PEANUT GALLERY-FORMAL DEBATE-Sabbath for Christians; Obligation or Not?

[MoreCoffee]

It has been said "even Encyclopaedia Britannica verifies that fact" as if Encyclopaedia Britannica was some kind of authority! hah, I say! Pfffft to that!

 

[usexpat97]

It is pure silliness for you to say that we cannot keep the Sabbath day holy in 2012. God himself has preserved the 7 day week, even Encyclopedia Britannica verifies that fact.

The Encyclopedia Britannica states “the week is a period of seven days, having no reference whatever to the celestial motions--a circumstance to which it owes its unalterable uniformity... It has been employed from time immemorial in almost all eastern countries.”

This is screwed up on so many levels I don't know where to start. But I'll try....


First, never at any time did I ever say we cannot honor the Sabbath in 2012. You are the one who said that--not me. Second, it escapes me how you quote the Encyclopedia Brittanica as if that were the Word of God; this is in addition to the pagan Roman calendar, as you already have done. Third, why do you think there is a 7-day in the first place? Because we are honoring the Sabbath! We've been doing it the entire time and that's why there are 7-day weeks. You said it yourself: there is no celestial phenomenon dictating 7-day weeks. The only reason they are is because we have been observing it. Thus far the only sources you have given which show Saturday is "the" Sabbath are the Encyclopedia Britannica and the pagan Roman calendar.

This is like tithing our first 10%. I guess we're supposed to come to church with our earnings in cash, and we all need to get the SDA's approval as to which dollar bills are the "first" ones.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Oh that 'first 10%' as the tithe is just to make sure it is before tax! it's a simple money grab.

 

[bugkiller]

Sorry ain't a supposed to post here yet.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Sorry ain't a supposed to post here yet.


bugkiller

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Link to the formal debate: Sabbath for Christians; Obligation or Not?

Not.....


BTW

 

[TruthWave7]

If as you say, "It is pure silliness for you to say that we cannot keep the Sabbath day holy in 2012." why don't you and your denomination do so then? You have reinvented the Sabbath after your own image and set it up on your altar and are bowing low in worship of it.

We do keep the Sabbath day holy according to the 4th Commandment. Your statement is framed to make it appear nobody can keep the Sabbath in modern times. That shows a lack of faith on your part, because all the 10 Commandments were made for all time and would never change or be done away with, therefore we in modern times we can keep the Sabbath day holy. Your problem is that you have a spirit of unbelief and don't even try to keep the Sabbath day holy. Why would God create a Commandment that He knew mankind could not keep? Our God is not a God of that nature. When we put forth our best efforts He makes up the difference, but if you don't even try to obey, that is a spirit of unbelief, which is sin.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We do keep the Sabbath day holy according to the 4th Commandment. Your statement is framed to make it appear nobody can keep the Sabbath in modern times. That shows a lack of faith on your part, because all the 10 Commandments were made for all time and would never change or be done away with, therefore we in modern times can keep the Sabbath day holy. Your problem is that you have a spirit of unbelief and don't even try to keep the Sabbath day holy. Why would create a Commandment that He knew mankind could not keep? Our God is not a God of that nature. When we put forth our best efforts He makes up the difference, but if you don't even try to obey, that is a spirit of unbelief, which is sin.

I am guessing here, but I think that bbbb is referring to the practical impossibility of keeping Sabbath on a spherical planet when your "Sabbath keepers" are spread around the globe. Some will obviously be working while those resident in Palestine & Israel will be Sabbath keeping. And when the SDAs in Palestine & Israel are working some SDAs will be Sabbath keeping. Obviously the day that is to be kept holy is not a 24 hour day in Palestine if it has to be spread around the whole globe.

 

[TruthWave7]

I am guessing here, but I think that bbbb is referring to the practical impossibility of keeping Sabbath on a spherical planet when your "Sabbath keepers" are spread around the globe. Some will obviously be working while those resident in Palestine & Israel will be Sabbath keeping. And when the SDAs in Palestine & Israel are working some SDAs will be Sabbath keeping. Obviously the day that is to be kept holy is not a 24 hour day in Palestine if it has to be spread around the whole globe.

Again you present a "straw man" argument to divert the the real issue at hand. Of course the Earth rotates, which causes night and day. The simple answer is that wherever you are living on Earth you keep the 7th day Sabbath from sundown to sundown, starting on Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. That 7 day cycle has never been broken, I quoted Encyclopedia Britannica because if I quoted a SDA source you would most likely say EGW made it up. But, Britannica is secular and has no religious bias, and would have no reason to back up what SDAs believe, but Britannica agrees with SDAs based on history.

 

[TruthWave7]

This is screwed up on so many levels I don't know where to start. But I'll try....
First, never at any time did I ever say we cannot honor the Sabbath in 2012. You are the one who said that--not me. Second, it escapes me how you quote the Encyclopedia Brittanica as if that were the Word of God; this is in addition to the pagan Roman calendar, as you already have done. Third, why do you think there is a 7-day in the first place? Because we are honoring the Sabbath! We've been doing it the entire time and that's why there are 7-day weeks. You said it yourself: there is no celestial phenomenon dictating 7-day weeks. The only reason they are is because we have been observing it. Thus far the only sources you have given which show Saturday is "the" Sabbath are the Encyclopedia Britannica and the pagan Roman calendar.

This is like tithing our first 10%. I guess we're supposed to come to church with our earnings in cash, and we all need to get the SDA's approval as to which dollar bills are the "first" ones.

If you understand the 7th day Sabbath then why don't you obey it? You obviously keep Sunday and day honored by the traditions of men! This is what Jesus had to say regarding that mindset:

Mark 7:7-8
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men,

 

[MoreCoffee]

I am guessing here, but I think that bbbb is referring to the practical impossibility of keeping Sabbath on a spherical planet when your "Sabbath keepers" are spread around the globe. Some will obviously be working while those resident in Palestine & Israel will be Sabbath keeping. And when the SDAs in Palestine & Israel are working some SDAs will be Sabbath keeping. Obviously the day that is to be kept holy is not a 24 hour day in Palestine if it has to be spread around the whole globe.

Again you present a "straw man" argument to divert the the real issue at hand. Of course the Earth rotates, which causes night and day. The simple answer is that wherever you are living on Earth you keep the 7th day Sabbath from sundown to sundown on starting on Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. That 7 day cycle has never been broken, I quoted Encyclopedia Britannica because if I quoted a SDA source you would most likely say EGW made it up. But, Britannica is secular has no reason to back up what SDAs believe, but they agree based on astronomy, science and history.

You did refer to the Encyclopaedia Britannica as your authority for an unbroken chain of seven day weeks from 'time immemorial' to today. We ought to de-construct your claim a little. Let's see what it means and what implications it has:

1. The expression "Time immemorial" has a specific meaning in legal/scholarly circles. That meaning is "In English law and its derivatives, time immemorial means the same as time out of mind, "a time before legal history and beyond legal memory." In 1275, by the first Statute of Westminster, the time of memory was limited to the reign of Richard I (Richard the Lionheart), beginning 6 July 1189, the date of the King's accession."
2. Given what is said in point 1 above the Encyclopaedia reference is not claiming that the seven day week goes back to creation-week, thus even your authoritative source is not affirming SDA contentions about the continuity of the seven day cycle.
3. Ancient Israel occupied one small region of the globe, the strip of land nowadays referred to as Palestine and currently occupied by the nations of Israel and the Palestinian Authority. This meant that for ancient Israel there were no time zones and that means that they never gave a moments thought to what would be the Sabbath day in New Zealand or on Hawaii.
4. Today Christians can be found living at every longitude and in every time zone. This means that a Christian living on one of the Hawaiian Islands and a Christian living in New Zealand will see the same sunset but will think it falls on two completely different days; specifically the Hawaiian will think it is Friday sunset and the New Zealander will think it is Saturday sunset. So in effect Seventh day observers have a 48 hour Sabbath and not a single day that could be identified with the memorial of the exact day on which God rested.
5. Since we have no firm evidence that the same seven day cycle has been maintained unbroken from when Adam was created until today we can have no firm confidence that Saturday in the USA is the Sabbath day.
6. We also have no solid and conclusive evidence that the seventh day mentioned in Moses time is the same day as the seventh day identified on a modern calendar. There is no sufficient evidence that the cycle has been unbroken from Moses day until today.

Okay, so you say that the above is a straw man argument, and I say it is a substantial argument that strikes deep into the claims of SDAs about the nature of Saturday and the practicality Saturday observance.

PS: Sunday in New Zealand and Australia corresponds pretty closely to Saturday in the western USA; does that mean that Sunday mass attendance in Australia, for example, is Sabbath observance?

PPS: Astronomy will not tell you which day is Saturday. The days of the week have no special astronomical significance and do not follow any stellar or planetary cycle. A day, as such, is related to Earth's rotation on its axis, but Saturday has no special rotational privilege.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Okay, so did the "not" side of the debate win?

 

[bugkiller]

Okay, so did the "not" side of the debate win?

Not yet. Have 3 more posts each counting my just delivered post. It should appear later this evening or in the morning.

bugkiller

 

[MoreCoffee]

Does it take you that long to write a post!

All mine take about 10 mins or less.

 

[TruthWave7]

You did refer to the Encyclopaedia Britannica as your authority for an unbroken chain of seven day weeks from 'time immemorial' to today. We ought to de-construct your claim a little. Let's see what it means and what implications it has:

1. The expression "Time immemorial" has a specific meaning in legal/scholarly circles. That meaning is "In English law and its derivatives, time immemorial means the same as time out of mind, "a time before legal history and beyond legal memory." In 1275, by the first Statute of Westminster, the time of memory was limited to the reign of Richard I (Richard the Lionheart), beginning 6 July 1189, the date of the King's accession."
2. Given what is said in point 1 above the Encyclopaedia reference is not claiming that the seven day week goes back to creation-week, thus even your authoritative source is not affirming SDA contentions about the continuity of the seven day cycle.
3. Ancient Israel occupied one small region of the globe, the strip of land nowadays referred to as Palestine and currently occupied by the nations of Israel and the Palestinian Authority. This meant that for ancient Israel there were no time zones and that means that they never gave a moments thought to what would be the Sabbath day in New Zealand or on Hawaii.
4. Today Christians can be found living at every longitude and in every time zone. This means that a Christian living on one of the Hawaiian Islands and a Christian living in New Zealand will see the same sunset but will think it falls on two completely different days; specifically the Hawaiian will think it is Friday sunset and the New Zealander will think it is Saturday sunset. So in effect Seventh day observers have a 48 hour Sabbath and not a single day that could be identified with the memorial of the exact day on which God rested.
5. Since we have no firm evidence that the same seven day cycle has been maintained unbroken from when Adam was created until today we can have no firm confidence that Saturday in the USA is the Sabbath day.
6. We also have no solid and conclusive evidence that the seventh day mentioned in Moses time is the same day as the seventh day identified on a modern calendar. There is no sufficient evidence that the cycle has been unbroken from Moses day until today.

Okay, so you say that the above is a straw man argument, and I say it is a substantial argument that strikes deep into the claims of SDAs about the nature of Saturday and the practicality Saturday observance.

PS: Sunday in New Zealand and Australia corresponds pretty closely to Saturday in the western USA; does that mean that Sunday mass attendance in Australia, for example, is Sabbath observance?

PPS: Astronomy will not tell you which day is Saturday. The days of the week have no special astronomical significance and do not follow any stellar or planetary cycle. A day, as such, is related to Earth's rotation on its axis, but Saturday has no special rotational privilege.

Let me explode your premise: Let's say mankind lost track of the 7th day Sabbath (I don't believe that), when Jesus came to Earth as a Man/God, if the Sabbath of Jews was being observed surely Jesus would have corrected the disciples that they keeping the wrong, but there is no such teaching in the Gospels. Additionally, this chart compiled over a hundred years ago, by Dr. William Meade Jones, gives proof positive evidence that the 7th day Sabbath could not have been lost track of, or forgotten, because there were way to many language groups that knew of it spanning the globe.

Chart of the week - name for seventh day means rest or Sabbath

 

[MoreCoffee]

Let me explode your premise: Let's say mankind lost track of the 7th day Sabbath (I don't believe that), when Jesus came to Earth as a Man/God, if the Sabbath of Jews was being observed surely Jesus would have corrected the disciples that they keeping the wrong, but there is no such teaching in the Gospels.

Why? Exactly why would Jesus correct a whole culture's alleged mistake if the alleged mistake was insignificance?

Additionally, this chart compiled over a hundred years ago, by Dr. William Meade Jones, gives proof positive evidence that the 7th day Sabbath could not have been lost track of, or forgotten, because there were way to many language groups that knew of it spanning the globe.
...

All quite irrelevant. None of the claims in the table help to solve the 48 hour 'Sabbath'.

 

[bugkiller]

Does it take you that long to write a post!

All mine take about 10 mins or less.

No. And neither does it take tha long to express my opinions. It does take a bit more time to consider what and how one says things. Proof reading one's own stuff does take time. It takes more time to dress for a formal dinner than just having some one over for hamburgers after the football game.

bugkiller

 

[TruthWave7]

Why? Exactly why would Jesus correct a whole culture's alleged mistake if the alleged mistake was insignificance?

Note, the text below, Jesus set an example of Sabbath keeping while He was on Earth.

Luke 4:16 "And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read."

John 15:10

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

If the Jews of the 1st century had lost of time, Jesus would have corrected the error, because He would not let his chosen people be in ignorance. But, it was not necessary because they were keeping the right day. Jesus wasn't politically correct, and He often rebuked the Pharisees for their honor of tradition, so then if they were not keeping the Sabbath on the right, surely He would have at least informed the Apostles. But, frankly, since the time of Moses the Sabbath sequence of day was set, when Jesus gave the children of Israel Manna six days a week, but none on the 7th day for 40 years, and the Jews never lost sight of the sequence of day till the 1st century, and thereafter the Jews were more and more dispersed and kept it holy till now.

All quite irrelevant. None of the claims in the table help to solve the 48 hour 'Sabbath'.

The chart is very relevant, in that it clearly shows the scores of different languages listed that had a word in their language for the 7th day! It also proves that the even in ancient times people then knew more about the 7 day weekly cycle, and the 7th day than in modern times!

 

[Pythons]

The chart is very relevant, in that it clearly shows the scores of different languages listed that had a word in their language for the 7th day! It also proves that the even in ancient times people then knew more about the 7 day weekly cycle, and the 7th day than in modern times!

How many of those languages also show Sunday as being the Lord's Day?

 

[MoreCoffee]

In the following quote I've inserted some words in red text to voice objections to the patently absurd conclusions that the author of the quote has leapt to. The red text is therefore mine and must not be confused with what was originally written in the post from which the quote is taken.

The chart is very relevant, in that it clearly shows the scores of different languages listed that had [when did they have it?, nearly every instance listed in the table is an instance of post ancient-world usages, most seem to be rather modern, a few are from the middle ages] a word in their language for the 7th day! It also proves that the even in ancient times people then knew more about the 7 day weekly cycle, and the 7th day than in modern times![Only in your dreams! Very few cultures that were not in contact with Jewish culture in the ancient world had cycles of seven days, and for you to make any sort of case, no matter how weak, for a world wide creation ordinance observed by all humankind you'd need proof for every one of the thousands of diverse cultures that have existed throughout recorded history. Clearly you have nothing of the sort so your claim is just absurd.]

It is irrelevant for the reason that I previously stated, namely, it does nothing to alleviate the 48 hour Sabbath problem you face as a Seventh Day Adventist.

What does it matter if a Roman after Julius Caesar's time had a seven day week? Before that time he had months and the ides of the month. What would it matter if a Persian adopted a seven day week after coming into contact with the Jews? And what would it matter if the lands that Alexander the Great conquered had some knowledge of Jewish weeks? It does nothing but establish that Jewish religion and culture influenced some of the surrounding cultures in the matter of weeks. China had no seven day week with a Sabbath, nor did Russia, nor the Celts in Scotland or Ireland, nor the native Americans in North and South America. You are grasping for straws.

Now how about returning to the issues that I raised in the post that you've been fighting for these past couple of days? Answer the points raised,

You referred to the Encyclopaedia Britannica as authority for an unbroken chain of seven day weeks from 'time immemorial' to today. We ought to de-construct your claim a little. Let's see what it means and what implications it has:

1. The expression "Time immemorial" has a specific meaning in legal/scholarly circles. That meaning is "In English law and its derivatives, time immemorial means the same as time out of mind, "a time before legal history and beyond legal memory." In 1275, by the first Statute of Westminster, the time of memory was limited to the reign of Richard I (Richard the Lionheart), beginning 6 July 1189, the date of the King's accession."
2. Given what is said in point 1 above the Encyclopaedia reference is not claiming that the seven day week goes back to creation-week, thus even your authoritative source is not affirming SDA contentions about the continuity of the seven day cycle.
3. Ancient Israel occupied one small region of the globe, the strip of land nowadays referred to as Palestine and currently occupied by the nations of Israel and the Palestinian Authority. This meant that for ancient Israel there were no time zones and that means that they never gave a moments thought to what would be the Sabbath day in New Zealand or on Hawaii.
4. Today Christians can be found living at every longitude and in every time zone. This means that a Christian living on one of the Hawaiian Islands and a Christian living in New Zealand will see the same sunset but will think it falls on two completely different days; specifically the Hawaiian will think it is Friday sunset and the New Zealander will think it is Saturday sunset. So in effect Seventh day observers have a 48 hour Sabbath and not a single day that could be identified with the memorial of the exact day on which God rested.
5. Since we have no firm evidence that the same seven day cycle has been maintained unbroken from when Adam was created until today we can have no firm confidence that Saturday in the USA is the Sabbath day.
6. We also have no solid and conclusive evidence that the seventh day mentioned in Moses time is the same day as the seventh day identified on a modern calendar. There is no sufficient evidence that the cycle has been unbroken from Moses day until today.

Okay, so you say that the above is a straw man argument, and I say it is a substantial argument that strikes deep into the claims of SDAs about the nature of Saturday and the practicality Saturday observance.


PS: Sunday in New Zealand and Australia corresponds pretty closely to Saturday in the western USA; does that mean that Sunday mass attendance in Australia, for example, is Sabbath observance?

PPS: Astronomy will not tell you which day is Saturday. The days of the week have no special astronomical significance and do not follow any stellar or planetary cycle. A day, as such, is related to Earth's rotation on its axis, but Saturday has no special rotational privilege.​

To anybody reading this thread I say this, if the seventh day is special and holy, and if the seventh day lasts about twenty four hours as other days do then how can the Sabbath day in Hawaii be twenty four hours later than it is in New Zealand? If the Seventh day is really just the seventh in a cycle of seven days of the week then why do our SDA interlocutors argue so fiercely in favour of Saturday as the Seventh day when we could just as well make a case for Sunday or Monday or any other day in the week as the seventh in a cycle starting six days earlier? In all honesty this whole seventh day is Saturday and hence Saturday is the one and only Sabbath that God blessed and no other day has any such blessing etcetera etcetera is just hooey.