PEANUT GALLERY-FORMAL DEBATE-Sabbath for Christians; Obligation or Not?

[bugkiller]

In the following quote I've inserted some words in red text to voice objections to the patently absurd conclusions that the author of the quote has leapt to. The red text is therefore mine and must not be confused with what was originally written in the post from which the quote is taken.
It is irrelevant for the reason that I previously stated, namely, it does nothing to alleviate the 48 hour Sabbath problem you face as a Seventh Day Adventist.

What does it matter if a Roman after Julius Caesar's time had a seven day week? Before that time he had months and the ides of the month. What would it matter if a Persian adopted a seven day week after coming into contact with the Jews? And what would it matter if the lands that Alexander the Great conquered had some knowledge of Jewish weeks? It does nothing but establish that Jewish religion and culture influenced some of the surrounding cultures in the matter of weeks. China had no seven day week with a Sabbath, nor did Russia, nor the Celts in Scotland or Ireland, nor the native Americans in North and South America. You are grasping for straws.

Now how about returning to the issues that I raised in the post that you've been fighting for these past couple of days? Answer the points raised,

You referred to the Encyclopaedia Britannica as authority for an unbroken chain of seven day weeks from 'time immemorial' to today. We ought to de-construct your claim a little. Let's see what it means and what implications it has:

1. The expression "Time immemorial" has a specific meaning in legal/scholarly circles. That meaning is "In English law and its derivatives, time immemorial means the same as time out of mind, "a time before legal history and beyond legal memory." In 1275, by the first Statute of Westminster, the time of memory was limited to the reign of Richard I (Richard the Lionheart), beginning 6 July 1189, the date of the King's accession."
2. Given what is said in point 1 above the Encyclopaedia reference is not claiming that the seven day week goes back to creation-week, thus even your authoritative source is not affirming SDA contentions about the continuity of the seven day cycle.
3. Ancient Israel occupied one small region of the globe, the strip of land nowadays referred to as Palestine and currently occupied by the nations of Israel and the Palestinian Authority. This meant that for ancient Israel there were no time zones and that means that they never gave a moments thought to what would be the Sabbath day in New Zealand or on Hawaii.
4. Today Christians can be found living at every longitude and in every time zone. This means that a Christian living on one of the Hawaiian Islands and a Christian living in New Zealand will see the same sunset but will think it falls on two completely different days; specifically the Hawaiian will think it is Friday sunset and the New Zealander will think it is Saturday sunset. So in effect Seventh day observers have a 48 hour Sabbath and not a single day that could be identified with the memorial of the exact day on which God rested.
5. Since we have no firm evidence that the same seven day cycle has been maintained unbroken from when Adam was created until today we can have no firm confidence that Saturday in the USA is the Sabbath day.
6. We also have no solid and conclusive evidence that the seventh day mentioned in Moses time is the same day as the seventh day identified on a modern calendar. There is no sufficient evidence that the cycle has been unbroken from Moses day until today.

Okay, so you say that the above is a straw man argument, and I say it is a substantial argument that strikes deep into the claims of SDAs about the nature of Saturday and the practicality Saturday observance.


PS: Sunday in New Zealand and Australia corresponds pretty closely to Saturday in the western USA; does that mean that Sunday mass attendance in Australia, for example, is Sabbath observance?

PPS: Astronomy will not tell you which day is Saturday. The days of the week have no special astronomical significance and do not follow any stellar or planetary cycle. A day, as such, is related to Earth's rotation on its axis, but Saturday has no special rotational privilege.
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To anybody reading this thread I say this, if the seventh day is special and holy, and if the seventh day lasts about twenty four hours as other days do then how can the Sabbath day in Hawaii be twenty four hours later than it is in New Zealand? If the Seventh day is really just the seventh in a cycle of seven days of the week then why do our SDA interlocutors argue so fiercely in favour of Saturday as the Seventh day when we could just as well make a case for Sunday or Monday or any other day in the week as the seventh in a cycle starting six days earlier? In all honesty this whole seventh day is Saturday and hence Saturday is the one and only Sabbath that God blessed and no other day has any such blessing etcetera etcetera is just hooey.

Well stated!! And good post!!

bugkiller

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks for that clarification.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

New post up!

 

[bugkiller]

New post up.

bugkiller

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think that maybe this thread has lost its charm for our SDA brethren.

 

[bugkiller]

nm

bugkiller

 

[MoreCoffee]

Scripture and the physical sciences mount a powerful case against SDA Sabbatarianism.

 

[from scratch]

I think that maybe this thread has lost its charm for our SDA brethren.

I wonder why? Could it be because .... well they can not refute nor defend their position in light of full Scripture?


If they had the upper hand they would be here in full force. The major benefit of the formal debate is they can not heckle and derail.


Their non participation here causes me to think they concede.

Hey bugkiller seems to be living upto his name and reputation given to him by the opposition.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do you think that folk are jealous of my cool eyebrows?

 

[from scratch]

Do you think that folk are jealous of my cool eyebrows?

Maybe it is the fresh snow white hair.

 

[BobRyan]

Scripture and the physical sciences mount a powerful case against SDA Sabbatarianism.

No doubt belief in evolutionism is a strong competitor to the religion we find in the Bible. No question about it. But that would be another thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes it would be, so why did you bring it up?

The physical sciences that help to mould a case against SDA claims for the seventh 24-hour day are geography & astronomy which give us the knowledge that the earth is a globe with time zones.

 

[bugkiller]

New post is up. Infact for those who missed it there are 2 new posts up.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

For those who are interested my closing post is up. And now I am free to debate the issue here. I will revisit the pages of this thread.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

It would be very interesting to see such a list of what words appear as the first day of the week in other languages. Any one have such a list?

bugkiller

 

[MoreCoffee]

No one answered the case against a 24-hour 7th day that is blessed and that can be observed in both Hawaii and New Zealand. Remembering that when it is the 7th day in New Zealand it is the 6th day in Hawaii and when it is the 7th day in Hawaii it is the 1st day in New Zealand.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

No one answered the case against a 24-hour 7th day that is blessed and that can be observed in both Hawaii and New Zealand. Remembering that when it is the 7th day in New Zealand it is the 6th day in Hawaii and when it is the 7th day in Hawaii it is the 1st day in New Zealand.

Off topic it may be, but such would also be a good argument against "The Flat Earth Society " as well!

 

[bugkiller]

Did God intend for the Isrealite to travel the world to evangelize? If not the truth is for a localized law. It seems to me there are other problems as well. No one could live far from the equator without fire for warmth on the sabbath or for light where it is dark for a long period of time.

bugkiller

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by MoreCoffee No one answered the case against a 24-hour 7th day that is blessed and that can be observed in both Hawaii and New Zealand. Remembering that when it is the 7th day in New Zealand it is the 6th day in Hawaii and when it is the 7th day in Hawaii it is the 1st day in New Zealand.

Off topic it may be, but such would also be a good argument against "The Flat Earth Society " as well!

I can view Columbus having a flat globe of the earth and pondering on it, before taking his famous voyage to America

...........

 

[MoreCoffee]

Did God intend for the Isrealite to travel the world to evangelize? If not the truth is for a localized law. It seems to me there are other problems as well. No one could live far from the equator without fire for warmth on the sabbath or for light where it is dark for a long period of time.

bugkiller

An Antarctican day, from sunset to sunset lasts a year at the south pole. I guess the 7th day sabbath in Antarctica would be particularly arduous to observe.