Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thanks.
I believe that God is both merciful and just. His justice is tempered with mercy. So he doesn't torture sinners alive in hell for all eternity, because his mercy lasts forever.

Seems only 1 bible version translates the greek word #1067 as "gehenna"

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YLT

Young) Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
because ye go round the sea and the dry to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen--ye make him a son of gehenna/geennhV <1067> twofold more than yourselves.
33 Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna/geennhV <1067>?"

1067. geena gheh'-en-nah of Hebrew origin (1516 and 2011);
valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7434988/
OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire


.

 

[Timothew]

Seems only 1 bible version translates the greek word #1067 as "gehenna"

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for YLT

Young) Matthew 23:15 "Woe to you Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
because ye go round the sea and the dry to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen--ye make him a son of gehenna/geennhV <1067> twofold more than yourselves.
33 Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna/geennhV <1067>?"

1067. geena gheh'-en-nah of Hebrew origin (1516 and 2011);
valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7434988/
OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire


.

Yes, because YLT makes a special effort to be a literal translation.

Gehenna is the Valley of Gehenna, aka the Valley of Hinnom or the Valley of the sons of Hinnom. There is no more reason to translate Gehenna as Hell as there would be to translate Jerusalem, Bethel or Jericho as Hell. These are all place names. Every place name gets translated as the name of the place, EXCEPT for Gehenna. Why? Because if it is commonly known as an actual place, the support for the false doctrine of eternal conscious torture in hell disappears.

The non-christian greeks believed that everyone went to Hades (Hell) when they died. Good people got rewarded in Hell and bad people were tormented in Hell. This false idea did not come from the Bible.

Sheol is just a place to be dead. No reward or punishment. Hades is the greek word, borrowed from mythology to represent Sheol in greek. In the bible it doesn't represent eternal reward or torment either. (Except in one parable, and that is not eternal torment anyway, and doesnt' represent final punishment) Gehenna is the valley outside Jerusalem. The lake of fire is the second death.

 

[Soulgazer]

Now this is just an observation, so please no one be insulted. After slogging through so many of these threads, I am left wondering why so many people so desperately wish for Hell to be something more than a parable?

 

[Timothew]

I think its human nature. The idea is "Not only am I mad at what I think you did to me, God is mad too, and He is going to fix you good".

I'm also discussing this on CARM.org, and I can't tell you how many times those guys threaten me with eternal torture in hell, because I don't believe in eternal torture.

 

[Soulgazer]

I think its human nature. The idea is "Not only am I mad at what I think you did to me, God is mad too, and He is going to fix you good".

I'm also discussing this on CARM.org, and I can't tell you how many times those guys threaten me with eternal torture in hell, because I don't believe in eternal torture.

LOL. I think you are right; I was hoping someone would explain to me why, if I poured gasoline all over them and lit it, that it wouldn't be an evil act. After all, it's not even eternal.

 

[Timothew]

LOL. I think you are right; I was hoping someone would explain to me why, if I poured gasoline all over them and lit it, that it wouldn't be an evil act. After all, it's not even eternal.

I've asked something like that before.
Here is their answer.

If you pour gasoline all over someone and light them on fire it is evil.
If God pours gasoline all over someone and lights them on fire, it is good.

I'm sensing a double standard.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Now this is just an observation, so please no one be insulted. After slogging through so many of these threads, I am left wondering why so many people so desperately wish for Hell to be something more than a parable?

Actually it has nothing to do with "desperately wishing for Hell to be more than a parable."

You seem to confuse a parable with clear instruction, and that is what is brought out of the scriptures. It is a matter of not failing to give accurate doctrine, rather than the wishes men have which causee them not to "slog" through...scripture.

It is laziness for the most part, if you ask me. And it is precisely for the intent of looking at what scripture actually says, rather than simply taking another man's word for it. Which, unfortunately, many do.

While you may disagree with my point of view, the fact remains that the clear statements of scripture cannot be disputed...even if on rejects scripture as from God and authoritative, the measure of rule for all belief.

It is also true that in discussion, and debate (and I hope you will forgive me when I get facetious, lol), is that there is usually such a focus on the extreme end of the issue that it is not balanced with, say in this case, the fact that it is not a desperate wish to either eisegete Hell into scripture (and what this means) nor is it the desire of most believers to see anyone remain separated from God (dead in trespasses and sins)...much less that they receive this separation on an eternal basis.

It is for this reason we warn men, that they might escape Hell. Not because we delight in the fate awaiting all those that reject God, no matter the age.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I've asked something like that before.
Here is their answer.

If you pour gasoline all over someone and light them on fire it is evil.
If God pours gasoline all over someone and lights them on fire, it is good.

I'm sensing a double standard.

You use a poor analogy. Better would be a man who has received a life sentence for killing his family from an earthly judge. The analogy you use is simply presented to caricaturize the beliefs (and sentiments) of those that hold to the position that Heel speaks of eternal separation from God.

Okay, headed to apples.

God bless.

 

[Timothew]

Actually it has nothing to do with "desperately wishing for Hell to be more than a parable."

You seem to confuse a parable with clear instruction, and that is what is brought out of the scriptures. It is a matter of not failing to give accurate doctrine, rather than the wishes men have which causee them not to "slog" through...scripture.

It is laziness for the most part, if you ask me. And it is precisely for the intent of looking at what scripture actually says, rather than simply taking another man's word for it. Which, unfortunately, many do.

While you may disagree with my point of view, the fact remains that the clear statements of scripture cannot be disputed...even if on rejects scripture as from God and authoritative, the measure of rule for all belief.

It is also true that in discussion, and debate (and I hope you will forgive me when I get facetious, lol), is that there is usually such a focus on the extreme end of the issue that it is not balanced with, say in this case, the fact that it is not a desperate wish to either eisegete Hell into scripture (and what this means) nor is it the desire of most believers to see anyone remain separated from God (dead in trespasses and sins)...much less that they receive this separation on an eternal basis.

It is for this reason we warn men, that they might escape Hell. Not because we delight in the fate awaiting all those that reject God, no matter the age.

God bless.

The plain words of the bible disagree with the view that the result of sin is eternal torture (or whatever) in hell.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. You should warn sinners, but you should warn them of the true fate, death. Don't warn them of a false made up fate that the bible doesn't say is going to happen to them. That just drives them away from God and results in their destruction. What good is that?

 

[Timothew]

You use a poor analogy. Better would be a man who has received a life sentence for killing his family from an earthly judge. The analogy you use is simply presented to caricaturize the beliefs (and sentiments) of those that hold to the position that Heel speaks of eternal separation from God.

Okay, headed to apples.

God bless.

Perhaps the best analogy of all to illustrate that the wages of sin is death is a man who has received a death sentence for killing his family from an earthly judge.

Of course I caricaturize the false beliefs of the hell-fire-torture preachers.
That's the best way to illustrate how ridiculous their beliefs are.

If I believed the wages of sin was to be sat on by a giant German Shepherd, the best way for you to illustrate how ridiculous this belief is, would be for you to paint a vivid picture of someone crushed under the smelly hind quarters of a giant dog.

How is being tossed into a lake of fire to be burned alive forever substantially any different from having gasoline poured all over you and lit on fire and be burned alive forever? I suggest that the results are the same.

But God's Holy Inspired Word states quite clearly that the lake of fire represents the second death. Allow me to quote: "The lake of fire is the second death" unquote. Ahem. That's quite clear. Death, not being shoved up into a dog's hind end. Or whatever.

 

[Soulgazer]

Actually it has nothing to do with "desperately wishing for Hell to be more than a parable."

You seem to confuse a parable with clear instruction, and that is what is brought out of the scriptures. It is a matter of not failing to give accurate doctrine, rather than the wishes men have which causee them not to "slog" through...scripture.

It is laziness for the most part, if you ask me. And it is precisely for the intent of looking at what scripture actually says, rather than simply taking another man's word for it. Which, unfortunately, many do.

"Scripture" tells what the men who wrote it believed. I recognize that some see the bible as the "word of God", yet not one has ever been able to prove it without going back to the bible itself. All religious text from any religion make the same claim and provide the same evidence, so it is ultimately a man's faith in that tradition.

While you may disagree with my point of view, the fact remains that the clear statements of scripture cannot be disputed...even if on rejects scripture as from God and authoritative, the measure of rule for all belief.

Again, it merely makes a statement of what the men who wrote it believed, and reflects the belief of the men who chose those particular scripture over others.

It is also true that in discussion, and debate (and I hope you will forgive me when I get facetious, lol), is that there is usually such a focus on the extreme end of the issue that it is not balanced with, say in this case, the fact that it is not a desperate wish to either eisegete Hell into scripture (and what this means) nor is it the desire of most believers to see anyone remain separated from God (dead in trespasses and sins)...much less that they receive this separation on an eternal basis.

I am familiar with several belief systems, their evolution and the various offshoots. The afterlife was introduced into Judaism after the Hasmonean dynasty and was still being debated by the leaders of the Temple religion at the time of Christ. Any reference from the old testament is simply being read in. AND---it is read in, a lot. This reflects the desire for Hell to be a real place, otherwise, it would not be read into writings by authors who had no such concept.

It is for this reason we warn men, that they might escape Hell. Not because we delight in the fate awaiting all those that reject God, no matter the age.

God bless.

Your analogy of a criminal condemned, I don't agree with. The criminal is condemned because men say, "we don't know what else to do, so we are sending you to God in hopes that He does".
In Judaism, capital punishment is considered a mercy, as it offers the criminal a chance for atonement.




The question is really not about the places of the dead, but the attitude of the living. To justify eternal torment via "scripture" is to say that the Father is the most immoral of creatures, which I must reject out of hand. I will accept your blessing, with the full knowledge that He has, and wish you the same.

I will explore this further--- assuming you make it to paradise, will you enjoy it?

 

[Hillsage]

I think its human nature. The idea is "Not only am I mad at what I think you did to me, God is mad too, and He is going to fix you good".

Ditto on the 'human' emphasis. The 'divine nature' emphasis of Jesus Christ in scripture is 'love sinners but hate sin' a belief that is simply not in those minds less sanctified IMO.

I'm also discussing this on CARM.org, and I can't tell you how many times those guys threaten me with eternal torture in hell, because I don't believe in eternal torture.

I've always found it a bit difficult to 'feel' the love of God from these 'brethren'. I believe that the "likeness" of God that I'm pursuing "after" is simply one of a omniscient God with a better plan. And even if I'm wrong in my doctrine, and they're correct about eternal hell, is God going to send someone to hell for not believing in it? If perfect doctrine is the requirement then everyone is lost, Peter and Paul didn't even agree. Are they thinking more highly of themselves/doctrine than they ought?

 

[Soulgazer]

Ditto on the 'human' emphasis. The 'divine nature' emphasis of Jesus Christ in scripture is 'love sinners but hate sin' a belief that is simply not in those minds less sanctified IMO. I've always found it a bit difficult to 'feel' the love of God from these 'brethren'. I believe that the "likeness" of God that I'm pursuing "after" is simply one of a omniscient God with a better plan. And even if I'm wrong in my doctrine, and they're correct about eternal hell, is God going to send someone to hell for not believing in it? If perfect doctrine is the requirement then everyone is lost, Peter and Paul didn't even agree. Are they thinking more highly of themselves/doctrine than they ought?

That is pretty much my attitude. I believe that perfect worship is emulation---However it is difficult to emulate a being who is double minded. That would leave one to condemn those that do not believe as one wished, which in the overall scheme of things, I would find rather confusing, and really, points to the overall confusion between members of the different faiths who continuously proclaim others to be wrong without consideration of their own belief. I fully accept that I may be wrong, yet I find the alternative repugnant, as I try to endeavor to perfect myself in love as it is said Jesus commanded.

Assuming that there is some immutable cosmic law, which the Father has no control over preventing him from rehabilitating the condemned, surely some dispensation other than one that reminds one of a small boy tearing the wings off flies the better to burn them with a glass can be found to accommodate them.

 

[Super Kal]

Yes, because YLT makes a special effort to be a literal translation.

Gehenna is the Valley of Gehenna, aka the Valley of Hinnom or the Valley of the sons of Hinnom. There is no more reason to translate Gehenna as Hell as there would be to translate Jerusalem, Bethel or Jericho as Hell. These are all place names. Every place name gets translated as the name of the place, EXCEPT for Gehenna. Why? Because if it is commonly known as an actual place, the support for the false doctrine of eternal conscious torture in hell disappears.

The non-christian greeks believed that everyone went to Hades (Hell) when they died. Good people got rewarded in Hell and bad people were tormented in Hell. This false idea did not come from the Bible.

Sheol is just a place to be dead. No reward or punishment. Hades is the greek word, borrowed from mythology to represent Sheol in greek. In the bible it doesn't represent eternal reward or torment either. (Except in one parable, and that is not eternal torment anyway, and doesnt' represent final punishment) Gehenna is the valley outside Jerusalem. The lake of fire is the second death.

also, the word "Gehenna" is used by Jesus only to the Jews in the 4 Gospels... He uses this word because He knows they know what He means when He uses that word. the only time this word "Gehenna" is used outside of the Gospels is in James 3:6, and is used in a figurative sense

 

[Hillsage]

I believe that perfect worship is emulation---However it is difficult to emulate a being who is double minded.

Especially when on considers the fact that He demands that WE ALWAYS MUST FORGIVE...even our enemies. But He, apparently isn't going to meet that standard Himself. It simply forces me to say to myself; "If that is true, who is more 'loving'...us or Him?" I vote HIM because I'm still falling a bit short.

 

[Soulgazer]

Especially when on considers the fact that He demands that WE ALWAYS MUST FORGIVE...even our enemies. But He, apparently isn't going to meet that standard Himself. It simply forces me to say to myself; "If that is true, who is more 'loving'...us or Him?" I vote HIM because I'm still falling a bit short.

Well....yeah. I just somehow have this sense that the Father is larger than I am. If I can come up with a better way, then I am sure His is even better. If the Father does not forgive His enemies....He would not be a Christian. Which makes no sense to me at all.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Well....yeah. I just somehow have this sense that the Father is larger than I am. If I can come up with a better way, then I am sure His is even better. If the Father does not forgive His enemies....He would not be a Christian. Which makes no sense to me at all.

This is how I find peace with God- letting God be God. If you put in your trust on the Lord, you will find no fault in Him.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hello Timothew, I think perhaps I have entered into two as I do not see my ealier posts in this one. I know there were two and somehow jumped from one to another. I will respond to these and then check the others.

I will first mention that as I spoke of life in the other thread, in this response the focus will be on death.

First, one must recognize that when man dies physically, he does not cease to exist. We can look at Luke 16 and the Mount of Transfiguration, for example, to see a conscious existence of men after death.

So the precedent for death being visited upon someone without them ceasing to exist is seen in scripture.

In this age, post-Cross, we know to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. Those that die...experience death, still exist after death.

And when we have such a witness to the conscious existance of existance after death, it is hard to understand how it is denied. But, we will see how it goes.

The plain words of the bible disagree with the view that the result of sin is eternal torture (or whatever) in hell.

You say that, but offer nothing to support it. I have not checked the other thread, but so far I have seen no rebuttal to the scripture presented thus far establishing a conscious existance after the dead are raised and judged.

The lost , Satan, and demons will all share the same fate.

So if it is so plain in the Bible, and it disagrees with eternal punishment...please present the scripture.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. You should warn sinners, but you should warn them of the true fate, death.

Better to warn them of eternal separation from God.

Consider:

Mark 12

King James Version (KJV)

18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,

19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.


The Sadducees, much like certain groups today, denied an afterlife, as well as a resurrection.

The subject here concerns those that have died. They are dead.

They give an analogy, much like the one offered on one of these threads, in this case the subject is the fate of those that have physically died.



20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.

21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.

22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.


Okay, all are dead...right? No question?

What the Sadducees are going to try to do, is express their grand enlightenment to the Lord, and show how silly it is to consider existence after death. And again, these guys do not believe in existance after death.



23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.


Not believing in a resurrection, because after all, there is nothing to resurrect, they want to know whose wife she shall be.

Pretty clever fellows, eh?


24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?


What scriptures do we think the Lord refers to? The Hebrew scriptures, of course.

The charge is on target, the Sadducees are in error. Let's see why:


25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.


Like the Angels, in my view...they will be eternal. Notice which dead He speaks about is not distinguished here.


26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?


To illustrate their ignorance of scripture, He reminds them of a familiar passage in which the Lord God identifies Himself as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

The point being, He does not say "I was the God of them..."

The Sadducees, in looking at this example, should have, like the scribe that approached the Lord shorty after, recognized this as sound speech.


27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.


In other words, they have died but they still exist.

Continued...

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Thanks.
I believe that God is both merciful and just. His justice is tempered with mercy. So he doesn't torture sinners alive in hell for all eternity, because his mercy lasts forever.

If all the damned get the same painless grant to no longer exist, then there is no Justice. Civilized humans do not even treat all condemned equally, because we know their crimes merit different treatment. It would not be Just to treat the thief the same as a murderer. I think people are sacrificing any sense of God being Just, just to soothe one's own sensibilities in regards to what we see as being Loving and Merciful.

Just like not everyone in Heaven gets the same reward. Not sure why that is so difficult to comprehend.

 

[Soulgazer]

If all the damned get the same painless grant to no longer exist, then there is no Justice. Civilized humans do not even treat all condemned equally, because we know their crimes merit different treatment. It would not be Just to treat the thief the same as a murderer. I think people are sacrificing any sense of God being Just, just to soothe one's own sensibilities in regards to what we see as being Loving and Merciful.

Just like not everyone in Heaven gets the same reward. Not sure why that is so difficult to comprehend.

There is no Justice in torture. Your argument falls flat in that regard. Civilized Humans do not torture for "justice". Are men greater than the Father?

When I was a single father raising my child, I never hit him. Didn't have to. I kept an imaginary "ugly stick" in a kitchen drawer.....all I had to do was announce that I was getting it out, and in extreme cases, open the drawer. "Hell" is the Lords "Ugly stick".