Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[Timothew]

Ah yes, I am ridiculous, but you are not sneering at me, I am supposedly sneering at you. Such hypocrisy.

It's not hypocrisy unless I actually claim that I am not sneering at you. I never said I wasn't sneering at you. I never said I was either. That would be rude.

 

[Timothew]

Unlike Timothew, I am not relying on the dictionary for theological concepts. I know of no dictionary that takes any theological stance on death.

I know what death means, and it doesn't mean "continue to live forever". I just use the dictionary to try to get you to understand what death means.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Would a bible verse work, or does it have to be from an atheist's dictionary?

Sneering won't help your case, Tim.

How about Matthew 10:28?
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This clearly states that the soul is not destroyed in the first death, which completely contradicts your whole case, as FWG said. You never answered his question, what happens to the soul after the first death, since Matthew 10:28 makes it clear that people cannot destroy the soul by killing someone in the first death?

Also, this says nothing about the destruction of the spirit at all, in either death. But we've been over this countless times before. You don't care about taking all the details into account, you really don't care what the truth is, you just want to win the argument.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

No Norah,
That is not the reason that I don't believe in eternal torture in Hell. A plain reading of scripture shows that the result of sin is death, not eternal torture in hell. Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Those who believe in Jesus Christ receive eternal life and those who do not believe do not receive eternal life. Those who reject Jesus Christ will perish and those who do not reject Jesus Christ will not perish.
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life."

This is what the Scriptures say, and I do not believe in eternal torture in hell because I believe what the scriptures say.

Welcome back from a self proclaimed excile. Appears you have had a change of heart.

We have been over this ground before. What the "scriptures says" is debated and we agree to disagree. My post to Nora goes to why people would look to scripture to find an answer they wish to find in the first place.

I still maintain if people did not think God has a problem with suffering, especially eternal suffering then there would be no need to seek justification in "what scripture says" to solve the imagined problem for God.

 

[Timothew]

Sneering won't help your case, Tim.

This clearly states that the soul is not destroyed in the first death, which completely contradicts your whole case, as FWG said. You never answered his question, what happens to the spirit after the first death, since Matthew 10:28 makes it clear that people cannot destroy the soul by killing someone in the first death?

I did answer his question. Both body and soul are destroyed in the second death. Just as Jesus said, and I agree with him.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by seeingeyes

Heathen dictionary! For shame! Don't you know athiests use those?! Unclean!
​

It starts to get ridiculous, doesn't it?

I also drink the same water that atheists drink and breathe the same air.

I would think that also....

Matthew 18:17 `And if he may not hear them, say [it] to the assembly,
and if also the assembly he may not hear, let him be to thee as the heathen man and the tax-gatherer.

 

[Timothew]

Welcome back from a self proclaimed excile. Appears you have had a change of heart.

We have been over this ground before. What the "scriptures says" is debated and we agree to disagree. My post to Nora goes to why people would look to scripture to find an answer they wish to find in the first place.

I still maintain if people did not think God has a problem with suffering, especially eternal suffering then there would be no need to seek justification in "what scripture says" to solve the imagined problem for God.

I'm just saying what scriptures say. The wages of sin is death. People perish or they have eternal life. They do not have both.

 

[LutheranMafia]

It's not hypocrisy unless I actually claim that I am not sneering at you. I never said I wasn't sneering at you. I never said I was either. That would be rude.

If you are honest with yourself you will admit that you sneer at me far more than I sneer at you. You want to claim that objective arguments are sneering because that is the only why you have of dismissing them, but that is a polemic technique rather than an attempt at getting at the truth.

 

[LutheranMafia]

I did answer his question. Both body and soul are destroyed in the second death. Just as Jesus said, and I agree with him.

Are you intentionally trying to be deceptive? The question was about the first death, not the second death. Can you read? You've been asked this same question repeatedly. Or are you just trying to twist out of an uncomfortable question like a shifty politician?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

I'm just saying what scriptures say. The wages of sin is death. People perish or they have eternal life. They do not have both.

As I said, simply claiming scripture says something to justify holding one's beliefs about hell does not address the reason one thinks it must be so. This is especially true when the bulk of all Christians from the beginning would disagree with this claim about "what scriptures say".

So rather than continue making yes it does, no it does not taunts against one another about "what scripture says", I still prefer to address the root cause for the disagreement, which is the imagined problem God has with suffering and especially eternal suffering.

 

[Timothew]

Are you intentionally trying to be deceptive? The question was about the first death, not the second death. Can you read? You've been asked this same question repeatedly. Or are you just trying to twist out of an uncomfortable question like a shifty politician?

The first death is death, where the person is dead until he is resurrected by Jesus Christ at his return. I told him that. The destruction of the body and soul occurs at the second death. I told him that. It is only in your imagination that I am acting like a shifty polititian. I answered his question, you didn't like it. Oh well. Then you insulted me.

 

[Timothew]

As I said, simply claiming scripture says something to justify holding one's beliefs about hell does not address the reason one thinks it must be so. This is especially true when the bulk of all Christians from the beginning would disagree with this claim about "what scriptures say".

So rather than continue making yes it does, no it does not taunts against one another about "what scripture says", I still prefer to address the root cause for the disagreement, which is the imagined problem God has with suffering and especially eternal suffering.

Well, then you got the "root cause" wrong, in my case.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Are you intentionally trying to be deceptive? The question was about the first death, not the second death. Can you read? You've been asked this same question repeatedly. Or are you just trying to twist out of an uncomfortable question like a shifty politician?

Good luck getting an answer.

I tried some time back and the best I could do is get a response describing the afterlife before Judgment which really left me with seeing no discernable difference between that state and the state described as "annihilation" after Judgment. However, when I stated that the two states were equally "non-existent" I was accused of falsely portraying the view of another.

I agree with your assessment that even if not an outright denial of the existence of a human soul, this view essentially makes the soul/spirit meaningless and unessential aspect of Christianity, and in that aspect no different than the atheist saying when die, we are just dead. Which is pretty much the response I got when asked to explain the afterlife prior to resurrection for Judgment.

Have asked repeatedly for an explanation of how the states (before resurrection for Judgment and after being thrown in Hell) WERE NOT equal and never got an answer. I doubt one is forthcoming here.

 

[LutheranMafia]

The first death is death, where the person is dead until he is resurrected by Jesus Christ at his return. I told him that.

You still haven't answered the question of what happens to the soul and spirit after the first death?

The destruction of the body and soul occurs at the second death. I told him that. It is only in your imagination that I am acting like a shifty polititian. I answered his question, you didn't like it. Oh well. Then you insulted me.

Alright, I apologize if you felt insulted, but you are still evading the question. I can only surmise that you don't have an answer. What else do you expect me to think?

 

[seeingeyes]

So you get your theology from a dictionary? No wonder you're theology is so insightful!

No, but I do get words from there, because words have meanings. Wouldn't life be strange indeed if Christians had to make all new meanings for all the words they use just to avoid 'athiest' meanings? It's a strange argument that brings nothing to the discussion.

We are not Christians because we have adopted a brand new definition of 'death', we are Christians because we have been made alive in Christ.

 

[Timothew]

Good luck getting an answer.

I gave an answer. I answered the question. Why do you say "good luck getting an answer as if he had not gotten an answer?

Do you believe the dead are alive after they are dead? Why do you believe this? Do you eat with dead people? More importantly, do they eat with you? Do they talk with you? Do they dance? Do they sing? Can they mow my lawn? do they wash dishes? Do they watch TV? Can they drive my car? Do they breathe?

At death, people are dead. They remain dead until Jesus Christ returns to resurrect them. Then they are alive. Then they are judged and they either go to eternal life or the second death. I'm sorry if you don't like this answer. But this answer it not "shifty" at all.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Well, then you got the "root cause" wrong, in my case.

Ok, so you never in your lifetime believed in the orthodox view of Hell. It is hard to keep track of al the varied beliefs and stories here. I thought your belief in this had changed, which BTW is not an uncommon story in UT. My bad.

Am pretty certain however that you have defended the belief using the Justice, Love and Mercy aspect of the discussion, which is exactly what I am talking about.

I also tend to strongly doubt anyone claiming to have just arrived at something all on their lonesome reading "what scripture says". They either heard or read it first, getting the idea from someone else. The fact the scripture then "says" for them what they want it to say to support that belief is secondary. So the roots of this whole debate do in fact go back to just what I said: God being Just, Love and Mercy.

 

[LutheranMafia]

Good luck getting an answer.

I tried some time back and the best I could do is get a response describing the afterlife before Judgment which really left me with seeing no discernable difference between that state and the state described as "annihilation" after Judgment. However, when I stated that the two states were equally "non-existent" I was accused of falsely portraying the view of another.

I agree with your assessment that even if not an outright denial of the existence of a human soul, this view essentially makes the soul/spirit meaningless and unessential aspect of Christianity, and in that aspect no different than the atheist saying when die, we are just dead. Which is pretty much the response I got when asked to explain the afterlife prior to resurrection for Judgment.

Have asked repeatedly for an explanation of how the states (before resurrection for Judgment and after being thrown in Hell) WERE NOT equal and never got an answer. I doubt one is forthcoming here.

Yeah, I don't think he is going to answer about what he thinks happens to the soul and spirit after the first death either. He has put too much effort into avoiding the question at all costs to give in now.

 

[Timothew]

You still haven't answered the question of what happens to the soul and spirit after the first death?

Alright, I apologize if you felt insulted, but you are still evading the question. I can only surmise that you don't have an answer. What else do you expect me to think?

I have not evaded any question. When a person dies, they are dead. They are a dead soul. Their spirit is dead. They are dead. They are a dead person. I've said this over and over and over. I haven't evaded any question. You keep saying this stuff, I think that you are hoping that I will say you are lying so you can report me. The truth is that I have been answering this question every time you've been asking it. When a person dies, they remain dead until Jesus Christ returns to resurrect them. Then they are alive. Then they are judged and they either go to eternal life or the second death. I'm sorry if you don't like this answer. But this answer is not "shifty" at all.

 

[SuziTiri]

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!