Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[strangertoo]

Drbubbalove;
Yes, I totally agree with your statement of " it represents a total separation from God",

life 'feels' like separation from God until one 'discovers' Love is a great way to live WITH God 'inside' , so anyone can choose to stop abusing folks with sin and Love them and himself instead... no need to feel separate from God in life

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

death is simply the spirit returning to God and usually means the body is destroyed , but even Jesus' crucifixion is called 'destruction' ['apoleia' in Greek in the bible] and clearly Jesus came back to life in the body after destruction ... so it is important in understanding scripture that one realise that the soul [the physical life of a body in all its aspects] is CREATED , but the spirit of a man is NOT PHYSICAL, but of God, ... so the soul [life] ENDS at death just as it began, but the spirit returns to God and by the spirit the soul can be re-created in a new or renewed viable body :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it...

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [NOTE: spirit !] ; and man became a living soul.

thus one BECOMES a soul, but our spirit is what we endlessly ARE... it is the spirit by which we are resurrected to BECOME the soul again , physical life is restored

but note the spirit is of God, it cannot be destroyed, it is immortal because God is spirit, untouchable by anything physical, created, separate IN ESSENCE from all physicality, exists endlessly without anything physical, creates worlds, 'universes' , which thus begin and end... but God, the spirit, does not change, is perfect, remains the same,cannot change because time is created, ends when space-time universes end, begins when they begin ... time is physical , not spirit ... in fact time measures inbuilt destruction of the physical [called the second 'law' of thermodynamics, or the 'arrow' of time ... that which makes time go one way...]

thus the spirit cannot die , not even possible , God cannot die and the spirit is ONE [in all]... so why does the spirit 'manifest' as life , why does God create at all ?... clearly God TELLS us , the 'command' of God to Love , not sin any more ... Love makes us ONE because when al men come to Love as Jesus promises he will persuade all to try and do eventually, then all live happily as ONE in the physical, we all become ONE somewhat like the one-ness of God , as in heaven so on earth!

BUT man is destroying this earth with sin [mostly due to living by greed of the few in 'capitalism' , squeezing the masses into misery for empty 'profit' of a few ... but the end of it is terrible , destroying life as we are doing, we are already in mass extinction of species on earth, means we will all starve , life makes our food ...it is then insane what me are doing, and it surely doesn't make anyone happy for long before making folks very unhappy and indeed killing billions as the scripture explains will happen [and it even says how]

God always has advised Love ,not to choose sin [as Satan advises sin and claims it is good, but indeed his lies become more and more apparent as time goes on... only God advises on long-term happiness of all] ... but God cannot MAKE anyone stop sinning, cannot MAKE one Love others, since Love is not Love unless chosen freely... so if one chooses to sin then god has to let life teach one one's seriously bad mistake, just pick up the pieces when one realises how foolish it is to abuse oneself and others with sin wen one could choose to Love instead...

so God has to let most men die sinners because men think short-term, grab what they can instead of sharing, eat next years seed because they get hungry as we destroy life's fertility and ability to feed us... so we all starve suddenly ... at least the end of life on this earth is mercifully swift...

and God takes the very FEW who Love [Matt 7:14] away from the self-destruction of the many , translates those who choose Love over sin because they are the best ones to build the kingdom come for Jesus in the new earth and heavens ... and so the kingdom come is righteous to love from the start and God lets it grow for a thousand years [the infamous Millennium] before resurrecting the ALL sinners from hell [Rev 20:13] [NOTE: so look, Jesus says ALL are resurrected from hell, there is no 'eternal hell' ,also it states that hell and death END in the lake of fire , God denies death after resurrection to the lake of fire of those who sin in the kingdom come :-
Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

so is that a new kind of 'hell' of the living [called 'gehenna' after the valley in which is the rubbish tip and place of burning bodies outside Jerusalem's walls , the valley of the son of Hinnom] , some say so,but the do not notice that resurrection is to the body , to the physical :-
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

so at Jesus' return, if one troubles to read more carefully, the dead saints are FIRST resurrected to the body [having previously perfected Love in 'baptism of fire' in life before death for Jesus, for Love, for God] ...only AFTER resurrection to the physical having ceased sinning in life , been baptised of the spirit by God BECAUSE they Love, not sin any more, they CAN be translated to spirit having joined with the vey few saints still alive when Jesus returns...

the point then is that all the dead are resurrected to life , only those who perfect Love in life can be translated to spirit free of death ['saved'] but God can also manifest those saved first to build the kingdom come with the manifested Jesus as king of these kings in the new earth , a PHYSICAL realm like this earth in the 'new heavens' , the new universe required to create the new earth [just as it took our massive universe to create one planet stable enough for mankind to evolve and get as far as we did before our sin overwhelmed nature and kills us all]

in short we start again , but God uses the few Loving saints who follow Jesus by rejecting all further sin [so are forgiven PAST sin when they STOP abusing folks , repent fully to have NO DESIRE to abuse others any longer , choose Love over all sin , because sin destroys everything , Love lets men eventually find happiness in life] , God uses the few to build the righteous-to -Love kingdom come of Jesus' rule BY LOVE... it means those who sin there must be killed and so 'sleep' again in death until the countless many saved in the kingdom are translated to spirit free of death -Rev 7:9-10 - NOTE much LATER than the few saved first in this earth , salvation is a power process, God uses the few firstborn to the spirit to rule and minister to billions later in the true mass salvation of mankind...

so why resurrect sinners if they were prejudged at death as much religious tradition claims... clearly the tradition of men is false [as indeed one could tell by its DIVISION]

the bible explains why men die , death frees men from sin [Rom 6:7] which is why most men don't need grace , only the FEW saints [Jude 1:14] of this earth need grace , so indeed the scripture states that grace is only for those whose fathers broke the old covenant , those God has said all along i the OT and NT will be His priests and kings of the kingdom ... not because they are special in any way at all, only because God had to NAME someone in prophecy for sake of proving later that He CAN prophesy, does KNOW the future ... the 'elect' are only chosen for sake of God's image to men, God says over and over how foolish and stubborn they are like other men, nothing special at all... and God makes sure that no-one can tell who they are, only taking a few Jews [about one in seven saints are Jews] , and the House of Israel disappeared , merged with gentiles worldwide, long before the Jews were scattered, are indistinguishable from gentiles having lived as gentiles for thousands of years mixed in with all nations... unlike Jews worshipping pagan gods until the few saints reach them and teach them who they are [as Jesus commanded all who follow him to do]:-

Deuteronomy 28:64 And the LORD shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.

so countless many, billions, are saved LATER [Rev 7:9-10] who clearly are destroyed as sinners in the wrath of God against ALL sinners in the END of this earth and heavens...

so it is as well to remember that ALL that God 'does' is 'create' worlds which end ... and death 'has no sting' because allare resurrected and FREED of sin by death [Rom 6:7]

so God can at last baptise all flesh immediately after the resurrection of all sinners from hell [Rev 20:13] just as He promises [Joel 2:28] , so all men KNOW all truth of God in the kingdom come, no more scrabbling through mangled scripture by sinners who refuse to stop sinning but seek to find a way to God without turning to love instead of sin... but there is none, mass religion of all sinners fails them , but does teach them that Love really is the only way and they take that advice in the kingdom come AFTER death, past sins LEFT behind by death, not grace... the many saved by WORKS [Rev 20:13 in the new earth prior to judgement day ... that then is why God resurrects sinners , even those who claim sinners are pre-judged by sin in this earth... God's mercy of Love really does ENDURE to ALL generations , no exceptions :-

Psalms 100:5 For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.

religious sinners are simply deluded in this life , as Jesus says -Rev 13:3-4, also 2Thess 2, etc

which brings us to baptism of fire of the final batch of men in the lake of fire... after a second death frees them from sin yet again [Rom 6:7] having sinned in Jesus' kingdom come...

'baptism of fire' is only the last of three baptisms necessary before salvation by translation to spirit, as Jesus showed fist, the few saints of this earth follow, the countless many follow in the kingdom come, the last men follow in the lake of fire...

so how and why does it work ? How does God convince the greatest sinners of all time and Satan himself [as a man Ezek 28] to stop sinning and try Love, find it WORKS for them and sin does not ?

the answer is poetic justice, God takes away the 'easy prey' at 'judgement day' , saving billions who more easily accept that Love is a great way to live happily together without sin...

in the lake of fire the evil are concentrated then, sin against one another, make life a misery for each other, so men seek another way ... God's mercy endures to all as they abandon sin because it is shown not to work at all for them any more , Satan is eventually left alone with no-one worshipping him for his sinning way of lies as the whole earth does in this earth -Rev 13:3-4- Satan too is broken of sin in the end, admits he is no god, accepts Jesus as Jesus states all creation will [so note Ezek 28, Satan is created] :-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

all accept Jesus 'commandment' to the saints to love, not sin any more, in the end ,ALL are HAPPY with god's Truth about Love, God PROVES He is god of all men, that He is RIGHT for everyone... ALL glory to God !

Psalms 10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

Psalms 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Drbubbalove;
Yes, I totally agree with your statement of " it represents a total separation from God", but sorry, I'm confused about your theories on hell, lake of fire, death, physical, non-physical, or maybe it was on a previous post and I missed it.

I guess the puzzling point is the statement " hell, lake of fire, death are concepts and not a 'thing'". And yes, I agree its (whatever it is) a permanent separation from God, but I guess where we differ is your thinking is something of a continuation and I believe a total finale in destruction. If I read it right.

doc8645

I think you read it write. Hell is forever JUST as Heaven is forever.

 

[doc8645]

Strangertoo
There seems to be a lot going on in your post, but towards the end it kinda sounds like nobody is lost, all are saved even Satan. As you point to Ezek. 28 as a man, but Ezek. 28 talks about Satan as man and entity and states he will 'die' the death of the slain, I (God) destroyed you, ....and I turned you to ashes upon the earth, you have become a horror and shall be no more forever". and in 2 Thes. 2 Yes, it does warn profusely about being tricked and deluded, but there again it goes on to state the outcome- 2 thes 2:8 "and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming".

I guess I just read things different, I don't see that everybody tht ever lived is saved and that hell and the lake of fire is a training lesson until we all eventually except Christ and no one is destroyed or consumed, if indeed that was the premise of your post. If not I apologize for not getting it right.

doc8645

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You must admit however it is a more pleasant view to believe everyone gets to eventually gain admittance to Heaven. Why Jesus needed to die seems foggy in this theology if it were true, as it seems some people just need more time rather than a Savior.

 

[Fascinated With God]

I don't think there is much evidence that OT Jews believed in reincarnation.

Behold, all these things does God do -- twice, even three times with a man -- to bring his soul back from the pit that he may be enlightened with the light of the living.
Job 33:29
​

Clearly the OT Jews did have at least a limited belief in reincarnation.

Reincarnation is primarily Kaballah, which didn't come until long after the NT;

They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life."
Luke 9:19
​

Clearly NT Jews had a belief in reincarnation. This is incontrovertible. In the Talmud (written in the 100's AD) it speaks of an intermediate incarnation of the messiah alive at that time, not the end times. A student is told to go ask him why he doesn't reveal himself to the world (he is a leper in Rome). Thus the term, "leper messiah".

and it definitely falls in the category of the Jews perverting the Law with the paganistic beliefs of their surrounding peoples (which is expressly forbidden in OT).

There is clearly no connection between Hinduism/Buddhism and Judaism. Reincarnation in Hinduism and Buddhism focuses on trying to escape the cycle of reincarnation and become an "ascended master". Judaism has no such concept or goal. In Judaism there is no desire to cease reincarnating.

I don't think I subscribe to the belief that Jews believed anybody was Elijah reincarnated, because Elijah never died.

That didn't stop them from speculating as such. In the Gospel of Thomas the Disciples give a slightly different answer, they say that the people speculate that Jesus is Elisha and that John the Baptist was Elijah.

Whether inspired or not, the GoT along with Luke 9:19 clearly reflect the fact that NT Jews believed in reincarnation.




Footnote:

I suspect that the major reason why the Gospel of Thomas was rejected was because Elisha was the follower of Elijah, so by comparison that would make Jesus the follower of John the Baptists. The early church didn't want an analogy like that floating around, making Jesus look like the follower of anyone.







.

 

[Fascinated With God]

Don't be fooled by them. I stated exactly what I believe. They will twist anything. I stated that at death, people die. People remain dead until Jesus returns at Judgement Day. Then they are resurrected to life. They are judged and either given eternal life or sent to their second death. This is very straight forward. They are trying to add confusion to this.
Everytime I told them this, they said that I was avoiding the question. I explained exactly what happens. They just don't like the answer.
This is not evasive at all.

You almost always eschew any mention of the spirit and soul in your description, such as you have done here. Dealing with the existence of the spirit and soul seems to be a major problem for you. You go to great lengths to avoid any discussion of them. Saying that at death people die is not an explanation of anything. It is just a redundant statement, not any kind of meaningful elucidation.

 

[Timothew]

You almost always eschew any mention of the spirit and soul in your description, such as you have done here. Dealing with the existence of the spirit and soul seems to be a major problem for you. You go to great lengths to avoid any discussion of them. Saying that at death people die is not an explanation of anything. It is just a redundant statement, not any kind of meaningful elucidation.

It may be redundant, but what else can I do? Should I agree with people who wrongfully think that dead people don't die and remain alive forever? As to the soul. you don't HAVE a soul as if you have some disembodied part of you that travels to the stars or Detroit when you die. You ARE a soul, and when you die, you ARE a dead soul. Look at the word that is translated as "spirit". It is pneumos. Now look at the greek word that is translated "breath". It is pneumos. The EXACT same word. If a dead body breathes, it has spirit. A dead body does not breathe. It has no spirit. The OT puts this poetically, the spirit of the dead returns to God. This is true, God is able to return life to a dead body. Just look at the resurrections Jesus performed. When life is returned to a dead body, the person breathes again. He is a living soul, and he has pneumos again.

I don't go to great lengths to avoid anything. I don't have to discuss any of this with you. The fact that I do shows that I am NOT going to great lengths to avoid discussing anything. Throughout the bible the penalty for opposing God is shown to be death. I believe the bible. You seem to be going to great lengths to avoid the fact that if someone is dead, they are no longer alive.

 

[Fascinated With God]

It may be redundant, but what else can I do?

You have no choice but to be redundant? That does not speak well for your case.

Should I agree with people who wrongfully think that dead people don't die and remain alive forever?

Since no one says this it is simply a strawman argument. Another example of a weak argument.

As to the soul. you don't HAVE a soul as if you have some disembodied part of you that travels to the stars or Detroit when you die. You ARE a soul, and when you die, you ARE a dead soul. Look at the word that is translated as "spirit". It is pneumos. Now look at the greek word that is translated "breath". It is pneumos. The EXACT same word. If a dead body breathes, it has spirit. A dead body does not breathe. It has no spirit. The OT puts this poetically, the spirit of the dead returns to God. This is true, God is able to return life to a dead body. Just look at the resurrections Jesus performed. When life is returned to a dead body, the person breathes again. He is a living soul, and he has pneumos again.

OK, the soul doesn't really exist, it is just a meaningless synonym for life, and the spirit is just an automated force, like plugging an appliance into a socket, it has no consciousness of it's own. Is that your argument?

I don't go to great lengths to avoid anything. I don't have to discuss any of this with you. The fact that I do shows that I am NOT going to great lengths to avoid discussing anything. Throughout the bible the penalty for opposing God is shown to be death. I believe the bible. You seem to be going to great lengths to avoid the fact that if someone is dead, they are no longer alive.

I simply accept that the Bible uses the words soul and spirit as terms that have real meaning, whereas you are trying to define them out of existence.

 

[Timothew]

You have no choice but to be redundant? That does not speak well for your case.

Since no one says this it is simply a strawman argument. Another example of a weak argument.

OK, the soul doesn't really exist, it is just a meaningless synonym for life, and the spirit is just an automated force, like plugging an appliance into a socket, it has no consciousness of it's own. Is that your argument?

I simply accept that the Bible uses the words soul and spirit as terms that have real meaning, whereas you are trying to define them out of existence.

No.

Go learn what Conditional Immortality is before you attempt to argue against it.

I never said the soul doesn't exist, I guess you know all about straw man arguments. Take what I don't say, change it into something else and then argue against what I didn't say at all. That is the definition of a strawman argument. You lost it.

 

[Timothew]

You have no choice but to be redundant? That does not speak well for your case.

This was part of a full statement. You had to pull it out of context to make it appear to be a non-sense statement. Okay, if that's what you feel you have to do. It just shows that you really have no real proof for what you believe. Go back and re-read my post until you understand it. Take your time and read slowly.

 

[strangertoo]

Strangertoo
There seems to be a lot going on in your post,

rather there's a lot in the bible that no-one is looking at here whilst they pretend to believe what they haven't even read and understood. let alone stopped sinning so that God can baptise them and explain the whole Truth about Love and the spirit of creation...

but towards the end it kinda sounds like nobody is lost, all are saved even Satan.

if you imagine God can fail, that Love is not powerful enough to overwhelm evil in the end, then you have not listened to the scripture or His spirit... and the only reason, why one would not, is sin...

God has the will and the means and has even had that written it down, so why not begin by reading and understanding that God is not incapable of doing His will that all men be saved from the lies men live by in this [largely capitalist]world ... most being saved very simply by being freed involuntarily from sin by death [Rom 6:7] so God can get a word in edgewise in place of Satan whom most listen to now [Rev 13:3-4] so God can baptise all flesh at last in the new earth [Joel 2:28] to KNOW all Truth of Love from God Himself [John 16:13] ...thus the many choose freely to Love in Jesus' kingdom of Love created and run by kings and priests under the king of kings who are the only FEW [Matt 7:13-14] to perfect Lone as saints in this earth, following Jesus , ceasing from abusing folks with sin...

As you point to Ezek. 28 as a man, but Ezek. 28 talks about Satan as man and entity and states he will 'die' the death of the slain, I (God) destroyed you, ....and I turned you to ashes upon the earth, you have become a horror and shall be no more forever".

if you rely on the translation by sinners then you will be deluded by their efforts to conceal the Truth... so I would recommend that you CHECK the meaning with God [by ceasing sin and receiving spirit baptism] , or simply look at the words of some expert translators AND the way teh words are used in the rest of scripture to find the way past Satan's power over sinners to hide the written truth ... it involves too a little work in seeing that meanings of words must make sense ...

first note that Jesus was destroyed ['apoleia' in Greek] in crucifixion according to the NT , and yet he is resurrected to physical life three nights later [unlike what the religion of sinners teaches, Satan changed that too so that eventually he can claim the Jesus did not keep the sign of Jonah]

so destruction is only PHYSICAL , as perhaps you can see from the word itself... the spirit is of God and it is by the spirit of a man that one is resurrected to a new viable body... as if the spirit carries the life-force[soul] of a man through death to a new life... so note that the spirit is of God, immortal then , indestructible, not subject to the physical

note that it is the immortal spirit which CREATES the soul :-

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [NOTE: spirit] and man became a living soul.

Note that it is the spirit that causes a man to BECOME a soul , there is no soul beforehand, only spirit , and it becomes the physical life [soul]

note too that the spirit belongs to God and returns always to God , God is spirit and the spirit is ONE , there is no other spirit with God that is not God , so the spirit of man is as indestructible as God , endless...

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

the spirit is different in essence from the physical, the created, the spirit is uncreated , the creator... mankind is made in the image of God, which is spirit ... the essence of a man is contained in the spirit and can 'enter' another body and create the same soul again, resurrection or manifestation, it is the same process of creating the soul from the spirit, the opposite of translation to spirit from life [which Jesus obviously did after resurrection,he never died again a second time ... as Satan will , to be freed from sin yet again after sinning again in the new earth - Rom 6:7]

SO point one, destruction is physical, the soul is ALWAYS resurrected to life from death by the spirit... until it is translated to spirit free of death at last because God judges its Love perfected in life... [the latter being God's will for creation that what is physical come as close to Love as physically possible in order to know the creator ... that is the 'purpose' of this creation set by God , and it cannot fail- but does take time [twice over] and two earths, and three heavens ...

the second point misleading you is the sadder mistranslation of 'olam' as 'forever', this mistake has misled folks for a long time and is widely discussed on the web, here is Young's Literal Translation :-

Ezek 28:19 All knowing thee among the peoples Have been astonished at thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not—to the age.’

the point is well made and one can CONFIRM it by understanding that there is no 'forever' of time ... as Jesus neatly puts it, he is the END as well as the beginning, but there are man other ways to understand this widespread delusion of folks by Satan ... towards Rev 13:3-4 , all the world following the fake god and fake christ, Satan [and one can work out roughly how many do not from Jesus' figures confirmed in Jude1:14 ... it comes to about two thousand only ... God needs only tens of thousands of saints to build and run the kingdom come...

or perhaps more simply, realise that God is ALL that is endless, the created always ends as it began, as nothing , worlds all come ...and go ...and God is always the same ... as modern science proved very exactly, space-time is a single entity, time is created with universes , ends when they end... so Newton's assumption of infinite time was mistaken , time is always finite because it is created... there is no forever of time... God is time-less , without time, unable to change because change takes time...

and in 2 Thes. 2 Yes, it does warn profusely about being tricked and deluded, but there again it goes on to state the outcome- 2 thes 2:8 "and then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming".

Satan is indeed destroyed at Jesus' return, but we know his spirit cannot be destroyed, that he will be resurrected in the new earth kingdom come , as indeed Jesus details for us :-

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season
...
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison

I guess I just read things different

Well you had a lot of help from Satan's subtle altering of some words in scripture , it is less than easy to spot all the subtle changes he has had made in the long sad history which would make modern scripture an outrage to its original authors... a few work to correct that.many work against it, it is a feature of the times leading up to delusion of the whole world including all mass religion [of sinners] -Rev 13:3-4

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

NOTE though that God leaves nothing to chance, ALL who are His do stop sinning and are taught by God Himself, not from scripture, not by sinners as most in religion are, not even by saints, but by God [Heb 8:10-11, John 16:13]... so strictly speaking all this discussion is UNNECESSARY , except to help persuade people to even TRY ceasing from abusing with sin so that men CAN hear God instead of listening only to Satan's lies and temptations as the billions will all do all this life...

I don't see that everybody that ever lived is saved

Jesus says they all are, by accepting him as their king in the end, his command to Love means ceasing from sin which brings baptism of the spirit for all [Joel 2:28] and the last ones,who sin in the kingdom are 'baptised of fire' [trial to perfect Love] in the lake of fire , God's poetic justice on the most evil of men and Satan... suffering their own evil convinces them all to try Love as Jesus promises they will ... God cannot fail ,else He would not be the God of Love of all as He claims to be [and proves it even to Satan in the very end, prodigal CREATED son of perdition of God]:-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

and that hell and the lake of fire is a training lesson until we all eventually except Christ and no one is destroyed or consumed, if indeed that was the premise of your post. If not I apologize for not getting it right.

well perhaps you can see a little of what a worthy opponent to the Truth originally in scripture that Satan is , why God's teachings are kept 100% pure by teaching His few saints Himself personally ...

indeed why stopping abuse by sinning is vastly more important than reading the scripture or 'going to church on Sunday' because stopping sinning is the only way to BEGIN seeking one's salvation ... it is SEALED absolutely, and on pain of a second death for sin, so no sinner can enter the kingdom of God and pollute the Love there which is the main force which saves the many -Rev 7:9-10 - billions saved by works [Rev 20:13] after death, not grace , frees them from sin [Rom 6:7] so that they can at last be baptised of the spirit [Joel 2:28] and perfect their Love in the kingdom of Love where Jesus finally rules, not on this earth ,but the righteous new earth :-

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

that is righteousness to Love, NO abuse by sin any more , on pain of a second death from which one is not resurrected before judgement day to free one from sin yet again and see that evil goes terribly wrong for everyone once God has taken away the billions of 'easy prey' ... saved at judgement day by works of Love AFTER death freed them from sin to live by Love in the Loving kingdom...

 

[Fascinated With God]

No.

Go learn what Conditional Immortality is before you attempt to argue against it.

OK. I just spent an hour and didn't learn anything more than what I had already gleaned from you. It took considerable effort to get you to address the topic of the soul and spirit, and I can understand why now, because attempting to explain something away is always an uphill battle. I looked at about a dozen sites on conditional immortality and it was all very repetitive, not an especially complex argument. I think the subject of the soul and the spirit is an extremely complex one, as demonstrated by the large number of words that they are translated into. So I don't think that an excessively simplistic explanation like conditional immortality goes very far in addressing the matter.

I never said the soul doesn't exist, I guess you know all about straw man arguments. Take what I don't say, change it into something else and then argue against what I didn't say at all. That is the definition of a strawman argument. You lost it.

So now you are denying that the you define the soul as nothing more than a synonym for life? You may not like how I characterize this purely synonymous definition, but you clearly have defined the soul as nothing but a synonym for a much more common word, which renders the would soul as having no independent meaning of it's own, does it not?

And I noticed that you made no objections to my characterization of how you define spirit, so I take it that that part of my summation is not to your dislike?

 

[Timothew]

OK. I just spent an hour and didn't learn anything more than what I had already gleaned from you. It took considerable effort to get you to address the topic of the soul and spirit, and I can understand why now, because attempting to explain something away is always an uphill battle. I looked at about a dozen sites on conditional immortality and it was all very repetitive, not an especially complex argument. I think the subject of the soul and the spirit is an extremely complex one, as demonstrated by the large number of words that they are translated into. So I don't think that an excessively simplistic explanation like conditional immortality goes very far in addressing the matter.

So now you are denying that the you define the soul as nothing more than a synonym for life? You may not like how I characterize this purely synonymous definition, but you clearly have defined the soul as nothing but a synonym for a much more common word, which renders the would soul as having no independent meaning of it's own, does it not?

And I noticed that you made no objections to my characterization of how you define spirit, so I take it that that part of my summation is not to your dislike?

Did you go here?
Welcome

I am not defining soul as merely a synonym for life.

I am not defining soul as the "inner you" that goes to play saxophone in an all girls cabaret when you die. Or whatever your version of heaven is.

I am using the word "soul", psyche or nepesh, as the bible uses it. Read Genesis in the Septuagint. You will get a real feel for how the greeks used the word psyche.

When the Titanic sank there were 1300 souls on board.

Of the 2,200 souls who were aboard the once mighty ship 868 were saved, and are en route to Boston of New York.
​

Please don't take my refusal to rebute your mischaracterization of how I use the word pneuma to mean I agree with you. It is just too exhausting to refute every error that you come up with.

 

[Fascinated With God]

This was part of a full statement. You had to pull it out of context to make it appear to be a non-sense statement.

To take something out of context means to delete the surrounding context, which is not the case, I included your entire message.

Okay, if that's what you feel you have to do. It just shows that you really have no real proof for what you believe.

How DARE I reply indepently to two adjacent sentences! What a dirty underhanded trick that is!

Go back and re-read my post until you understand it. Take your time and read slowly.

Aye yes, being condescending and belittling is so charming. It really proves the stength of your case!

 

[thesunisout]

Kinda confused about that...

Can someone who doesn't believe in Hell give me a simple list of reasons why?

People don't want to believe in hell for the same reasons they twist other scriptures in the bible, or throw it away altogether; they want to worship a God their flesh is comfortable with. They don't want to believe in the holy God revealed in scripture, so they replace Him with a milquetoast facsimile that approves of their carnal lifestyle. Because of the wickedness in their hearts, they often fall away and become deluded. They think they're right when the truth is that their sin has deceived them and their foolish hearts have been darkened:

Romans 1:18-21

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[Timothew]

To take something out of context means to delete the surrounding context, which is not the case, I included your entire message.

How DARE I reply indepently to two adjacent sentences! What a dirty underhanded trick that is!

Aye yes, being condescending and belittling is so charming. It really proves the stength of your case!

You have to admit that you deserved that, after all, you started it.

You almost always eschew any mention of the spirit and soul in your description, such as you have done here. Dealing with the existence of the spirit and soul seems to be a major problem for you. You go to great lengths to avoid any discussion of them. Saying that at death people die is not an explanation of anything. It is just a redundant statement, not any kind of meaningful elucidation.

You have no choice but to be redundant? That does not speak well for your case.

OK, the soul doesn't really exist, it is just a meaningless synonym for life, and the spirit is just an automated force, like plugging an appliance into a socket, it has no consciousness of it's own. Is that your argument?

You may be right that I should not have done to you what you did to me. But do you really have any right to object if I shove back?
I'm willing to be nice, but you should not demand that I "be nice" if you aren't willing to. You got what you deserved when you went below the belt.

 

[Timothew]

People don't want to believe in hell for the same reasons they twist other scriptures in the bible, or throw it away altogether; they want to worship a God their flesh is comfortable with. They don't want to believe in the holy God revealed in scripture, so they replace Him with a milquetoast facsimile that approves of their carnal lifestyle. Because of the wickedness in their hearts, they often fall away and become deluded. They think they're right when the truth is that their sin has deceived them and their foolish hearts have been darkened:

Romans 1:18-21

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

Those who do such things deserve death. Not eternal torture in hell-land.

 

[Fascinated With God]

I am not defining soul as merly a synonym for life.

So how are you defining soul as distinct from life? I see no sign of
it here.

I am not defining soul as the "inner you" that goes to play saxophone in an all girls cabaret when you die. Or whatever your version of heaven is.

Is this suppose to explain something, other than that you have contempt for belief in heaven too?

I am using the word "soul", psyche or nepesh, as the bible uses it. Read Genesis in the Septuagint. You will get a real feel for how the greeks used the word psyche.

You are not even remotely addressing the full Biblical usage of the words. Those are extremely complex words, nephesh is translated as more than 40 different words. In the face of such complexity your interpretation is astoundingly oversimplified.

When the Titanic sank there were 1300 souls on board.

Of the 2,200 souls who were aboard the once mighty ship 868 were saved, and are en route to Boston of New York.
​

In that context the word souls is clearly completely synonymous with lives. So how does this in any way prove that your definition of soul is something more than just a synonym of life? (It sounds like you are actually trying to prove my point rather than contradict me? )

Now I am not denying that the Biblical usage of the words soul and spirit are sometimes perfectly synonyomous with the word life, but this is clearly not even remotely the case all the time.

Please don't take my refusal to rebute your mischaracterization of how I use the word pneuma to mean I agree with you. It is just too exhausting to refute every error that you come up with.

Yes, I have seen how much you hate answering questions. Looking at all the conditional immortality sites I noticed that the word soul gets used a LOT more than the word spirit. So I can understand how you would want to focus on the word soul and ignore the word spirit. So I suppose my only option if I want to get an answer from you is to make the questions as specific as possible:

Do you think the spirit is conscious or unconscious?

 

[Fascinated With God]

You have to admit that you deserved that, after all, you started it.

These are all objective statements.

You almost always eschew any mention of the spirit and soul in your description, such as you have done here. Dealing with the existence of the spirit and soul seems to be a major problem for you. You go to great lengths to avoid any discussion of them. Saying that at death people die is not an explanation of anything. It is just a redundant statement, not any kind of meaningful elucidation.
​

You do evade discussing the issue of soul and spirit. We had to pull teeth to get you to do it, and you are still doing it, claiming that it is too exhausting for you to describe your view of the spirit.

You have no choice but to be redundant? That does not speak well for your case.
​

So my essentially just quoting you is a personal attack?

OK, the soul doesn't really exist, it is just a meaningless synonym for life, and the spirit is just an automated force, like plugging an appliance into a socket, it has no consciousness of it's own. Is that your argument?
​

In your last post you reaffirmed the position that soul is just a synonym for the word life. But even if it were totally wrong, how would a misunderstanding on my part constitute a personal attack on you?

You may be right that I should not have done to you what you did to me. But do you really have any right to object if I shove back?
I'm willing to be nice, but you should not demand that I "be nice" if you aren't willing to. You got what you deserved when you went below the belt.

You seem to think that normal human interaction is below the belt.





.

 

[strangertoo]

OK. I just spent an hour and didn't learn anything more

You might like to consider that learning from God directly might be a better method then, as Jesus recommends for anyone seeking the Truth... all it takes is the first step to get started :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

so simply stop sinning [the real essence of the meaning of water baptism] and God will baptise of His spirit to know all truth [John 16:13] as promised in the new covenant [Heb 8:10-11] ... then the teaching is 100% pure and you won't need the web either , or the bible , or any sinners in churches...
just yourself one-on-one with God , a time for absolute honesty on both sides that few are yet ready for ... but we know that death frees the rest from sin[Rom 6:7] , a slower route to God than grace for the few who now stop sinning by choice of Love over abuse by sin...

than what I had already gleaned from you.

'gleaning' is fine IF it leads to the above [the only solution in this life according to God] ... so it's usefulness depends not on words but on one's will to stop sinning and Love folks instead... and the scripture says how few have that will now ... but God only requires those few now for His Plan to work...
thus all those saved now have to not only face God alone first and repent even the sins they do not yet admit they have [which God will point out first in spirit baptism] but work for Jesus mostly alone often under threat of death for their whole life in this earth , hating their life for it can likely never be enough Love to help save more than one or two others in a lifetime... this is not the time of mass salvation but of mass religion of Satan -Rev 13:3-4

I spend every waking hour doing this and have done so for much of my life , I spend days months , even tears meditating on why I don't understand this or that aspect of scripture - but not for my sake , simply because most folks are misled by false renderings of scripture into lifetimes of slavery to the world made worse by faith in divided religious traditions that do not deliver spirit baptism, so are SEALED from saving anyone...

and yet the key is simple, all one needs to do to be taught by God Himself [Heb 8:10-11] is to STOP ABUSING ... stop sinning ... because God commands Love and all and any sin is abuse , not Love...

the fact is almost all folk want to sin because they have not seen or have not admitted to themselves the consequences of sin...

but it is equally true that sin is the ONLY means Satan has to STOP one being taught by God ...

so perhaps look at mass religions, all of them... and see who stops sinning in them, who takes that FIRST step...

a few 'mystics' do, and the saints of God ... that is all... it amounts to about one in three million alive today ... thus perhaps you see how the saints are alone when you come to realise the task of about two thousand alive at any one time is principally to find the next generation of saints amongst a sea of sinners , many hostile enough to kill one under false accusations of heresy ,etc... and whilst all saints hate life , they also Love all and have the ultimate companionship of God , and when they chance at times to meet , even deliberately on occasion, they have the companionship of Jesus... it is enough you see, but few are ready for this...
and that is OK, as the many are saved later, not now...

but perhaps you see it is a lifelong commitment, and one scarce sees much result except in oneself and a very few others down the years... an hour is not so significant usually then... being a saint one learns patience beyond death with everyone , even those who abuse and even kill one...

It took considerable effort to get you to address the topic of the soul and spirit,

I do not think so, I have addressed it many times already ,as you could see for instance by simply looking up my posts

So now you are denying that the you define the soul as nothing more than a synonym for life? You may not like how I characterize this purely synonymous definition, but you clearly have defined the soul as nothing but a synonym for a much more common word, which renders the would soul as having no independent meaning of it's own, does it not?

I have tried to show some of the scripture that uses the term 'soul' for the physical life of the body created in the body by the spirit , that the soul BEGINS with the spirit entering the body and ends at death, so corresponds with physical life :-

Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [Note: spirit]; and man became a living soul.

compare this to resurrection ... the spirit is the only immortal aspect of a man and carries all that is needed to recreate the SAME soul in a new viable body ... the spirit always returns to God, the soul cannot because it is physical, so ends [and its called death]

James 2:26 ... the body without the spirit is dead...

asking where does the soul go to is like asking where does physical life go to in death ... but equally one could ask where does it come from ... and the essence of the soul can be carried in the spirit,but never in the body...

and because of this apparent continuity of soul between death and resurrection , men sometimes speak in poetic fashion of the spirit as being the 'dead soul' [an oxymoron, but one can see both how it arises and indeed the wealth of possible false conclusions coming from it]

but the spirit is God's and isn't physical , it is not a 'thing' ... it is God's own spirit [and there is no other spirit with God]

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me

... spirit is not created, it is creator , soul is created by spirit and so ends, but can begin again ...

but folks like to think the soul goes somewhere in death and then comes out of there in resurrection... it is like a convenience of thought, a laziness,and only involves a virtual concept, hades/sheol, 'hell'

so now we have nested ideas, the spirit which is not physical gets labelled as a 'dead soul' which is regarded as physical so needs to go to a physical place so it can merge as a physical soul in resurrection... well clearly it's not really true , at death there is only the body which usually decays and the spirit which is God's [immortal, cannot be destroyed, it he means of creating the soul again, but the spirit is NOT physical and its not divided , and frankly it cannot 'move' either]

So perhaps you begin to see that because our words evolved from looking at the physical and naming the physical, that they do not apply well to the spirit... it is only a short step from seeing that to realising whay the truh of God is largely INEFFABLE ...if we have or use words for it very few would understand them anyway, most men live their whole lives as sinners never knowing the spirit, the God of Love of all men, the real Jesus]

And I noticed that you made no objections to my characterization of how you define spirit, so I take it that that part of my summation is not to your dislike?

perhaps I should explain that my only aim here is to show folks enough of the mistakes of modern mass religion that they realise the ONLY way to KNOW the Truth of God is to stop sinning so that God can TELL THEM HIMSELF... not me