Sins after Baptism

[New_Wineskin]

I'm glad you found a way to avoid sin, but I would suggest that you can have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ within the Catholic Church.

It sounds like you struggled with a besetting sin. That happens.

As a Catholic, I believe in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I would consider returning to the Church at some point.

The concept of a personal relationship with the Lord was not even implied while I was in the Catholic environment - at least , for those not Catholic priests .

 

[Giver]

I'm glad you found a way to avoid sin, but I would suggest that you can have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ within the Catholic Church.

It sounds like you struggled with a besetting sin. That happens.

As a Catholic, I believe in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. I would consider returning to the Church at some point.

What do you do when the Holy Spirit/Jesus tells you that we are not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason?

What do you do when Jesus tells you that it is dangerous to call any man here on earth your father? When Jesus tells you that it is dangerous to be called father? Now you do know that Jesus is talking about someone who is not your physical father?

What do you do after Jesus sits next to you and tells you that a Christian does not sin? Has you open the bible and explains where it tells us one no longer sins.

What do you do when Jesus teaches you that a Christian needs to give up his or her possessions? When Jesus teaches you that a Christian does not store up for one’s future.

What do you do when Jesus tells you that to receive communion one does not need a priest to consecrate the host?

What do you do when the Holy Spirit tells you that no matter who tells you anything about God be it a priest, bishop, or anyone that you are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong? Then what do you do when Jesus tells you what the Church is teaching is wrong?

 

[steve_bakr]

Do you think so ? Do you think that it is possible or probable ?

Yes, I believe it is possible. I think the stickler is in the terminology.

 

[steve_bakr]

The concept of a personal relationship with the Lord was not even implied while I was in the Catholic environment - at least , for those not Catholic priests .

Perhaps we Protestant converts brought it over with us. Seriously, I think that the personal relationship is implicit in the New Ordo Mass, certainly in the Eucharist.

 

[Standing Up]

Perhaps we Protestant converts brought it over with us. Seriously, I think that the personal relationship is implicit in the New Ordo Mass, certainly in the Eucharist.

That'd be another thread perhaps, but since you brought it up, keep in mind the function of a priest. He is an intermediary. So, in a sense, there's a theological, spatial difference here between RC mass and you, as NT priest, offering eucharist (thanks). As the other poster said, the "personal relationship" is different in the groups.

 

[steve_bakr]

What do you do when the Holy Spirit/Jesus tells you that we are not to hurt/harm anyone for any reason?

What do you do when Jesus tells you that it is dangerous to call any man here on earth your father? When Jesus tells you that it is dangerous to be called father? Now you do know that Jesus is talking about someone who is not your physical father?

What do you do after Jesus sits next to you and tells you that a Christian does not sin? Has you open the bible and explains where it tells us one no longer sins.

What do you do when Jesus teaches you that a Christian needs to give up his or her possessions? When Jesus teaches you that a Christian does not store up for one’s future.

What do you do when Jesus tells you that to receive communion one does not need a priest to consecrate the host?

What do you do when the Holy Spirit tells you that no matter who tells you anything about God be it a priest, bishop, or anyone that you are to ask Jesus if it is right or wrong? Then what do you do when Jesus tells you what the Church is teaching is wrong?

Whatever side you land on--by that I mean Protestant or Catholic--I think it is important to have other Christians around you to get objective verification of what you feel has been revealed to you.

BTW, What if you called the priest "Pastor?"

The Catholic Church gives creedence to private revelations that are consistent with the teachings of the Church.

 

[steve_bakr]

That'd be another thread perhaps, but since you brought it up, keep in mind the function of a priest. He is an intermediary. So, in a sense, there's a theological, spatial difference here between RC mass and you, as NT priest, offering eucharist (thanks). As the other poster said, the "personal relationship" is different in the groups.

The priest consecrates the host, but when I partake of it, there is no intermediary--only complete participation in the Divine Nature, as Peter would say.

Elsewhere, I try to practice the presence of God, as Brother Lawrence would say.

 

[Standing Up]

The priest consecrates the host, but when I partake of it, there is no intermediary--only complete participation in the Divine Nature, as Peter would say.

Elsewhere, I try to practice the presence of God, as Brother Lawrence would say.

No priest, no consecration, no change, no forgiveness, no partaking, shall I continue?

We are the NT called-out ones, brother steve_baker.

 

[Giver]

Whatever side you land on--by that I mean Protestant or Catholic--I think it is important to have other Christians around you to get objective verification of what you feel has been revealed to you.

BTW, What if you called the priest "Pastor?"

The Catholic Church gives creedence to private revelations that are consistent with the teachings of the Church.

The point of not calling another man father is to not raise a brother up above another. Calling another brother pastor if it is in anyway raising him up above, or setting him apart is not right.

Objective verification from other Christians? Do you truly know how many different understanding of what Jesus taught there are? Who can give an objective verification other then Jesus?

I hung around with a number of Catholic priests, went golfing, drinking, and parting with, and there was very little agreement between them, about what Jesus taught. Now if someone officially asked them what a Catholic was supposed to believe, then most of them would give the official Catholic teachings.

One priest that I was very close to, and helped teach his adult information classes, once told me Jesus never did any miracles, nor was there truly a Holy Spirit. He said that the apostles used Holy Spirit to explain events they did not understand. Now I told him he was wrong, but he did not care if I believed him or not.

Just to let you know, I personally went to four different Catholic bishops with my witness, and not one believed me to be wrong. I was told to go do what Jesus told me to do. One bishop told me that his job was to administer the Church, and I was to do as Jesus tells me to do.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thanks for your post. But I don't know why the territory is precarious. I thought my post reflected standard Catholic theology.

Your post did, indeed. However, it is precarious, nevertheless, in postulating a possibility that, according to Jesus, cannot happen.

 

[steve_bakr]

No priest, no consecration, no change, no forgiveness, no partaking, shall I continue?

We are the NT called-out ones, brother steve_baker.

It seems you may be trying to instill negative feelings about my Church. It doesn't work. I love being a Catholic. I would address your issues, but your post seems to be a simple taunt.

 

[steve_bakr]

Your post did, indeed. However, it is precarious, nevertheless, in postulating a possibility that, according to Jesus, cannot happen.

What possibility did I postulate?

 

[steve_bakr]

The point of not calling another man father is to not raise a brother up above another. Calling another brother pastor if it is in anyway raising him up above, or setting him apart is not right.

Objective verification from other Christians? Do you truly know how many different understanding of what Jesus taught there are? Who can give an objective verification other then Jesus?

I hung around with a number of Catholic priests, went golfing, drinking, and parting with, and there was very little agreement between them, about what Jesus taught. Now if someone officially asked them what a Catholic was supposed to believe, then most of them would give the official Catholic teachings.

One priest that I was very close to, and helped teach his adult information classes, once told me Jesus never did any miracles, nor was there truly a Holy Spirit. He said that the apostles used Holy Spirit to explain events they did not understand. Now I told him he was wrong, but he did not care if I believed him or not.

Just to let you know, I personally went to four different Catholic bishops with my witness, and not one believed me to be wrong. I was told to go do what Jesus told me to do. One bishop told me that his job was to administer the Church, and I was to do as Jesus tells me to do.

It seems you aren't open to being within the Catholic Church at the moment. I was putting that thought out there for your consideration. I cannot judge your private revelations. I only know that the Catholic Church is where I am supposed to be. Perhaps for you it is someplace else, I don't know.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Perhaps we Protestant converts brought it over with us. Seriously, I think that the personal relationship is implicit in the New Ordo Mass, certainly in the Eucharist.

Back where I was raised , they are trying to get back to Latin - the other way around .

 

[New_Wineskin]

Yes, I believe it is possible. I think the stickler is in the terminology.

For me , the hardest thing is the usage of the same words and not using different words for the same idea . It appears , for a while , that we would be saying the same thing and agreeing until another sentence pops in that shows completely different mindsets and nothing close to agreement .

 

[steve_bakr]

Back where I was raised , they are trying to get back to Latin - the other way around .

Hmm. I don't think it would catch on very well here. But, if it does, I'll have to bone up on Latin.

 

[steve_bakr]

For me , the hardest thing is the usage of the same words and not using different words for the same idea . It appears , for a while , that we would be saying the same thing and agreeing until another sentence pops in that shows completely different mindsets and nothing close to agreement .

Yes, that could happen. I guess we would have to define the terms. But I'm talking about a general, overall agreement, not necessarily a line-by-line agreement.

 

[New_Wineskin]

I think we are all in agreement in terms of the univeral sense. If we talked about the application of specific sins, our terminology might be different, but I think we could reach an agreement.

Yes, I believe it is possible. I think the stickler is in the terminology.

Yes, that could happen. I guess we would have to define the terms. But I'm talking about a general, overall agreement, not necessarily a line-by-line agreement.

Well then , I await your future attempts at agreements . It will be interesting , indeed .

 

[bbbbbbb]

What possibility did I postulate?

"To me, the verses seem to suggest that no one--aka, Satan--could snatch anyone belonging to Jesus away from him. But, since I believe we have free will, the verses do not necessarily say that we of ourselves could not conceivably sin so obstinately that we may lose friendship with God.

I say "conceivably" because I believe committing what we Catholics call mortal sin is in reality very difficult to do, because at some point it involves a deliberate rejection of God.

Even then, we believe that mortal sins can be forgiven. The only unforgiveable sin is ultimate and obstinate refusal to repent. Because, how can we be forgiven if we do not repent?"


You present the possibility of mortal sin (or obstinate sin) becoming so serious that, if left unrepented, it will lose the "friendship of God" whatever that might mean. For many Catholics it means eternal damnation in hell.

If one is being held in the hands of God and of Christ, such a possibility is absurd - at least if Christ actually meant what He said.

I also find your statement that "mortal sin is in reality very difficult to do" to be somewhat peculiar. The list of mortal sins is quite lengthy and I find several, such as voting for the wrong political candidate, to be, in reality, quite easy to do. In fact, I know of several sincere Catholics who frequently attend confession because they have committed such mortal sins. I have one friend who is in quite a state now because he is convinced that it is a mortal sin not to vote, but he cannot, in good conscience, vote for either candidate of the two major political parties.

 

[Giver]

Steve I would like to share something with you. Mortal sin is death is that not right?

In the Early Church people knew that if one knew God and deliberately sinned, there would be no repentance. (Acts 5:1-11) The Fraud of Ananias and Sapphira imprinted that truth into them.

John knew this and that is why he said: (1 John 3:5-6) “Now you know that he appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen him or known him.”

People don’t realize that once one comes to know God he or she will not sin. A person who knows God has told God, by, his or her actions, living the whole Word of God as guided by the Holy Spirit. When a person who knows God, and is a temple of God then that person if they deliberately sin are committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, and that sin is unforgivable.

(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”