Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[DrBubbaLove]

Well I tried to give a response, that it is all about God being Love, Just and Merciful but some just want to argue only about what "scriptures say".

 

[LutheranMafia]

Adding a little here, after reading these posts. It looks like a belief in something called 'soul sleep'. Can't remember what religion has this in it's tenets.

Seventh Day Adventists are the only Christians that think this.

When I referred to Tim's belief as "soul sleep" we had the first of many big blow-outs over the past two years. Looking back on it, that is the only blow-out where I think Tim had a point. He doesn't believe in soul sleep, he believes in annihilation.

Eventually we finally settled on "annihiliationism" to describe his point of view, which still bothers him to this day, because he is very envious of the fact that orthodoxy doesn't need a title for the traditional point of view. So he rebelled violently against all labels, which made things so cumbersome to discuss that eventually he had to reluctantly settle on a title, which is annihilationism.

 

[seeingeyes]

Well I tried to give a response, that it is all about God being Love, Just and Merciful but some just want to argue only about what "scriptures say".

Ok, good call. Let's get back on track.

It is difficult to say that God loves someone and also will allow/cause them to be tormented forever and also created them knowing that this would be the case in advance.

Those who believe in the now-classic view of hell will say that God is not just love, but is also just and holy.

Then the question becomes 'what is 'just' about creating someone (many someones) knowing that they will end up in hell for eternity?

Now one may launch into a treatise on the importance of 'free will' or one can just shrug and say, "God's will be done", but those who desire to chase down these answers land all over the theological spectrum. Some to Annihilationism, some to Universalism, some to a limit on God's foreknowledge, etc.

Praise God that we are not saved by how much we know.

 

[LutheranMafia]

You are the one who brought up atheists. Anyone who doesn't agree with your definition must be using an 'atheist' definition.

No, only someone who is using an atheistic definition is actually using an atheist's definition.

So yes, it is inflammatory. There's nothing 'objective' about it. It advances nothing.

It is only inflammatory and subjective if it clearly applies to you.

At any rate, this is all entirely off-topic, because the question was "why do some people think hell isn't real", not "why is Timothew so wrong".

How is talking about death off-topic to the subject of Hell? Is there some other way you know of to get to Hell without dying?

 

[LutheranMafia]

Ok, good call. Let's get back on track.

It is difficult to say that God loves someone and also will allow/cause them to be tormented forever and also created them knowing that this would be the case in advance.

Those who believe in the now-classic view of hell will say that God is not just love, but is also just and holy.

Then the question becomes 'what is 'just' about creating someone (many someones) knowing that they will end up in hell for eternity?

Now one may launch into a treatise on the importance of 'free will' or one can just shrug and say, "God's will be done", but those who desire to chase down these answers land all over the theological spectrum. Some to Annihilationism, some to Universalism, some to a limit on God's foreknowledge, etc.

Praise God that we are not saved by how much we know.

Actually I have a much stronger reaction to denial of an afterlife than I do to denial of Hell. Denying Hell I think is wrong, but no big deal. Denying an afterlife however seriously undercuts the Good News of the Gospels.

However, denial of Hell and denial of an afterlife seems to go hand-in-hand. So I am sort of drawn in through a side-door.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Ok, good call. Let's get back on track.

It is difficult to say that God loves someone and also will allow/cause them to be tormented forever and also created them knowing that this would be the case in advance.

Those who believe in the now-classic view of hell will say that God is not just love, but is also just and holy.

Then the question becomes 'what is 'just' about creating someone (many someones) knowing that they will end up in hell for eternity?

Now one may launch into a treatise on the importance of 'free will' or one can just shrug and say, "God's will be done", but those who desire to chase down these answers land all over the theological spectrum. Some to Annihilationism, some to Universalism, some to a limit on God's foreknowledge, etc.

Praise God that we are not saved by how much we know.

Well, I obviously do not agree with the desires of others to chase down these answers. I accept the ones orthodoxy has given through the ages. While certainly some of those answers may not be satisfying or easy or very palatable to me, I do not need to go "chasing" answers if I first trust and accept as true the ones given to us through the ages. I only need to search if I first assume they could be wrong.

And if I would question that then certainly my desire to have a more satisfying answer (to suit me) or an easier one for me to accept or one that is easier on all my sensibilities, then the notion that there is a problem with the orthodox view of Hell and God being Just, Love and Mercy would indeed be appealing to me.

However, if I set my desires, feelings and sensibilites aside and accept first that there is no problem with there being eternal suffering and having God be Just, Loving and Merciful then I never need go searching for "scriptures to say" something that solves a "problem" God does not have.

Which is why I keep saying this discussion should start with whether or not God has a problem with suffering.

 

[seeingeyes]

Well, I obviously do not agree with the desires of others to chase down these answers. I accept the ones orthodoxy has given through the ages. While certainly some of those answers may not be satisfying or easy or very palatable to me, I do not need to go "chasing" answers if I first trust and accept as true the ones given to us through the ages. I only need to search if I first assume they could be wrong.

And if I would question that then certainly my desire to have a more satisfying answer (to suit me) or an easier one for me to accept or one that is easier on all my sensibilities, then the notion that there is a problem with the orthodox view of Hell and God being Just, Love and Mercy would indeed be appealing to me.

However, if I set my desires, feelings and sensibilites aside and accept first that there is no problem with there being eternal suffering and having God be Just, Loving and Merciful then I never need go searching for "scriptures to say" something that solves a "problem" God does not have.

Which is why I keep saying this discussion should start with whether or not God has a problem with suffering.

What I find interesting is just how little 'orthodoxy' has to say on the matter one way or the other. The precise topography of hell is not discussed in the creeds. Perhaps it's not that important?

 

[LutheranMafia]

The Bible is also painfully vauge on the distinction between soul and spirit. The Jews just didn't give that much thought to the afterlife. Primarily this is because Jews actually believe in reincarnation. It is a little known fact, but it is responsible for the frequent guessing amongs NT Jews that Jesus might be the reincarnation of Elijah. If you believe in reincarnation there is little point to focusing on punishment or reward in an afterlife, because the punishment or reward will all come in the next lifetime, not inbetween lifetimes.

 

[gasman64]

How about reading Matthew 25?

Seriously, I get tired of this run around.

Not that it really matters, but if you look at the Catholic version, you will see a bit more conviction in the words.
NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Matthew 25

You get tired? Imagine how we feel when we are submitted to people like you over and over again who swear a fantasy is real and declare a lie to be true. We have ALL read Matt 25 and it is clear that you have no idea at all what it is referring to. This same conversation is in this same thread from earlier postings and so is the answer to what Matt 25 is REALLY about. Don't you read the thread first before posting? There is no basis in scripture for hell. The word does not even appear in the hebrew or greek scriptures. Yet you seem to think that our reading a catholic translation will suddenly make it so? You are the one who is wasting our time. You can be a real scholar or you can pretend to be one. You can't do both.

 

[usexpat97]

I don't think there is much evidence that OT Jews believed in reincarnation. Reincarnation is primarily Kaballah, which didn't come until long after the NT; and it definitely falls in the category of the Jews perverting the Law with the paganistic beliefs of their surrounding peoples (which is expressly forbidden in OT).

I don't think I subscribe to the belief that Jews believed anybody was Elijah reincarnated, because Elijah never died.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

What I find interesting is just how little 'orthodoxy' has to say on the matter one way or the other. The precise topography of hell is not discussed in the creeds. Perhaps it's not that important?

Agreed, like the Church on Purgatory there is not a lot of detail. How, where, by what means...etc are not detailed but it is quite clear in orthodoxy that damnation is a permanent condition of suffering without end. Much more than that becomes speculative.

 

[Timothew]

You know, I have to agree with LutheranMafia and DrBL, you do seem somewhat evasive on the issue, Timothew. It sounds to me like you are trying to assert that the first death destroys the soul, but are dancing around the issue in an inconsistent manner.

Don't be fooled by them. I stated exactly what I believe. They will twist anything. I stated that at death, people die. People remain dead until Jesus returns at Judgement Day. Then they are resurrected to life. They are judged and either given eternal life or sent to their second death. This is very straight forward. They are trying to add confusion to this.
Everytime I told them this, they said that I was avoiding the question. I explained exactly what happens. They just don't like the answer.
This is not evasive at all.

 

[Timothew]

Well I tried to give a response, that it is all about God being Love, Just and Merciful but some just want to argue only about what "scriptures say".

What the "scriptures say" matters to some of us. You, of course, are told what you are required to believe. We believe God's Word.

 

[david14433]

Does not compute. Finite crimes does not mathematically compute to an infinite punishment. It would not be just or righteous.

It's mathematically impossible for hell to be forever. The universe will balance it all out. It has it's own way of balancing evil that is right and just.

You the soul, is just a conglomeration of energy in the spirit world, and so if you go to some lower hell realms in our multiverse we are living in then the chances of you getting decapitated and torn to shred's is high. Thus YOU/soul is the conglomeration of evolutionary energy that makes you you). In other words you are not eternal unless you can stay intact. But even if you can't stay intact in a hell. Once your karmic debt is paid then you will transition back to the upper realms of our multiverse. But it will probably be a different you in different pieces and different part of our multiverse. So in that sense your soul may not be eternal if you sin through many lives and then end up in hell. But you are eternal in the spirit sense. Sense you can only transition and change through nature. Nothing is permanent. One more note to prove my point. So if you are split in half here on earth. Then you will be split in half in the afterlife. No God is going to put you back together unless your a prophet or someone special.


Why hell can't be forever for eternities.

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/hope-beyond-hell-10-eternity-a/

biblical studies: The Greek Word Aiõn


biblical studies: Eon As Indefinite Duration, Part One


biblical studies: Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Two


biblical studies: Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three




Further study
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 14 - "We Rely on the Living God"


Peace.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

What the "scriptures say" matters to some of us. You, of course, are told what you are required to believe. We believe God's Word.

And some believe scripture tells them to do and say all sorts of things. None of us arrived at that on our own. So I would say it is important to understand and know who is telling us what scripture means. Claiming to have each read it ourselves and independently arrived at some conclusion is not only not Bibilical, it does not make sense given what we know of how people learn or even how Jesus indicated He wanted people taught.

So rather than argue how what each of us say "scripture says" and mock each others faiths, I think it is still more productive to discuss the ideas underlying our beliefs.

You have repeatedly claimed the dead are "just dead" and remain that way until resurrection. Yet you refuse to explain how that state is ANY DIFFERENT from the state of the damned AFTER Judgment. In fact in all our discussion the ONLY difference that EVER came out was that God will never remake the damned after Judgment. So essentially as LutheranMafia basically suggested, this view has everyone basically damned when we die, recreated and then some of us damned again forever. Until one explains how the these two states are different, I see great difficulty in saying there is any difference. Not to mention that any notion of a needing or having a soul seems rather extraneous in a construct which says the "dead are just dead", which again makes any talk of an afterlife pointless because the only thing God can do is remake us, not resurrect.

I say remake/recreated, because there can be no resurrection without each of us having an unique human soul that make us who we are and differentiates each from everyone else. That soul would have to transcend death to make afterlife meaningful because it is the only thing that preserves an identity for each of us. Certainly God could remake each of us as many times as He likes, but how that person is still me or why this new recreated me deserve to be Judged for my life escapes logic. One could speak of a spirit that enlivens the body, but if the dead are just dead, then obviously any such spirit one imagines is absent.

Indeed some explain that "spirit" is like a "force" which returns to God. Well that is nice, but hardly distinguishes Christianity from many other eastern religions or some universal naturalism. Nor does it explain how a new recreated me getting a "life force" from God again for Judgment is indeed really me. Conversely one could argue (let me be clear Timothew has not) that the human soul sleeps. At least this view preserves a unique identity for each individual which can then be "awakened" and "resurrected".

So even if one stands on the play ground mound and shouts repeatedly this is what scripture says, I think the ideas and thoughts behind what one claims scripture says are important. Especially when tying everything all together. If all one can do is repeat the claim that this is what "scripture says" and poke fun at others, then either tying everything together is not possible in the view being defended or one has never really thought it through.

 

[doc8645]

WOW! At the risk of being accused of "heresy", it sure seems Blasphemous to contradict the Gospet (good news) word of God! Jesus extols us to keep the faith, endure, resist evil and reassures us that He prepares a place for us and when He comes back His reward is with Him (Eternal life), and yet He gives immortality to sinners too?

Down here people go to prison for various horrendous crimes, yet after a period of time we feel they've been punished enough and parole them, sooo those believing in "eternal punishing" would equate us as being more just and merciful than God? OXYMORON= merciful & just/ eternal suffering. I'm sorry, thats not the God I got in my Bible.

As far as what happens when you die, I don't know about the soul and spirit, except Spirit means "breath" and it goes back to God who gave it. But DEATH- Jn.11:11-15 "......our friend Lazarus sleeps.....then Jesus said to them plainly, Lazarus is dead......". Rom.6:23 " for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is Eternal Life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

And I don't see the problem with Mt. 25 either! It talks about everlasting fire, and everlasting punishment, but NOWHERE does it mention everlasting PUNISHING! And the only mention of eternal is life. And Rev.20:14 "then death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the Second death, which begs the question if hades (hell) was thrown into the lake of fire, how can hell be a place of torment if its gone? Its not a whim, its what Jesus said!

doc8645

 

[seeingeyes]

Agreed, like the Church on Purgatory there is not a lot of detail. How, where, by what means...etc are not detailed but it is quite clear in orthodoxy that damnation is a permanent condition of suffering without end. Much more than that becomes speculative.

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but isn't it the creeds that establish 'orthodoxy'? A very widely-held view cannot be considered 'orthodox' (small 'o') simply because it is widely-held.

Though perhaps that is the 'protest' in my 'protestantism' rearing it's head.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Forgive me if I am misunderstanding, but isn't it the creeds that establish 'orthodoxy'? A very widely-held view cannot be considered 'orthodox' (small 'o') simply because it is widely-held.

Though perhaps that is the 'protest' in my 'protestantism' rearing it's head.

No, I would not say the Creeds establish orthodoxy, though for certain points Creeds do help establish boundaries (Trinity, Nature of God, who Jesus is...etc. On Hell the Creeds are pretty much silent.

In a very general sense I was conveying that the orthodox view of Hell is one of suffering which never ends and yes one could also call that tradition view and also a widely held view. Orthodox in this sense is simply a set of commonly held beliefs, which are of course and naturally held to be true. It is in that sense which generally the managers of this forum would restrict discussion of non-orthodox views of Hell to the UT part of the forums.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

WOW! At the risk of being accused of "heresy", it sure seems Blasphemous to contradict the Gospet (good news) word of God! Jesus extols us to keep the faith, endure, resist evil and reassures us that He prepares a place for us and when He comes back His reward is with Him (Eternal life), and yet He gives immortality to sinners too?

I guess that would be a point if the orthodox view was the "reward" of the damned was Heaven. It is not, so the notion that "eternal life" with HIm is equal to eternity in Hell is non-starter.

Down here people go to prison for various horrendous crimes, yet after a period of time we feel they've been punished enough and parole them, sooo those believing in "eternal punishing" would equate us as being more just and merciful than God? OXYMORON= merciful & just/ eternal suffering. I'm sorry, thats not the God I got in my Bible.

Actually even "down here" we have punishments that are permanent. A life sentence that is not paroled and a death sentence are the "down here" equivalents of an eternal separation from God in Hell. Those punishments represent a need and justification for their being people who deserve to be permanently separated from the rest of us. So we are not "more just and merciful" than God if we believe in an eternal Hell. In fact in the OT we such sentences endorsed by God Himself.

As far as what happens when you die, I don't know about the soul and spirit, except Spirit means "breath" and it goes back to God who gave it. But DEATH- Jn.11:11-15 "......our friend Lazarus sleeps.....then Jesus said to them plainly, Lazarus is dead......". Rom.6:23 " for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is Eternal Life in Christ Jesus our Lord".

And I don't see the problem with Mt. 25 either! It talks about everlasting fire, and everlasting punishment, but NOWHERE does it mention everlasting PUNISHING! And the only mention of eternal is life. And Rev.20:14 "then death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the Second death, which begs the question if hades (hell) was thrown into the lake of fire, how can hell be a place of torment if its gone? Its not a whim, its what Jesus said!

doc8645

How can it represent? Simple. Hell and lake of fire, like death are concepts of something and perhaps not a "thing" at all. Concepts which are not clearly defined in scripture except to say it does not sound pleasant and it represents a separation of people from God and also from those with God (in Heaven).

Even if both Hell and lake of fire represent something physical, the fact one is thrown into the other could simply represent that every being in "Hell" (whatever/wherever that is) is thereafter in another place (Lake of fire -whatever/whereever that is). Regardless of what or where those places are, it is clear it represents a permanent separation from God that the Glorified do not have. Death being thrown in also can be understood to mean that for the human race, there are no more transitions to be experienced and the state of everone (in Hell and in Heaven) from that point on remains unchanged.

Am just saying it is not like the orthodox view creates a "problem" for God with either Mercy or Justice or Love.

 

[doc8645]

Drbubbalove;
Yes, I totally agree with your statement of " it represents a total separation from God", but sorry, I'm confused about your theories on hell, lake of fire, death, physical, non-physical, or maybe it was on a previous post and I missed it.

I guess the puzzling point is the statement " hell, lake of fire, death are concepts and not a 'thing'". And yes, I agree its (whatever it is) a permanent separation from God, but I guess where we differ is your thinking is something of a continuation and I believe a total finale in destruction. If I read it right.

doc8645