to exist after physical death. The point: destruction is seen here with no implication of cessation of existance.

What we are going to find, even in the annihilationist's favorite verse, is that the destruction spoken of does not imply cessation of existance. This is actually eisegetically inserted into the text by the individual's desire to see it there.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

Matthew 10:28

King James Version (KJV)


28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



Why does the Lord not say "But rather fear Him Who is able to kill both soul and body in Hell?"

Because in view is both physical death which is inflicted by man and spiritual destruction, not death, of both the physical and spiritual aspect of man, which will take place when the dead are resurrected.

The point here is that man is able to inflict death to the point of the physical, and we are not to fear that. But God has power over both the physical and spiritual aspect of man.

Another aspect to take into consideration is that the term "soul" is used interchangaebly to refer to the immaterial aspect of man and the man in totality. Now, in this verse do we see that the intent is that God has complete power over man in totality? In the Gospels we see a dispute arise between Pharisees and Saduccees, the former believed in things supernatural, the latter did not. I mention this because I want to point out that in scripture we have a clear division of revelation, knowledge that is progressive in nature. In other words, the knowledge of both Pharisees and Sadducees was limited compared to that which was given through New Testament revelation.

(note, due to time I have borrowed this first part from an earlier post I did)

Now, let's look at the words:


Destroy is...


622. apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.


And here are a few verses to show the word does not mean cessation of life:

Matthew 8:25

King James Version (KJV)


25 And his disciples came to him, and awoke him, saying, Lord, save us: we perish.


Do the disciples mean they are about to cease from existance?


Matthew 9:17

King James Version (KJV)


17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.



Do the bottles wink out of existance? Or do they simply experience utter ruin?

And probably my favorite example:
Matthew 10:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Did the House of Israel, which the disciples were being sent out to minister to, cease to exist in their destruction? If they did, why then was the Lord sending the disciples to minister among them? lol

Okay, I thinkyou might get the picture at this point: annihilation is inserted based upon a poor grasp of the original use of these words. The wicked will be judged, but, there is no implication of annihilation but the opposite is confirmed by that which is explicit in scripture.

And I will leave you with one more in regards to this word:


Matthew 15:24

King James Version (KJV)


24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.



Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Except concerning Hell, Soulgazer is far closer to the truth than you are, Pilgrim. It would do you well to conduct some extensive research, regarding the early Church and the history of the Bible, using a wide variety of sources. Of course, you would also need to learn to love truth and follow it wherever it might lead..Archeology has also proven that some of what is in the Bible is untrue....

So you would, like all those that reject scripture and it's teaching, point others to the work of men.

Thanks for proving my point.

Now, if you have something that might contribute to this conversation, welcome. But if you want to discuss biblical concepts, you will be forced to actually bring scripture into the discussion.

As far as the sciences that have "proven" scripture untrue, well, again I would ask if you have done the research, examined the evidence, and made these conclusions based upon your own efforts?

If not, then you will have to concede the fact that your religious basis is far less credible than mine, as it is simply you parroting what other men have said, and far more gullible than those that trust in scripture which actually changes lives.

God bless.

 

[Soulgazer]

Hello Soulgazer,

I'm not going to respond to the rest. You apparently got upset when your faith was challenged. That was not my intent, and I apologize for making you angry.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down.

The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

You answer this yourself, in saying...

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

You see, Timothew, this refers to the end of the Tribulation, not the Great White Throne.

We have a thousand years before these poor souls are resurrected and thrown in the Lake of Fire.

The same principle applies here as in the last response in regards to being burned up.

So in other words, you destroy your own basis simply by showing that there will be those that are destroyed yet do not cease to exist.

And, what is worse, you are guilty of what you charge others of. You take the use of being burned up here, and because you thought it convenient to your defense, you create a picture of people "burning up," when in reality this is terminology describing judgment. And while it is true that some in the Tribulation will I am sure die in fiery deaths, this is nearly as bad as those that think that everyone in the Tribulation will have their heads cut off because the word "beheaded" is used.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.

Where's Paul Harvey when you need him? lol

Now, let's look at the rest of the story:


Luke 13

King James Version (KJV)


1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.



The obvious truth is that in view is physical death. We can make an application to eternal separation, sure, but...they will perissh like those mentioned here.


4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Again their perishing shall be likewise with those the tower in Siloam fell upon.

In view, and this is my view, Timothew, is Israel: they are the tree spoken of in the following parable:

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.

7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?

8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:

9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.


We have a parable speaking of Israel's sin, and like the tares, in danger of being cut down.


Continued...

 

[Senecharnix]

So you would, like all those that reject scripture and it's teaching, point others to the work of men.

Thanks for proving my point.

Now, if you have something that might contribute to this conversation, welcome. But if you want to discuss biblical concepts, you will be forced to actually bring scripture into the discussion.

As far as the sciences that have "proven" scripture untrue, well, again I would ask if you have done the research, examined the evidence, and made these conclusions based upon your own efforts?

If not, then you will have to concede the fact that your religious basis is far less credible than mine, as it is simply you parroting what other men have said, and far more gullible than those that trust in scripture which actually changes lives.

God bless.

I no longer waste time, effort, and energy arguing with the willfully blind and deaf....

 

[Soulgazer]

I no longer waste time, effort, and energy arguing with the willfully blind and deaf....

He has the right to believe anything he wishes to believe. It's a free country(though that is changing).


A persons identity is often tied up in their belief systems. Challenge someone like that, and they will take it personally. They can't help it---so if they are that way, just nod and smile, lest you cause them to anger.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I'm not going to respond to the rest. You apparently got upset when your faith was challenged. That was not my intent, and I apologize for making you angry.

Upset? lol

Could you show me where my faith was challenged?

My friend, do you think I would get upset with something that has no real foundation?

Come on, I will try to throw in a few more LOLs and maybe a smilie or two if it will convince you that...I want to talk to you. You are the reason for me doing what I do. It is because I believe that discussion can at the very least get people to examine the basis of their faith, and yours, sorry, is built upon nothing but the words of men. I don't say that to sound arrogant or mean-spirited, it is just what I see. You condemn scripture and paint it as a conspiracy effort of Catholics, then switch up to Jewish contamination by other nations, and I simply ask you you, "Were you there?"

And the obvious answer is no.

But please, don't think me angry, it just isn't the case. If you would like to try your faith...go on an atheist forum, lol. There is no rules for conduct on many of them, and it can get pretty brutal. That is just one of my training grounds. And I hate to say it, but the defense you offer is, as I said, eerily similar to theirs.

So the challenge goes out to you: on what do you base your faith? Where is it that you get that which you believe about your god?

Okay, trying to finish another post, and doubt I will, but it is great interest to me as that person actually believes scripture to be God's word, at laest that is how it looks.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I no longer waste time, effort, and energy arguing with the willfully blind and deaf....

Great excuse.

See ya.

 

[Soulgazer]

Upset? lol

Could you show me where my faith was challenged?

My friend, do you think I would get upset with something that has no real foundation?

Come on, I will try to throw in a few more LOLs and maybe a smilie or two if it will convince you that...I want to talk to you. You are the reason for me doing what I do. It is because I believe that discussion can at the very least get people to examine the basis of their faith, and yours, sorry, is built upon nothing but the words of men. I don't say that to sound arrogant or mean-spirited, it is just what I see. You condemn scripture and paint it as a conspiracy effort of Catholics, then switch up to Jewish contamination by other nations, and I simply ask you you, "Were you there?"

And the obvious answer is no.

But please, don't think me angry, it just isn't the case. If you would like to try your faith...go on an atheist forum, lol. There is no rules for conduct on many of them, and it can get pretty brutal. That is just one of my training grounds. And I hate to say it, but the defense you offer is, as I said, eerily similar to theirs.

So the challenge goes out to you: on what do you base your faith? Where is it that you get that which you believe about your god?

Okay, trying to finish another post, and doubt I will, but it is great interest to me as that person actually believes scripture to be God's word, at laest that is how it looks.

God bless.

Your whole argument is based on a single premise. Yes, I read the words of men. I don't try to fool myself that it is anything but. Apparently you have.

Make one or two points, if you can without the strawman arguments and I will respond. So far, all you have shown me is that you believe that the bible is "the word of God". Great. Glad you believe it. I don't. I will tell you why I don't. If the bible is "the word of God" than I am a better being than God. I don't think that is even remotely possible---ergo, the bible is mistaken.

My teacher is the spirit of truth. Simple. "spirit"=force that motivates, "truth"=that which is. It is also a comfort....not having to defend a lie, I don't paint myself into corners.

You are the reason that I do what I do.

 

[P1LGR1M]

What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

You argue something that is part of your theological system, not mine: it is a construct designed to strengthen your position and has little relevance to the actual doctrine.


Luk 13:3I tell 3004 you 5213, Nay 3780: but 235, except 3362 ye repent 3340, ye shall 622 0 all 3956 likewise 5615 perish 622.


You can see this is the same word from our previous passage, if you would like to review that.

By the way, click on the 0, fairly interesting,and will explain why 622 is listed twice.


And just as we saw that Israel suffered destruction but it can be seen in the passage that Israel still exists, even so we know that those mentioned in Luke 13 did not cease to exist either.

And I should point out I failed to embolden 622 here:


Matthew 15:24

King James Version (KJV)


24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Did I mention that this shows clearly that they must still exist, as the Lord came specifically to them?

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).

This verse actually speaks of a fishing expedition, perhaps you meant Luke...

And we again have a Tribulational passage, not the Great White Throne. I told you earlier that distinguishing the context and the application is one of the areas where annihilationists get into trouble. You can't just take a passage and use it to create doctrine. This is like someone using this...


Luke 17:34

King James Version (KJV)


34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.



...as a Rapture passage.

and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

And just as the people in the Flood did not cease to exist...


1 Peter 3:18-20

King James Version (KJV)


18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.



...even so the people of Sodom did not cease to exist.

See how this does not strengthen your defense?


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Your whole argument is based on a single premise. Yes, I read the words of men. I don't try to fool myself that it is anything but. Apparently you have.

Make one or two points, if you can without the strawman arguments and I will respond. So far, all you have shown me is that you believe that the bible is "the word of God". Great. Glad you believe it. I don't. I will tell you why I don't. If the bible is "the word of God" than I am a better being than God. I don't think that is even remotely possible---ergo, the bible is mistaken.

My teacher is the spirit of truth. Simple. "spirit"=force that motivates, "truth"=that which is.

Sorry, SG, but your statement shows a complete lack of understanding of the God of the Bible.

And it hinges in large part around your belief that if God punishes those that do despite unto Him eternally, then He is a cruel monster. I am sure you have heard it before, but, it is true that God would not be a righteous God if He did not punish sin, particularly those that wilfully reject Him in full knowledge of the truth.

If just for a brief moment the caricature that you have used as a shield that keeps any objective thought process concerning this doctrine could be dropped, you might consider that it is not necessary to draw up the Hollywood image of Hell and realize that God is just, and that He will punish according to the knowledge one possesses. Understand that the Bible implies (I believe teaches, but I wil be conservative on this) there will be degrees of punishment. The Lake of Fire represents that time of judgment just as tares being burned up represents temporal judgment.

There will be those that will deserve great punishment (Hitler comes to mind), and there will be those deserving less.

But what I would most encourage you to do, seeing that you reject the Bible as actually the word of God, is to present the passages which you feel denies it's credibility.

It is now much later than I planned on being here, and I am having an enjoyable time responding to a post which centers on scripture, but, I will, when I get time, take a look at the basis for your rejection of scripture. Give me achance, okay?

And I sincerely appreciate your honesty in this post, thanks. Seldom in these types of discussions do I see that.

God bless.

 

[Senecharnix]

He has the right to believe anything he wishes to believe. It's a free country(though that is changing).


A persons identity is often tied up in their belief systems. Challenge someone like that, and they will take it personally. They can't help it---so if they are that way, just nod and smile, lest you cause them to anger.

I agree...Anyone has the right to believe whatever they wish. More than a few folks here are even entitled to believe their smirky, holier-than-thou attitude somehow pleases God. But that does not mean it actually pleases God...Far too many folks here delight in tossing the Bible in our faces and parroting scriptures as if they actually understand what God is all about. Frankly, I have become weary of scraping their fertilizer off my computer's screen. You know me. I have tried my best to treat others with respect. But too many folks here are proud of how ignorant and dismissive they are. They dare someone to trounce them....


I will not be posting here very often if at all from now on. For I have more profitable things to do than argue with people who entertain delusions and promote false teaching as if God actually inspires them to do so, then get offended whenever anyone points out their foolishness....

You are a good fellow, Soulgazer. I respect you, though I do not share all of your beliefs. But God called me to be a lion of the truth. Stephen's way is not my way. Even so, I have learned enough to know when a hunting ground has become desolate. In the past, the Son has chastised me for wasting time, energy, and effort arguing with the willfully blind and deaf. I shall honor his wishes and move on. You and Timewerks keep up the good fight and prepare yourselves for what is coming. I know you do not buy much stock in the apocalyptic department. But I have not been kidding even a little about what I have revealed. If you live another eighteen months, you will learn to appreciate that I know what I am talking about in such matters. I dread April of 2014. Yet I also appreciate why the troubles it will introduce must cast a pall over our world and begin the process of demolishing civilization as we know it. As I have said before, if God neglected to dismantle America and end the ridiculous ways and means that she has spread across our world like some missionary of darkness and evil, our world would become as dead as is Mars....

Until later,
May God keep shining His light on you,
JT