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Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

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Fascinated With God

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Or in other words: If God tells us to 'love our enemies', but He doesn't, isn't He then telling us to be 'gooder' than He is? Isn't He saying, in effect, "do as I say and not as I do"?
Jesus used a whip against the money changers. There are lots of examples of the "wrath of God". And Hitler is not my enemy.

I think that 'turn the other cheek' is an attempt to get people to stop feeling so self-righteous and getting into huge disputes over things that are really just trifling matters in the grand scheme of things. But I do not think that this means that we should roll over and play dead to pure evil.
 
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seeingeyes

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Jesus used a whip against the money changers. There are lots of examples of the "wrath of God". And Hitler is not my enemy.

I think that 'turn the other cheek' is an attempt to get people to stop feeling so self-righteous and getting into huge disputes over things that are really just trifling matters in the grand scheme of things. But I do not think that this means that we should roll over and play dead to pure evil.

Nope, we shouldn't roll over and play dead. We should actually die. Is this not what our Lord showed us about defeating evil? But perhaps that's a different thread.

I don't deny God's wrath for one second. Our God has teeth! (I should know, I've been in them.) The Lord our God is not fluffy bunnies and sunshine. But the question was, "does He love His enemies, or not?"

I don't think that the now-classic view of hell leaves any room for God to love His enemies. People are given a chance to earn God's love, but one couldn't really claim to love someone that they abandoned for an eternity.
 
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Hillsage

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I don't see sending Hitler into the outer darkness as being in any way sadistic. He won't like it there, he will weep and gnash his teeth, but that hardly compares to what he did to people.
Orthodox believers would not consider Hitler as going to 'outer darkness', but to the eternal fire and unspeakable torture of hell. You surprised me with your outer darkness view.

Taking this to it's logical conclusion you would have to say that, because people have committed all sorts of unspeakable evil deeds in the name of God, then that must mean that God doesn't exist.
That doesn't seem to be a logical conclusion to me. :confused:

We're kinda running over one another on our responses, and I'm getting behind on the whole thread. I'll try to get to your next post.
 
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seeingeyes

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We're kinda running over one another on our responses, and I'm getting behind on the whole thread. I'll try to get to your next post.

That was my fault. I started responding to Fascinated's responses to you and mucked up the flow. Do you ever have one of those days where you do nothing but apologize? Well, today is my day. lol Sorry 'bout that.
 
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Hillsage

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I found a much more recent book on Platonic dialogs from 1996, "Being and Logos", that mentions the word "etymologies" 41 times, and "etymology" 33 times. In none of those instances does the author refer to Platonic etymologies as being widely held to be anything like, "too absurd to have been seriously intended".
Such is the difficulty we all have with 'experts'.

Well, you guys have me thinking. The pastor at the church I grew up in virtually never mentioned hell, so I've never really given it this much thought before. I'm now more inclined to think there is no eternal fiery hell, but rather just eternity in the outer darkness.
Again I have to ask. What is 'the purpose' of such a penalty?

How is that? It sounds like you are saying that I believe that God does not forgive Hitler, but I do.
No, I'm saying that scripture says we are to always forgive (including you/me forgiving Hitler), but if Hitler didn't make some deathbed confession we don't know about, then it is eternal fire and torture without forgiveness.
 
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Fascinated With God

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You surprised me with your outer darkness view.
Why?

That doesn't seem to be a logical conclusion to me. :confused:
If Queen Mary's false beliefs about who goes to hell are an actual reflection on the validity of the existence of hell, then it follows by the same logic that people's false beliefs about God are an actual reflection on the validity of the existence of God.

Again I have to ask. What is 'the purpose' of such a penalty?
The same as the purpose of sentencing a heinous criminal to life without parole. The purpose is to keep everyone else safe from such criminals.

No, I'm saying that scripture says we are to always forgive (including you/me forgiving Hitler), but if Hitler didn't make some deathbed confession we don't know about, then it is eternal fire and torture without forgiveness.
Did Jesus forgive the money changers after he whipped them? Did God forgive the Amalekites when He said, "put to death men and women, children and infants"?
 
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Hillsage

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That was my fault. I started responding to Fascinated's responses to you and mucked up the flow. Do you ever have one of those days where you do nothing but apologize? Well, today is my day. lol Sorry 'bout that.

I thought about not forgiving you...but I don't want to go to hell for eternity...so I guess I will. ;)

I've just been too busy to stay abreast of the thread. And we are leaving for a reunion shortly and I won't be back til Sunday. You guys have fun now.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Originally Posted by [B said:
DrBubbaLove][/b]
What is the purpose of man?
To sweep the kitchen floor and take out the trash. Occasionally to mow the lawn. Grilling meat.
Spider removal.
Sort of my point. If one does not have a solid understanding or appreciation of our purpose, and especially if one sees there is nothing special about man's purpose for being that relates us to our Creator -we simply "are" (for doing chores and grilling meat), then there would be difficulty in trying to explain what God intended for us after this life. (maybe resting with a cold one and having someone else grill tasty meat for us).

Many denominations have some statement reflecting an understanding of the purpose for which God made us. The answer to the question should support what one believes is to be done with us when we are finished here.
 
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Exjunkman

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Sort of my point. If one does not have a solid understanding or appreciation of our purpose, and especially if one sees there is nothing special about man's purpose for being that relates us to our Creator -we simply "are" (for doing chores and grilling meat), then there would be difficulty in trying to explain what God intended for us after this life. (maybe resting with a cold one and having someone else grill tasty meat for us).

Many denominations have some statement reflecting an understanding of the purpose for which God made us. The answer to the question should support what one believes is to be done with us when we are finished here.

Personally, I believe the meaning and purpose of life is to resist the EVIL that is within us and LOVE God & one another.
This whole idea that God demands that we submit to Him or suffer eternal torture reeks of ancient peoples who sacrifice to their gods for a bountiful harvest and avoidance of suffering.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Personally, I believe the meaning and purpose of life is to resist the EVIL that is within us and LOVE God & one another.
Slow down. Most of agree we are suppose to resist evil and love one another. But most would also say those things follow from our purpose rather than being the reason God made us.

More specific, purpose for which God made man. Like similar statements of various groups of Christians, this one includes that we are made to love God and that is the main point. But there is a point missing from this statement. For how long?
 
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he-man

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Interesting, (the whole post is interesting).
Good points, worthy of consideration.

But why did Jesus talk about the devil as if he were an actual person?
(You belong to your father, the devil (διαβόλου), and you want to carry out your father's desire.) John 8:44 STRONGS NT 1228: διάβολος
:confused: 1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: (8) for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, (9) to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit, (10) to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of languages, to another the interpretation of languages. (11) But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

Consider the RSV which translates as:
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever.

Then read trhe actual Greek:
Mat 6:13 και μη εισενεγκης ημας εις πειρασμον αλλα ρυσαι ημας απο του πονηρου
The RSV has not given us the phrase "The Evil One" in plain unchallengeable Roman letters. "The Evil" comes out boldly enough, in Roman type, but then there is a falter, and the word "one", which is the pith of the alteration in italics.
"Why introduce such words at all if they are not in the original?"
In Genesis we find him a serpent—an animal. We say, "Here is the tempter, but where is the devil?" The narrative gives as nothing but the serpent. To add the devil to the serpent is to go beyond the record; For it condems the serpent forever as an animal Gen 3:14 upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:a pagan graft upon a simple and reasonable and divine narrative.

It is authentically recorded (and Peter commends the record to our confidence) that a dumb ass was enabled to speak in rebuke of the madness of Balaam (Num. 22:28), so why is there more nor less difficulty about the serpent.

To give Adam and Eve an opportunity for obedience of this sort,
or to terminate and set aside the obedience, the serpent provided the test. It was a divine arrangement with a divine object. The same principle was afterwards illustrated when "God did tempt Abraham" (Gen. 22:1)

But then, who is the devil? (James 1:14), But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

Rev. 12:7-10 is next put forward, but reading it as we are in the book itself directed to read, the scene changes altogether."I will show thee things which must be hereafter" (Rev. 4:1), on which there arises the obvious reflection that if it was a representation of things future to John's day, it cannot be a history of something long before John's day. This is sufficient of itself to dispose of the passage as a proof of the popular "Devil and Satan".

"Here is the mind which hath wisdom" ( 17:9) "The seven heads are seven mountains (or hills) on which the woman sitteth, and (an additional meaning) there are seven kings (sovereignties—forms of sovereign power, succeeding each other on the seven hills), five are fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come.... And the ten horns are TEN KINGS which have received no kingdom as yet . . . " "The woman which thou sawest is that great city which reigneth over the kings of the earth". Was there a great city in this position in John's day? How about ROME?

Here is a clue...Thus the dragon as a whole is a political symbol—the symbol of a constitution of the things among the nations of the earth—a constitution having its centre in Rome. Now it is this symbol which is labelled THAT OLD SERPENT, the DEVIL and SATAN, which deceiveth the whole world".

How could being killed by the devil kill the devil? Heb. 2:14 And how if he killed the devil, can the devil in that case be still alive;

and how are we to understand the devil having the power of death in view of the fact that the power of death rests with God, and with God only, who inflicts it at His pleasure? (Deut. 32:39).

"Our Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world" (Gal. 1:3, 4). It was to be made conditional upon a recognition and submission to what was accomplished in Christ. "Through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins" (Acts 13:38).

1 Tim. 3:11, where the wives of the deacons are forbidden to be slanderers διαβολους (why then is the word in the original elsewhere rendered Devil).
Parkhurst in his Lexicon, tells us that diabolos διαβολους (the word translated devil) is a compound of dia through, and ballo to cast, and means to dart or strike through; hence, to slander, to utter falsehood maliciously, to speak lies. for purposes of understanding, is best to be read in English as The Liar,

The διαβολους Slanderer, or The Accuser; and then the way lies open to ask, A man committs sin from sheer wickedness to get some good for himself. The good he seeks cannot come of it. Hence, sin universally is a lie, and, when personified, is a liar.

Hence, the statement "he that denieth that Jesus"..and "You belong to your father, the devil (διαβόλου), and you want to carry out your father's desire.)" John 8:44 STRONGS NT 1228: διάβολος
1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

"The Lord stirred up an adversary (A SATAN) unto Solomon, Hadad the Edomite" (1 Kings 11:14). "Lest in the battle, he (David) be an adversary (A SATAN) to us" (1 Sam. 29:4).

"There is neither adversary (Satan) nor evil occurrent " (1 Kings 5:4).
There are New Testament instances, such as where Jesus addresses Peter as "Satan" when he opposed Christ's submission to death (Matt. 16:23):
and where Pergamos, the headquarters of the enemies of truth, is described as Satan's seat (Rev. 2:13). The adversary entering into Judas (John 13:27) leads us to inquire, What adversary ?

"It were good for that man", said Jesus "that he had not been born", showing that the sin of Christ's betrayal was charged upon the man Judas (not a supernatural being).
(Acts 5:3). Ananias and Sapphira went into the presence of the apostles
with a lie on their lips; Peter said, "Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Spirit, and to keep back part of the price of the land?" The meaning of Satan filling the heart crops out in the next sentence but one; "Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart?"
(verse 4); also in Peter's address to Sapphira who came in three hours after Ananias. Peter said unto her, "How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the spirit of the Lord?" (verse 9).

But supposing we had not been thus informed that the lie of Ananias was due to a compact with his wife, from selfish motives, to misrepresent the extent of their property, we should have had no difficulty in understanding that Satan filling the heart was the impulse of the flesh, which is the
great Satan.

Out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies . . . (Matt. 15 :19).
By man came death (1 Cor. 15:21).
The wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23).
Sin hath reigned unto death (Rom. 5:21). Sin bringeth forth death (Jas. 1:15).
Now, if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. . .
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God (Rom.
8:5-9, 12-14). Bible Teaching Concerning The Devil and Satan
 
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Exjunkman

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Slow down. Most of agree we are suppose to resist evil and love one another. But most would also say those things follow from our purpose rather than being the reason God made us.

More specific, purpose for which God made man. Like similar statements of various groups of Christians, this one includes that we are made to love God and that is the main point. But there is a point missing from this statement. For how long?

Are you referring to the verse that stated that the chief purpose of man is to know God and enjoy Him FOREVER?
Is that what you're getting at? Im thinking thats obvious. Maybe you mean something else.
 
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Theodore1

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People who are in sin and who like sin, Have to believe hell is Not real.

If they start believing hell is real, that would mean they would have to stop sinning, meaning they would have to stop pleasing themselves in the ways they are used to pleasing themselves (alcohol, sex, drugs, money, power, etc etc etc), and they really don't want to stop pleasing themselves. To be honest, i don't know if i can blame them. It is not easy to forsake pleasure. Then again, nothing that is really worth doing in life, is easy.

A person can not but want to please himself in any way possible. The pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain is what we strive for, because this is what our desires (of the flesh), to which we are slaves according to Paul, dictate.
It is only through the grace of the Lord and our continuous prayer that we stop wanting to sin. And also, it is only possible to really believe in hell, if our Lord opens our eyes to this truth. Without Him, we can not do anything.
 
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seeingeyes

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People who are in sin and who like sin, Have to believe hell is Not real.

If they start believing hell is real, that would mean they would have to stop sinning, meaning they would have to stop pleasing themselves in the ways they are used to pleasing themselves (alcohol, sex, drugs, money, power, etc etc etc), and they really don't want to stop pleasing themselves. To be honest, i don't know if i can blame them. It is not easy to forsake pleasure. Then again, nothing that is really worth doing in life, is easy.

A person can not but want to please himself in any way possible. The pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain is what we strive for, because this is what our desires (of the flesh), to which we are slaves according to Paul, dictate.
It is only through the grace of the Lord and our continuous prayer that we stop wanting to sin. And also, it is only possible to really believe in hell, if our Lord opens our eyes to this truth. Without Him, we can not do anything.

I... wait... What's the difference between the 'pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain' and the 'pursuit of heaven and the avoidance of hell'? Is this not just pushing the desires of the flesh into the kingdom of God?
 
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Phantasman

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I... wait... What's the difference between the 'pursuit of pleasure and the avoidance of pain' and the 'pursuit of heaven and the avoidance of hell'? Is this not just pushing the desires of the flesh into the kingdom of God?

I agree. He's thinking "carrot and the stick" to make people do things or listened to too much Tony Robbins.

Maybe some are sold on having "life and having it more abundantly" or just realized that they are loved by someone who gave up their life for them.

The point is valid though that Christians do try to make believers out of people through fear (of eternal torment) a lot.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Are you referring to the verse that stated that the chief purpose of man is to know God and enjoy Him FOREVER?
Is that what you're getting at? Im thinking thats obvious. Maybe you mean something else.
Yes, it comes to mind as obvious. What is not so obvious is the implications (on the afterlife) of believing it.
I believe as many do that God made man to love and serve Him forever.

If one believes that or something similar to it as the purpose for God making man, then it should follow that God created man to "be" forever as opposed to thinking God merely offers us the potential to be with Him forever.

As we all know are current bodies are not immortal, the soul would be the only part of our nature which could be, assuming one believes there is something about man which is immortal.
 
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briareos

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Kinda confused about that...

Can someone who doesn't believe in Hell give me a simple list of reasons why? :)

I.... hope against hope that whoever scripted the books we have today were wrong. Nothing as horrifying as hell should ever exist and neither should almost ever person who has ever woken and walked this earth be sent there to endure more pain and suffering that any human being has ever endured for far more than 1000 years.

Nothing I can imagine justifies such reckless destruction of almost all we know and love. I cannot believe that hell is what we typically consider it be or that Jesus would have much such a place. I fear to think the name of such a person and the name of a such a place should be spoken together.
 
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seeingeyes

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Are you referring to the verse that stated that the chief purpose of man is to know God and enjoy Him FOREVER?
Is that what you're getting at? Im thinking thats obvious. Maybe you mean something else.

Just so you know, that line isn't a verse from the Bible, it's an answer from the Westminster Catechism. <---that link has the catechism plus links to the 'proof text' verses the answers came from, if you are interested.

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled debate. :)
 
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Hillsage

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Because your posts just sounded typical of an eternal hell believer. Eternal darkness is less sadistic though....I guess.

If Queen Mary's false beliefs about who goes to hell are an actual reflection on the validity of the existence of hell, then it follows by the same logic that people's false beliefs about God are an actual reflection on the validity of the existence of God.
You missed my point. Queen Mary's belief does NOT validate the existence of hell. But her false belief validated her sadistic treatment of slowly roasting people alive while the last words they speak are "LORD JESUS RECEIVE MY SPIRIT."

The same as the purpose of sentencing a heinous criminal to life without parole. The purpose is to keep everyone else safe from such criminals.
Excuse me but aren't you missing a point here. Name one person who was "sentenced without parole"' whose sentence didn't end with their death. Death is payment in full. Not one dead prisoner is still sitting...laying in their prison cell. And death was the 'God ordained' set-price for sin, in the Garden to begin with. That price has never changed.

Did Jesus forgive the money changers after he whipped them? Did God forgive the Amalekites when He said, "put to death men and women, children and infants"?
Good question...and we as Christians are supposed to have been giving the right answer for the last two thousand years. "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." You surely don't think those words were only meant for a couple of centurions and pharisees standing around. I know that I don't.
 
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Fascinated With God

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Because your posts just sounded typical of an eternal hell believer. Eternal darkness is less sadistic though....I guess.
So then what is the argument against sentencing extreme sociopaths to eternity in the outer darkness? What else can you do with people who hate God at the very core of their being? (I think that is what blasphemy against the Holy Spirit really is.)

You missed my point. Queen Mary's belief does NOT validate the existence of hell. But her false belief validated her sadistic treatment of slowly roasting people alive while the last words they speak are "LORD JESUS RECEIVE MY SPIRIT."
I missed nothing, your point is not complicated. Your whole point behind asserting that her beliefs motivated her sadistic actions is that her actions invalidate her belief. The actions were bad so the belief must be bad. Why are you trying to deny that this is your argument?

I replied to this that people's false conceptions of God also lead them to all sorts of sadistic acts. To paraphrase you, 'their false beliefs in God validated their sadistic treatment'. Instead of answering this point you just said I somehow missed your very obvious point and repeated yourself.

Excuse me but aren't you missing a point here. Name one person who was "sentenced without parole"' whose sentence didn't end with their death. Death is payment in full. Not one dead prisoner is still sitting...laying in their prison cell. And death was the 'God ordained' set-price for sin, in the Garden to begin with. That price has never changed.
I am missing the point, I can't tell whether you are endorsing Annihilationism here or saying that Hitler got off scott free after he died.

Good question...and we as Christians are supposed to have been giving the right answer for the last two thousand years. "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do." You surely don't think those words were only meant for a couple of centurions and pharisees standing around. I know that I don't.
What about the money changers and the Amalekites? You said nothing about them.

As to Jesus, he didn't just turn the other cheek, he egged them on by refusing to speak in his defense at his trial. Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, both Pharisees, were fervently on his side and could have mounted a winning defense for him, but he wouldn't give them anything to work with. So when he forgave his executioners it was not the same as saying that we should forgive Hitler. None of Hitler's victims egged him on to do what he did.





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