PEANUT GALLERY-FORMAL DEBATE-Sabbath for Christians; Obligation or Not?

[bbbbbbb]

Don't you realize how irrational and illogical your reasoning is? If what you stated above is true, then you and every professing Christian in the world can continue breaking God's Holy Law, the 10 Commandments, without remorse, or consequences! If that is the case, then there there was no need for Jesus to have died for us! The Gospel that you preach is no Gospel at all, because it promotes lawlessness and sin, which eventually leads to eternal death.

So, am I correct in understanding that you believe that Jesus died in order to put the Gentiles under the Law?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Next post is up! Here's the link: #4

 

[TruthWave7]

So, am I correct in understanding that you believe that Jesus died in order to put the Gentiles under the Law?

If a Jew or a Gentile breaks the 10 Commandments it is sin. Jesus died for the human race. Sin is sin. If a Jew breaks any of the 10 Commandments, it is sin, if a Gentile breaks any of the 10 Commandment it is sin. Jesus died for our sins, but He didn't die so we can continue in sin with impunity!

 

[bugkiller]

Forgot which thread I was on. I can not debate here yet. Sorry.

bugkiller

 

[from scratch]

If a Jew or a Gentile breaks the 10 Commandments it is sin. Jesus died for the human race. Sin is sin. If a Jew breaks any of the 10 Commandments, it is sin, if a Gentile breaks any of the 10 Commandment it is sin. Jesus died for our sins, but He didn't die so we would continue in sin!

For a violation to occur one must be obligated. This has been covered and covered in GT. Moses says - The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. (Deut 5:3) This is immediately followed with the 10 Cs Moses said are the covenant made with the COI in Deut 4:13.

Since Gentiles are not obligated to the 10 Cs, how can they violate them?

It is true Jesus died for the whole human race or all of mankind. And we have a new covenant not like the old one made with better promises, not the law. The 7th day sabbath is not commanded in the new covenant anywhere. It must be commanded in order to be required. There is no addendum to the new covenant that I know of.

 

[TruthWave7]

For a violation to occur one must be obligated. This has been covered and covered in GT. Moses says - The Lord made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. (Deut 5:3) This is immediately followed with the 10 Cs Moses said are the covenant made with the COI in Deut 4:13.

Since Gentiles are not obligated to the 10 Cs, how can they violate them?

It is true Jesus died for the whole human race or all of mankind. And we have a new covenant not like the old one made with better promises, not the law. The 7th day sabbath is not commanded in the new covenant anywhere. It must be commanded in order to be required. There is no addendum to the new covenant that I know of.

Are you a student of Christian history? Let me share with you, that if you look at the views of Protestant Reformers, you will see that almost without exception, all of the Reformers and even the Papacy viewed the 10 Commandments as purely moral laws, that transcend the OT and the NT. Moral laws are not ceremonial. The ceremonial laws were in many cases ceremonial, but the 7th day Sabbath was not, its purely moral. That is what explodes your dispensationalist view of the Holy Law of God. But, here is the clincher, according to your view of the Law of God anyone Christian or not, can break God's Moral Laws and it not be sin. If that be the case then Jesus didn't need to die on the cross.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Forgot which thread I was on. I can not debate here yet. Sorry.

bugkiller

I get that way sometimes...senility hasn't quite fully took me over yet tho

Jeremiah 23:27 "who try to make My people forget My name by their dreams which everyone tells his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My name for Baal.
Hosea 2:13 "So will I visit upon her the days of the Baals, unto whom she used to burn incense and decked herself with her nose-ring and her jewelry,
and went her way, after her lovers,--whereas Me she forgot" declareth Yahweh.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7570002-2/#post59890186
Why Jerusalem is Mystically Called Sodom and Egypt

 

[from scratch]

Are you a student of Christian history? Let me share with you, that if you look at the views of Protestant Reformers, you will see that almost without exception, all of the Reformers and even the Papacy viewed the 10 Commandments as purely moral laws, that transcend the OT and the NT. Moral laws are not ceremonial. The ceremonial laws were in many cases ceremonial, but the 7th day Sabbath was not, its purely moral. That is what explodes your dispensationalist view of the Holy Law of God. But, here is the clincher, according to your view of the Law of God anyone Christian or not, can break God's Moral Laws and it not be sin. If that be the case then Jesus didn't need to die on the cross.

What is moral? Can one thing be moral to one person and not another? Does that mean one person is immoral for opposite behaviour? Depends on who that person is and what law applies to them.

For isntance is it moral to drive 70 MPH? Yes but not in a 35 MPH speed zone.

Is it moral to drive 70 MHP in Texas? Then why is it not moral to drive 70 MPH in Califorinia when the speed limit is 55 MPH? Am I talking realativity? NO!

It depends on who the law applies to. Same in a relationship with God. God promised a new covenant and Jesus (God) testified it was current.

What else do we need? It can not be proven from the NT there is any obligation to the law by the Christian. The NT does not change moral behaviour.

Not submitting to the OC does not mean sin is now legal or OK. Sin was before the law - Rom 5:13 And sin must be after the law because we repent of sin while the law was for a set part of time Gal 3:19 among a host of other Scripture passages.

Like many you do not understand the cross and what one can be redeemed from. You only consider the surface as is commonly discussed and nothing else.

 

[TruthWave7]

What is moral? Can one thing be moral to one person and not another? Does that mean one person is immoral for opposite behaviour? Depends on who that person is and what law applies to them.

For isntance is it moral to drive 70 MPH? Yes but not in a 35 MPH speed zone.

Is it moral to drive 70 MHP in Texas? Then why is it not moral to drive 70 MPH in Califorinia when the speed limit is 55 MPH? Am I talking realativity? NO!

It depends on who the law applies to. Same in a relationship with God. God promised a new covenant and Jesus (God) testified it was current.

What else do we need? It can not be proven from the NT there is any obligation to the law by the Christian. The NT does not change moral behaviour.

Not submitting to the OC does not mean sin is now legal or OK. Sin was before the law - Rom 5:13 And sin must be after the law because we repent of sin while the law was for a set part of time Gal 3:19 among a host of other Scripture passages.

Like many you do not understand the cross and what one can be redeemed from. You only consider the surface as is commonly discussed and nothing else.

God defines morality via the 10 Commandments! Note, Exodus 20, the 10 Commandments, they form the foundation of morality in the Universe.

1And God spoke all these words, saying,
2“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3“You shall have no other gods beforea me.
4“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousandsb of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
8“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
13“You shall not murder.c
14“You shall not commit adultery.
15“You shall not steal.
16“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”

 

[New_Wineskin]

nm

 

[New_Wineskin]

So why do a lot of Christians want to see the Jews build another Temple for animal sacrifices, once again, after God sent the Roman army to destroy Jerusalem in ad 70?

The same reason why the Lord had them rebuild it the first time ... it shows that the Lord is not angry forever and stands on His promises .

It is interesting that He sent the same people who crucified His Son to destroy the Temple , as well .

 

[from scratch]

God defines morality via the 10 Commandments! Note, Exodus 20, the 10 Commandments, they form the foundation of morality in the Universe.

1And God spoke all these words, saying,
2“I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
3“You shall have no other gods beforea me.
4“You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6but showing steadfast love to thousandsb of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7“You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
8“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. 11For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.
12“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
13“You shall not murder.c
14“You shall not commit adultery.
15“You shall not steal.
16“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor’s.”

Where do you get moral or morals from? I don't see the word mentioned in your quote. I do not see the word moral in my Bible. Where is it in yours in specific relation to the 19 Cs being moral? Don't you really derive this from the last 5 of the 10?

 

[TruthWave7]

Where do you get moral or morals from? I don't see the word mentioned in your quote. I do not see the word moral in my Bible. Where is it in yours in specific relation to the 19 Cs being moral? Don't you really derive this from the last 5 of the 10?

Since you refuse the SDA position regarding the 10 Commandments, I will quote the Roman Catholic Catechism, and let the Jesuits explode your distorted and confused view of the 10 Commandments:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

This quote is very strong:

The Decalogue in the Church's Tradition

2064 In fidelity to Scripture and in conformity with the example of Jesus, the tradition of the Church has
acknowledged the primordial importance and significance of the Decalogue.


2065 Ever since St. Augustine, the Ten Commandments have occupied a predominant place in the catechesis of baptismal candidates and the faithful. In the fifteenth century, the custom arose of expressing the commandments of the Decalogue in rhymed formulae, easy to memorize and in positive form. They are still in use today. The catechisms of the Church have often expounded Christian morality by following the order of the Ten Commandments.
2066 The division and numbering of the Commandments have varied in the course of history. the present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by St. Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confessions. the Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities.
2067 The Ten Commandments state what is required in the love of God and love of neighbor. the first three concern love of God, and the other seven love of neighbor.
As charity comprises the two commandments to which the Lord related the whole Law and the prophets . . . so the Ten Commandments were themselves given on two tablets. Three were written on one tablet and seven on the other.27
2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the
justified man is still bound to keep them;28 The Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors
of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to
every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the
Commandments."29

2072 The Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations. They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are
engraved by God in the human heart.

 

[from scratch]

Since you refuse the SDA position regarding the 10 Commandments, I will quote the Roman Catholic Catechism, and let the Jesuits explode your distorted and confused view of the 10 Commandments:

So what makes you think I accept the RCC as my authority of belief? If one is wrong and another says the same thing, how does that make it right? Two wrongs make something right?

 

[TruthWave7]

Where do you get moral or morals from? I don't see the word mentioned in your quote. I do not see the word moral in my Bible. Where is it in yours in specific relation to the 19 Cs being moral? Don't you really derive this from the last 5 of the 10?

Why do you refuse to see what is so clearly set before you? It is common knowledge that the 10 Commandments written by the finger of God himself defined what is moral vs amoral. Its defines right and wrong.

 

[usexpat97]

The Ten Commandments are very clear, and Christians should follow them. It's just the claim that you absolutely have to observe Sabbath on a Saturday and only a Saturday, according to the pagan Roman calendar--or else you are disobeying the commandments--that is pure silliness.

 

[from scratch]

Why do you refuse to see what is so clearly set before you? It is common knowledge that the 10 Commandments written by the finger of God himself defined what is moral vs amoral. Its defines right and wrong.

One thing I don't understand is your constant personal attack approach.

Loving is not a moral idea or obligation. Because one demands love doesn't make it moral. OTH manifesting hate such as murder or some other violation of another is sin and immoral. Having a relationship or not having a relationship is neither moral or immoral. A relationship may be immoral in conduct by the act of adultery. I have no relationship with the clerk at the store. This doesn't translate into a love/hate thing.

Yes I know very well God wrote the 10 Cs with His very own finger.

I also know that circumcision supercedes the 4th commandment.

I find it very interesting when Jesus was asked what is the great(est) commandment, He replied with something from the law of Moses as you say and not the 10 Cs.

I find it interesting that you push the 10 Cs and especially the 4th while refusing to do as it states on the stone tablets.

Are you decieving yourself? You claim to observe the Sabbath of the Lord thy God and refuse to do so. The reason some state most of Christianity don't observe the sabbath is because of inconvience. Does this not apply to you by your selfish refusal to deny the modern conviences and legalisms used to avoid compliance? Same thing the Pharisees did.

Seems there is denial of God's Holy Word in refusing to accept the testimony of God (Jesus) about the NC as promised by Jeremiah who stated it would not be like the previous covenant with not according to.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by TruthWave7 Why do you refuse to see what is so clearly set before you? It is common knowledge that the 10 Commandments written by the finger of God himself defined what is moral vs amoral. Its defines right and wrong.

One thing I don't understand is your constant personal attack approach..

He could be using "you" in the plural, tho I know he can't be talking to me.
I got me some new glasses, so I can clearly see much better

 

[TruthWave7]

The Ten Commandments are very clear, and Christians should follow them. It's just the claim that you absolutely have to observe Sabbath on a Saturday and only a Saturday, according to the pagan Roman calendar--or else you are disobeying the commandments--that is pure silliness.

It is pure silliness for you to say that we cannot keep the Sabbath day holy in 2012. God himself has preserved the 7 day week, even Encyclopedia Britannica verifies that fact.

The Encyclopedia Britannica states “the week is a period of seven days, having no reference whatever to the celestial motions--a circumstance to which it owes its unalterable uniformity... It has been employed from time immemorial in almost all eastern countries.”

“The continuous seven day cycle…runs throughout history paying no attention whatsoever to the moon and its phases…”

 

[bbbbbbb]

It is pure silliness for you to say that we cannot keep the Sabbath day holy in 2012. God himself has preserved the 7 day week, even Encyclopedia Britannica verifies that fact.

The Encyclopedia Britannica states “the week is a period of seven days, having no reference whatever to the celestial motions--a circumstance to which it owes its unalterable uniformity... It has been employed from time immemorial in almost all eastern countries.”

“The continuous seven day cycle…runs throughout history paying no attention whatsoever to the moon and its phases…”

If as you say, "It is pure silliness for you to say that we cannot keep the Sabbath day holy in 2012." why don't you and your denomination do so then? You have reinvented the Sabbath after your own image and set it up on your altar and are bowing low in worship of it.