Eternal Fire SAVES not TORTURES (2)

[Timothew]

Alice: All Scotsmen enjoy haggis.
Bob: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!
Alice: Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis.
​

Alice: No parable can contain a name.
Bob: The Parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable and it contains a name!
Alice: No actual parable contains a name.
​

The trouble is we are disagreeing on the definition of parable.
Here is the accepted definition of Parable from Merriam-Webster:
"a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle."

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man fits the definition perfectly. But then, in order to say the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable, the definition of parable is changed to " a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle that doesn't contain a name."

So then a person could point out many secular storys that are commonly accepted as parables usually do have names (and I have done this). Then the definition gets changed again to "a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle that doesn't contain a name and is included in the Bible."

Why don't we just include this in the definition?
"a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle that doesn't contain a name and is included in the Bible and isn't the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man".

 

[createdtoworship]

Alice: All Scotsmen enjoy haggis.
Bob: My uncle is a Scotsman, and he doesn't like haggis!
Alice: Well, all true Scotsmen like haggis.
​

Alice: No parable can contain a name.
Bob: The Parable of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable and it contains a name!
Alice: No actual parable contains a name.
​

The trouble is we are disagreeing on the definition of parable.
Here is the accepted definition of Parable from Merriam-Webster:
"a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle."

The parable of Lazarus and the rich man fits the definition perfectly. But then, in order to say the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man is not a parable, the definition of parable is changed to " a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle that doesn't contain a name."

So then a person could point out many secular storys that are commonly accepted as parables usually do have names (and I have done this). Then the definition gets changed again to "a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle that doesn't contain a name and is included in the Bible."

Why don't we just include this in the definition?
"a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle that doesn't contain a name and is included in the Bible and isn't the Parable of Lazarus and the rich man".

because "ficticious" is what you want it to be
that is the whole point
you are wrong, all you have to show is one example other than lazerus and the rich man where a name is used in a parable. And we will leave it alone.

 

[he-man]

that doesn't link the two verses that there was a promise afar off and that promise was heaven, it just says it was a promise afar off....could be any promise, including the promised land.

Where do you think the heavenly city is if not the Holy City of Jerusalem, ZION.

Luk 11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, consecrated be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so on earth.

Isa 2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Zec 8:3 Thus saith the LORD; I am returned unto Zion, and will dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and Jerusalem shall be called a city of truth; and the mountain of the LORD of hosts the holy mountain.

Eze 48:35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there.

Jer 3:17 At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

 

[Timothew]

because "ficticious" is what you want it to be
that is the whole point
you are wrong, all you have to show is one example other than lazerus and the rich man where a name is used in a parable. And we will leave it alone.

Assignment: Show one example where a name is used in a parable.
Definition: Parable: (Merriam-Webster):
"a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle."


One day Foolish Jack's mother sent him out to work for a farmer, after a long day of work out in the feilds, the farmer paid Jack a penny. Jack put the penny in his handkerchief, but on the way home he lost his handkerchief along with the penny. His mother scolded him and told Jack that he should have put the penny in his pocket.

The next day Jack went out to work at the dairy. After his day of work, the dairyman paid him with a jug of fresh milk. He didn't want to lose the milk, like he lost the penny, so remembering his mother's advice about putting the penny in his pocket, he decided to put the jug of milk in his pocket. Of course in doing so, the milk spilled out of the jug.

When he arrived home his mother scolded him again, and told him he should have carried the jug of milk home on his head.

The next day jack went to work for a man who kept hens, and at the end of his work day he was given eggs as payment. Not wanting to spill them like the milk, he remembered his mother's advice, and decided to carry the eggs home on his head. Of course they rolled off his head and cracked on the ground.

Again his mother scolded him for losing his pay, and said that he should have carried the eggs home in his hands.

The next day Jack spent the day working at a hog farm, and was paid with a roly-poly piglet. He remembered his mother's advice about carrying the eggs home in his hands, and not wanting to lose his piglet, he tried carrying it home. The pig was far to wiggly, and broke free and ran away.

His mother was getting pretty angry by now, she told Jack he should have led the pig home on a string.​

The next day Jack did not want to lose any more of his wages, so after his day of work with the butcher, when he was paid a nice joint of meat, he tied a string to the meat, and led it home. Of course the whole way dogs and cats were nibbling at it, and it became ruined with dirt.​

Jack's mother called him a foolish boy, and told him he should have carried the joint of meat home on his shoulder. She was so angry at him, she sent Jack to bed with no supper.​

The next day Jack's luck was about to change. After a long day of work for a goatherd, he was given a goat as payment. Remembering his mother's advice about the joint of meat, he hoisted the goat onto his shoulders, and made his way for home.​

It happens that everyday, on his way home, Jack passed by the home of a very wealthy man, who had a daughter who never laughed. The wealthy man always said that the first person to make his daughter laugh should marry her. The daughter had been watching Jack on his way home every day.​

Watching him carry eggs on his head, a jug of milk in his pocket, struggling with the piglet, and dragging the meat had all been very entertaining to her. The day he came by struggling with a goat on his shoulders, with his legs buckling beneath him, finally caused her to burst out in laughter.

That is how Jack found his wife. She was just as intelligent as she was wealthy, and taught Jack how to think for himself. They lived happily ever after.


That settles it, as you promised.

 

[createdtoworship]

Assignment: Show one example where a name is used in a parable.
Definition: Parable: (Merriam-Webster):
"a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle."


One day Foolish Jack's mother sent him out to work for a farmer, after a long day of work out in the feilds, the farmer paid Jack a penny. Jack put the penny in his handkerchief, but on the way home he lost his handkerchief along with the penny. His mother scolded him and told Jack that he should have put the penny in his pocket.

The next day Jack went out to work at the dairy. After his day of work, the dairyman paid him with a jug of fresh milk. He didn't want to lose the milk, like he lost the penny, so remembering his mother's advice about putting the penny in his pocket, he decided to put the jug of milk in his pocket. Of course in doing so, the milk spilled out of the jug.

When he arrived home his mother scolded him again, and told him he should have carried the jug of milk home on his head.

The next day jack went to work for a man who kept hens, and at the end of his work day he was given eggs as payment. Not wanting to spill them like the milk, he remembered his mother's advice, and decided to carry the eggs home on his head. Of course they rolled off his head and cracked on the ground.

Again his mother scolded him for losing his pay, and said that he should have carried the eggs home in his hands.

The next day Jack spent the day working at a hog farm, and was paid with a roly-poly piglet. He remembered his mother's advice about carrying the eggs home in his hands, and not wanting to lose his piglet, he tried carrying it home. The pig was far to wiggly, and broke free and ran away.

His mother was getting pretty angry by now, she told Jack he should have led the pig home on a string.​

The next day Jack did not want to lose any more of his wages, so after his day of work with the butcher, when he was paid a nice joint of meat, he tied a string to the meat, and led it home. Of course the whole way dogs and cats were nibbling at it, and it became ruined with dirt.​

Jack's mother called him a foolish boy, and told him he should have carried the joint of meat home on his shoulder. She was so angry at him, she sent Jack to bed with no supper.​

The next day Jack's luck was about to change. After a long day of work for a goatherd, he was given a goat as payment. Remembering his mother's advice about the joint of meat, he hoisted the goat onto his shoulders, and made his way for home.​

It happens that everyday, on his way home, Jack passed by the home of a very wealthy man, who had a daughter who never laughed. The wealthy man always said that the first person to make his daughter laugh should marry her. The daughter had been watching Jack on his way home every day.​

Watching him carry eggs on his head, a jug of milk in his pocket, struggling with the piglet, and dragging the meat had all been very entertaining to her. The day he came by struggling with a goat on his shoulders, with his legs buckling beneath him, finally caused her to burst out in laughter.

That is how Jack found his wife. She was just as intelligent as she was wealthy, and taught Jack how to think for himself. They lived happily ever after.


That settles it, as you promised.

oh so now all those parables are inspired words of God? No wonder your annihilationist.

 

[Timothew]

oh so now all those parables are inspired words of God? No wonder your annihilationist.

The assignment didn't say "a parable from the bible".

I showed you a parable that contained a name that wasn't the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, thus proving that a parable can contain a name. Now you are moving the goalposts just as I predicted.

Here's my challenge to you. If you pass, I will leave it alone.
Show me an example from the bible of a parable that contains the name of Lazarus and has a rich man and dogs in it, but it is not the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

 

[createdtoworship]

The assignment didn't say "a parable from the bible".

I showed you a parable that contained a name that wasn't the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man, thus proving that a parable can contain a name. Now you are moving the goalposts just as I predicted.

Here's my challenge to you. If you pass, I will leave it alone.
Show me an example from the bible of a parable that contains the name of Lazarus and has a rich man and dogs in it, but it is not the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

end of conversation

 

[Leggomyegolas]

I asked a question a few posts ago, that I haven't seen a response to. If the verse in Hebrews that says all the OT saints haven't yet received the promises of God, refers to them not being in Heaven yet, then where were Enoch and Elijah translated to? At Jesus' transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with him. Where did they come from, and where did they go after they finished their discussion?

 

[Timothew]

I asked a question a few posts ago, that I haven't seen a response to. If the verse in Hebrews that says all the OT saints haven't yet received the promises of God, refers to them not being in Heaven yet, then where were Enoch and Elijah translated to? At Jesus' transfiguration, Moses and Elijah appeared and spoke with him. Where did they come from, and where did they go after they finished their discussion?

According to Jesus, that was a vision.

 

[Timothew]

end of conversation

So the claim "a parable never contains names" is an example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

 

[Leggomyegolas]

According to Jesus, that was a vision.

Maybe. The greek word horama translated as "vision" in the KJV is also translated as "the sight" in Acts 7:31, "When Moses saw it [the burning bush], he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,"
But it can also refer to a vision of things that the person saw, but didn't physically happen. It's interesting to me that horama only appears in the book of Acts, and one time in Matthew, when Jesus tells Peter, James, and John to "tell the vision to no man." Other translations render it as "Don't tell anyone what you have seen." So, it's a little ambiguous as to which form of horama is intended.

In any case, that still leaves Enoch and Elijah being carried up to ____ without dying. If not Heaven, then where?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Maybe. The greek word horama translated as "vision" in the KJV is also translated as "the sight" in Acts 7:31, "When Moses saw it [the burning bush], he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,"

In any case, that still leaves Enoch and Elijah being carried up to ____ without dying. If not Heaven, then where?

The same place the saints are caught up to in 1 Thess 4, the AIR:

1 Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air/aera <109>

Hey, lookie here! The 7th vial is being poured out into the "air". How can that be?

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh messenger did pour out his vial to the air/aera <109>, and there came forth a great voice from the Sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne, saying, "It hath become!"

 

[strangertoo]

Maybe. The greek word horama translated as "vision" in the KJV is also translated as "the sight" in Acts 7:31, "When Moses saw it [the burning bush], he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,"
But it can also refer to a vision of things that the person saw, but didn't physically happen. It's interesting to me that horama only appears in the book of Acts, and one time in Matthew, when Jesus tells Peter, James, and John to "tell the vision to no man." Other translations render it as "Don't tell anyone what you have seen." So, it's a little ambiguous as to which form of horama is intended.

In any case, that still leaves Enoch and Elijah being carried up to ____ without dying. If not Heaven, then where?

the 'paradise of God' is called the 'third heaven' by Paul as in this world and the next [but not in endless other worlds created] it is the third heaven [with no corresponding earth, unlike the other two]

that is where the 'tree of life' is, the endlessness of being, but clearly it is not a place, not physical... it is beyond created things, it is simply the spirit, that which creates endlessly, exists endlessly, God , everything that is which does not end, where we come from, where we are in essence [for life is just a creation, a 'projection of the spirit, a 'dream' or illuusion by God about being able to end which He cannot do...

if you want the ABSOLUTE Truth, simply stop choosing sin, choose Love of all, be ONE because there is nothing else to be in life except EMPTY through conflict of sinning... John 16:13

as God instructs, the very first commandment, do NOT make models of it , do not think it is outer space or another created world, it is not, it is just God, that which exists and creates endlessly, that which alone is worthy of respect/worship as being everything that is not going to end...

one only gets to stay there after death if one has perfected Love, become ONE , in life , else one is resurrected to life again [Rev 20:13- ALL are resurrected from death, NONE are left in hell as sinners falsely claim in mass religion of sinners, subtle lies of Satan to scare folks]

death is just a sleep until life restarts, the END of life/death is TRANSLATION to spirit once one chooses to love in life, no longer choosing sin at all... as the scripture says, sinners do not KNOW, so why listen to them even if they dress up as OT priests and pretend they are holy as they sin against man and God [and themselves!] ?

the only ones who know are SAINTS and they are FEW in this life [Matt 7:14, Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-8] , and they know not from scripture,but from God DIRECTLY [John 16:13] as Jesus promised all who actually follow him and Love, no longer sinning against God and men and themselves...

sin is UNLOVING , no sinner knows God, so don't listen to sinners... listen to god, stop sinning and listen...

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1 John 4:16 ... God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

 

[dollarsbill]

Pretty simple, one parable does. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

Literal people, literal account. No proof whatsoever of being a parable. So that make a total of zero Biblical parables that use literal people. Not even one.

 

[strangertoo]

since the dead cannot speak until resurrected and certainly don't get thirsty and know nothing in death , cannot suffer in any way ... this fake 'parable' which contains a irrelevant name unlike true parables and the rest of scripture , is an insert, the rest of scripture and its lack of any possible meaning proves it is a fake...equally it is written only once unlike the points made by God in scripture :-

2 Corinthians 13:1 ... In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

 

[dollarsbill]

since the dead cannot speak until resurrected and certainly don't get thirsty and know nothing in death , cannot suffer in any way ... this fake 'parable' which contains a irrelevant name unlike true parables and the rest of scripture , is an insert, the rest of scripture and its lack of any possible meaning proves it is a fake...equally it is written only once unlike the points made by God in scripture :-

I didn't say it's a parable. It isn't. Jesus didn't make up horror stories.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

since the dead cannot speak until resurrected and certainly don't get thirsty and know nothing in death , cannot suffer in any way ... this fake 'parable' which contains a irrelevant name unlike true parables and the rest of scripture , is an insert, the rest of scripture and its lack of any possible meaning proves it is a fake...equally it is written only once unlike the points made by God in scripture :-

2 Corinthians 13:1 ... In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

Wow!
What can I say but, just delete that parable out of your own Bible

....

 

[strangertoo]

I didn't say it's a parable. It isn't. Jesus didn't make up horror stories.

Jesus didn't make up anything , but there is terror to come for ALL sinners because sin does have consequences ... life is being destroyed on this planet ate mass extinction rates NOW ....scientists have warned it will destroy our civilisations , some even admit we are committed already to having destroyed ourselves [our food is the life we are destroying by means of faith in the fake money of capitalism - and it cannot be stopped]

in any case the scripture details that the end of thsi world is the most terrible time man will ever have known... and only saints leave with Jesus before that time of the 'wrath of God', leaving man to suffer consequence of sin because man must come to see the truth about sin, where it leads, so men will choose Love in the next life more easily... it is nothing like your horror story of meaningless endless torture though, it has a very real purpose in bringing countless many to salvation [Rev 7:9-10] who clearly are destroyed in this life [Matt 7:13]

 

[strangertoo]

Wow!
What can I say but, just delete that parable out of your own Bible

....

and if you want the absolute proof, simply stop sinning and get the whole Truth given free by God Himself - John 16:13 - simply by actually following sinless Jesus ... his promise on that , and why he had no need of any scribes writing down what he said :-

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

all this just for giving up sin that leads one only to empty lives and death...

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus Wow!
What can I say but, just delete that parable out of your own Bible

....

and if you want the absolute proof, simply stop sinning and get the whole Truth given free by God Himself - John 16:13 - simply by actually following sinless Jesus ... his promise on that , and why he had no need of any scribes writing down what he said :-

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

all this just for giving up sin that leads one only to empty lives and death...

The Holy Ghost is the one that told me it was a true God inspired parable

....