Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[someguy14]

They do fear being destroyed:

In the synagogue there was a man possessed by a demon, an evil spirit. He cried out at the top of his voice, “Ha! What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us?
Luke 4:33-34
​

Who counts Jesus as a lie, except those that deny God to His face.

Luke 16:19-31
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
​

 

[Timothew]

Who counts Jesus as a lie, except those that deny God to His face.

What?

 

[Timothew]

I believe that those who refuse to repent of their sins will perish.

 

[someguy14]

Yes, I agree with that. Do you agree that the wages of sin is death, and therefore not eternal conscious torture?

Death is the wages of sin. All flesh must die. Judgement follows. To deny hell and the lake of fire, one must deny Jesus crucified and risen. One must deny Gods justice. One must deny God Himself.

 

[Timothew]

Death is the wages of sin. All flesh must die. Judgement follows.

I agree

 

[someguy14]

Every conscience will bear witness. Man is without excuse. God is blameless.

 

[someguy14]

I agree

Do you "timothew"...

Judgement follows.

 

[someguy14]

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

[Timothew]

Do you "timothew"...

Judgement follows.

Yes, I agree "someguy"...

And at that time, those who have rejected Jesus Christ's offer of forgiveness and eternal life will go to their second death. Jesus offered to pay the wages of sin, which is death for them. They rejected the offer. So they must pay themselves. The wages of sin are still death. How do you want to pay? The only acceptable payment is death.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Why do you twist what I say? You know that I believe that there is a resurrection on the final day when we all stand before Jesus Christ to receive eternal life or go to the second death. God can raise us up from death. Was Lazarus a different person after Jesus resurrected him? He perished, but God has the ability to grant life to dead people. I'm not saying anything that is odd. I'm merely saying what the bible says. I don't know exactly how it works, but God raises us up from death. Read the gospels, Jesus raised dead people back to life. I don't know why you , as a Christian, would try to deny that God is able to raise the dead to life.

Have not twisted your words, simply connected all the dots.

You have said we all persih at death. That is the same perish you say happens to those who are tossed into Hell, the only difference being those in Hell will never be "raised from the dead" again.

Speaking of "raising from the dead" you have maintained that there is nothing remaining of us after death, we perish and remain "just dead" until "resurrection". If there is nothing remaining of us, then there is nothing to be raised. Which leaves only God's ability to create, which is certainly without limit or equal.

God could certainly recreate each of us anytime He wants, but if prior to that we do not exist in any form, then what is being created is a copy of us and not the original.

It is no different than the claims of a scientist who also does not believe in any understanding of an immortal soul which is unique to each of us and indeed makes us who we are. They would also maintain nothing remains of the individual after death. They would also claim if one could perfectly create the way a specific individuals brain functions and load all the persons memories into something that they could essentially make that person live forever.

I personally do not believe that even if science could perfectly do that, as certainly God could, it does not follow that what they created is the original. In fact in their view, if that could be done, it could be done before the original expires, which certainly proves that what they "create" is not a resurrection of the orignal at all. It is a new creation.

Science cannot do that, not now and maybe not ever. But even if they ever could, it does not follow they can thereby make everyone live eternally. They could create something that certainly has our memories, thinks like us and could even believe they are us, but it is not us and certainly not a resurrection of us.

Yes God could do that, He could do it right now while we all still live, duplicating everyone. But if that is what is understood as a resurrection, it does not follow what God is creating is us any more than it would in the mind of scientist who imagine being able to do the same thing.

So do away with the human soul meaning anything other than breath and one does away with any notion of an afterlife for us and a resurrection.

Yes I believe in resurrections, and certainly those depicted in the Bible. But it is only because I also believe in human souls that I think such resurrections are possible. I do NOT see how such resurrections are possible in a construct which says those people perished. It would mean then that what God did was create a duplciate and put it back in the same body of the original - a sham. While I think God can do anything, I do not think He is decietful. Those people resurrected where the originals who had died BECAUSE they have immortal souls and that same orignal soul was rejoined with the same original body.

 

[Timothew]

Resurrected Lazarus was the same guy who died four days earlier. If he spent four days in hell, he didn't mention it. That's strange. If he spent four days in heaven, he didn't mention that either. That's very strange. I think he spent four days being dead in the tomb, which is also what Jesus said. Jesus said "Lazarus is dead", when he spoke plainly about it. Jesus did not say "Lazy is in hell and I have to drag him up," or "he is in heaven now, and I have to pull him down."

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Resurrected Lazarus was the same guy who died four days earlier. If he spent four days in hell, he didn't mention it. That's strange. If he spent four days in heaven, he didn't mention that either. That's very strange. I think he spent four days being dead in the tomb, which is also what Jesus said. Jesus said "Lazarus is dead", when he spoke plainly about it. Jesus did not say "Lazy is in hell and I have to drag him up," or "he is in heaven now, and I have to pull him down."

So we make a claim based on what the Bible does not say?

How is that logical?

Lazarus is not recorded as saying anything. How do we then conclude what he did or did not say about where he was or what he saw/experienced?

Am also unaware of any construct which says Lazarus was in Heaven. I do not know where his soul was or what he experienced. I guess it was not unpleasant as he appears to have been a follower of our Lord.

But I do know that if something no longer exists, is "just dead", that the only way to make it exist once again is to RECREATE it. That is not a resurrection in any sense of that word. It is making something new. Resurrection requires there being something to make rise again, which would be a soul.

And yes, in this case that would mean putting the same soul back into the body Lazarus had when he died. Since that body stunk already it would also obviously mean healing that body at the same time.

 

[seeingeyes]

Even a human father can make a choice, no matter how terrible, and it be driven by love to act to save one child and it result in the demise of another.

The only trouble with this comparison is that while the earthly father is merely responding to the conditions of a fallen world, the heavenly Father manufactured those conditions.

Our God is not a victim of circumstance.

 

[Timothew]

So we make a claim based on what the Bible does not say?

How is that logical?

No.

The claim is based on what the bible DOES say. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The only trouble with this comparison is that while the earthly father is merely responding to the conditions of a fallen world, the heavenly Father manufactured those conditions.

Our God is not a victim of circumstance.

Well I agree God created everything, and including the conditions which allowed some of what He created to fail.

That still does not erase the fact a human father can act out of Love, Mercy and Justice with the result being the saving of one child and the demise of another. So the idea that our Heavenly Father cannot do what a human father can do is putting a limitation on God that I do not see as reasonable.

If a child's free choice places himself at odds with the father to the point of being a peril to the other children to have freely roaming around and the father has prepared a place to permanently seperate that child from the others, how is it not Love, Just and Merciful to send that child to such a place?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

No.

The claim is based on what the bible DOES say. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But that is not what was claimed in your prior post.

The stand made in the prior post was on the Bible's account of Lazarus and what the Bible is silent on, namely why Lazarus is not recorded as saying anything about his afterlife experience. Since the Bible records nothing Lazarus says, we can only speculate, and since we are speculating there is nothing to preclude the idea that in his case he remembered nothing about the experience.

If we define human life as a body and immortal soul united as one, then any eternal life of a "human" we speak of must necessarily include having a body that is immortal like the soul is. The promise of eternal life God made to us in Person was for some of us not merely getting that new immortal body and having it re-united with our soul, but also that we live forever in Heaven with God(whatever/where ever one believes that is).

Whether that is the same body given the damned before Judgment I do not know, but many speculate that at the very least the bodies of the damned are also immortal in some sense, but that is speculation. Given that both our bodies and souls are equally responsible for the sins of this life that could lead us to Hell, it would be fitting that both body and soul of the damned eternally experience that punishment.

In that construct our death represents a temporary seperation from this physical world when our body dies, but the soul is uneffected. Unaffected but obviosly no longer tied to a human body. Where it goes I do not know. But in this construct the wages of sin is still death, as our bodies die. And since we already defined a human as body and soul, that death is very real and even though the soul remains we would not "be" in our natural state, the state we were created in - which is a body joined to a soul.

The "second death" after Judgment would effect both body and soul, even if both are immortal. So it is still possible to say the damned experience death again. Just like perishing can represent ruin, we cannot help but conclude that the hatred toward God, eternal loss of all hope, bitterness...etc of the damned would have no effect on their souls or bodies. We know people under great duress in this life can permanently change, even to the point one would say the person that was before has perished, is no more, will never be the same, died...etc. Not a great leap to imagine Hell, whatever and where ever that is, would have similar and likely greater effect on a human (which is a body and soul).

"Fire" and "burning" are descriptive of pain, and notably that of Hell generally expressed as something occuring to someone who is very much alive as it happens. Whether it is actual fire and burning I do not know. It would be enough for me to know it does not sound pleasant or painless.

Having said all that it is not possible to claim of this view that there is no death and everyone gets eternal life.

 

[Timothew]

Read Matthew 10:28, the body and soul are not immortal.
Your post is full of assumptions and statements with no backing:

But that is not what was claimed in your prior post.

If you have never read any posts by me saying that I believe the wages of sin is death and not eternal torture because Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death, then you simply have not been paying attention.

If we define human life as a body and immortal soul united as one

This is an assumption. Human life is not defined as a body and immortal soul united as one. The idea that there is an immortal soul was introduced to Christianity by greek who followed the writings of Plato. The bible specifically says that the soul is not immortal. "The soul who sins shall die" Ezekiel 18:20, "Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna." Matthew 10:28

Whether that is the same body given the damned before Judgment I do not know, but many speculate that at the very least the bodies of the damned are also immortal in some sense, but that is speculation. Given that both our bodies and souls are equally responsible for the sins of this life that could lead us to Hell, it would be fitting that both body and soul of the damned eternally experience that punishment.

The Bible proves such speculation wrong. Ezekiel 18:20, Matthew 10:28
Body and Soul are destroyed in Hell (Gehenna).

"Fire" and "burning" are descriptive of pain, and notably that of Hell generally expressed as something occuring to someone who is very much alive as it happens. Whether it is actual fire and burning I do not know. It would be enough for me to know it does not sound pleasant or painless.

Don't forget that the greek word for burning that is used is katakausai, which means to be completed consumed by fire. The prefix "kata" indicates that whatever is burnt is completely burnt down. Also refer to all of the other bible passages that say that body and soul are destroyed, and etenal life is only for those who receive it from God.

Having said all that it is not possible to claim of this view that there is no death and everyone gets eternal life.

In your view, everyone is conscious. The redeemed are conscious of eternal life in heaven, and the unredeemed are conscious of eternal torment in hell. It is not possible to be conscious unless a person is alive. If a person is conscious for all eternity, then they are also alive for all eternity. If they are alive for all eternity, then they have eternal life. But they are not part of the group that receives eternal life, only the redeemed receive eternal life. So your doctrine breaks down. The lost simultaneously have and don't have eternal life.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The stand made in the prior post was on the Bible's account of Lazarus and what the Bible is silent on, namely why Lazarus is not recorded as saying anything about his afterlife experience. Since the Bible records nothing Lazarus says, we can only speculate, and since we are speculating there is nothing to preclude the idea that in his case he remembered nothing about the experience.

This one paragraph is spot on, even though you deny it, Timothew.

Here is what you originally said:

Resurrected Lazarus was the same guy who died four days earlier. If he spent four days in hell, he didn't mention it. That's strange. If he spent four days in heaven, he didn't mention that either. That's very strange. I think he spent four days being dead in the tomb, which is also what Jesus said. Jesus said "Lazarus is dead", when he spoke plainly about it. Jesus did not say "Lazy is in hell and I have to drag him up," or "he is in heaven now, and I have to pull him down."

Have you ever heard the criticism of atheism that it is based on "absence of evidence rather than evidence of absence"? The same criticism applies to your reasoning above.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

What LutheranMafia said!

 

[LutheranMafia]

I'd like to reiterated FWG's question about the spirit and ask some more of my own. You are so vague about the nature of the spirit and I think his question was very incisive. Since you so often deny that your views are properly being expressed when anyone attempts to extrapolate your views beyond simple three and four letter sentences, asking questions is the only way to get any clarification.


1) Do you believe that the spirit of man is conscious or unconscious?

Mikecpking's form of annihilationism definitely seemed to view the spirit as nothing more than an unconscious life-force, like electricity powering an appliance, so I think that FWG's summation of annihilationism in general was spot on, even if it doesn't apply to your particular brand of annihilationism.

2) Along similar lines I'd like to ask you about materialism again. As I see it the only thing beyond pure materialism in your belief is God and the angels, nothing else. Is that correct? If not then in what other ways do your beliefs transcend materialism besides the existence of God and the angels?

3) I've asked you this before, but I forgot the answer. What do you think rephaim are? Why would the Bible speak of the spirits of the dead if the dead have no spirit?

4) If the Jews didn't believe in ghosts then why did the Disciples believe that Jesus was a ghost when they first saw him after the resurrection?

5) How is it that angels and demons can have spirits independent of bodies, but that nothing like this exists in humans?