When Will Christ Return?

[Achilles6129]

That's not true! We are Israel now. All Abraham's blessings have moved to the spiritual Kingdom of God, that Kingdom that is NOT of this world, that Kingdom that will only be fully realised in the New Heavens and New Earth, that Kingdom that is only visible as it quietly submits to Christ's reign in our hearts.

Israel's re-establishment in 1948 has nothing to do with the bible and everything to do with a specific people group fleeing Nazi persecution and wanting a secular state to keep them secure. Israel persecutes the largest concentration camps in the world, Gaza and the West Bank. Israel are one of many 'beast' states, directly out of Rev 13, as they persecute those in their care. And futurists go and put them on some kind of pedestal! It makes me ashamed to be a Christian sometimes.:o

Israel is very important to God. This is shown in Zech. 14, where God fights for Israel against the Antichrist and his armies. There is no question that the re-establishment of Israel in 1948 had everything to do with the Bible, since Zech. 14 (which happens at the very end) could not occur without Israel existing as a Jewish state.

God will not allow physical Jerusalem to be destroyed, for 'it is the city of the great King.' It is God's city, and God will not let it be destroyed. God is definitely with Israel.

 

[doright]

Israel is very important to God. This is shown in Zech. 14, where God fights for Israel against the Antichrist and his armies. There is no question that the re-establishment of Israel in 1948 had everything to do with the Bible, since Zech. 14 (which happens at the very end) could not occur without Israel existing as a Jewish state.

God will not allow physical Jerusalem to be destroyed, for 'it is the city of the great King.' It is God's city, and God will not let it be destroyed. God is definitely with Israel.

amen and amen the church has not replaced ISRAEL

THE GOD THAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT CHANGES HIS MIND A LOT.

 

[eclipsenow]

amen and amen the church has not replaced ISRAEL

THE GOD THAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT CHANGES HIS MIND A LOT.

Hi DoRight,

if we have not replaced Israel, and if this is not in the bible, can you explain why many early church fathers clearly taught that we DID replace Israel in the scheme of things? Are you even familiar with some of these famous statements?

While some of the early church fathers may have been Premil, they were NOT Dispensationalist. They really sound like Covenant theologians.

EG: Justyn Martyr believed we are the true spiritual descendants of Abraham. The WHOLE bible is a unified purpose. From the beginning to the end it all focuses on Jesus Christ.

CHAPTER CXXXV -- CHRIST IS KING OF ISRAEL, AND CHRISTIANS ARE THE ISRAELITIC RACE.
Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles and yourselves shall trust? or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race. But let us attend rather to the very word: 'And I will bring forth,' He says, 'the seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah: and it shall inherit My holy mountain; and Mine Elect and My servants shall possess the inheritance, and shall dwell there; and there shall be folds of flocks in the thicket, and the valley of Achor shall be a resting-place of cattle for the people who have sought Me. But as for you, who forsake Me, and forget My holy mountain, and prepare a table for demons, and fill out drink for the demon, I shall give you to the sword. You shall all fall with a slaughter; for I called you, and you hearkened not, and did evil before me, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.' Such are the words of Scripture; understand, therefore, that the seed of Jacob now referred to is something else, and not, as may be supposed, spoken of your people.
Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Roberts-Donaldson)

Irenaeus: "But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessings of Esau. For which cause his brother suffered the plots and persecutions of a brother, just as the Church suffers this self-same thing from the Jews."

Ambrosiaster: "Thus whoever believes that Christ Jesus was promised to Abraham is a child of Abraham and a brother of Isaac. Abraham was told that all the nations would be blessed in his offspring. This happened not in Isaac, but in him who was promised to Abraham in Isaac, that is, Christ, in whom all the nations are blessed when they believe.

 

[Douggg]

Hi DoRight,

if we have not replaced Israel, and if this is not in the bible, can you explain why many early church fathers clearly taught that we DID replace Israel in the scheme of things?

Which of them claimed to be speaking on the behalf of God?

Doug

 

[doright]

we are grafted in we did not become the tree

you really don't understand God

the church did not start at Pennicost it just took on the name there

Jesus was the chief corner stone, but not the whole foundation

all of the prophets were the foundation, so God had started his church all the way back to Adam he was the first prophet,

he told the people about the beginning and how to make sacrafices and about God

and i would say that the roof of the church will be the 144,000 Hebrews

GOD IS THE SAME YESTERDAY, TODAY AND FOREVER. and his plans do not change
his promise to Abraham is still forever.
Jesus will set on Davids throne in Israel , not New York or London, or Rome

 

[dfw69]

I don't understand replacement theology...granted i never studied....but what are people trying to say....that god cast off his people Israel forever?.....that he will not make an everlasting covenant with the tribes of Israel?....that Israel is cursed forever and they will never obtain salvation or the promised?.....what is this doctrine ? ...of god or Satan?

one thing im sure of.....god has not cast Israel off forever...and if the casting off brings salvation to us gentiles ....what will be the receiving of Israel?....life from the dead

Israel will turn to god again and the kingdom will be realized in the future....and god shall give the tribes of Israel their promised land....Israel was broken off but Israel will be grafted back into the vine being of the natural branch

 

[doright]

I don't understand replacement theology...granted i never studied....but what are people trying to say....that god cast off his people Israel forever?.....that he will not make an everlasting covenant with the tribes of Israel?....that Israel is cursed forever and they will never obtain salvation or the promised?.....what is this doctrine ? ...of god or Satan?

one thing im sure of.....god has not cast Israel off forever...and if the casting off brings salvation to us gentiles ....what will be the receiving of Israel?....life from the dead

Israel will turn to god again and the kingdom will be realized in the future....and god shall give the tribes of Israel their promised land....Israel was broken off but Israel will be grafted back into the vine being of the natural branch

yes sir you are on the right track

 

[doright]

Rom.11;1 I say then ,Hath God cast away his people? God forbid, for i also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham

v5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant to the ejection of grace.

v11 I say then , H ave they stumbled that they shold fall, God fobid; but rather through their fall salvation is come ubto the Gentiles,FOR TO PROVOKE THEM TO JEALOUSY.

 

[Interplanner]

In the 'does it matter' department, everytime this came up with Christ, it was diverted to our task. Lk. 24, Acts 1. The news of justification needs to be given out; it doesn't matter whether we know, what polls say, what "indexes" say. You never find the apostles asking or dealing with it again. They "got" it (Christ's answer); we are still trying to figure it all out. I interviewed Dr. Walvoord once on this and he said 'not knowing can't possibly be what Acts 1 is saying.' Really?

--Inter

 

[Douggg]

In the 'does it matter' department, everytime this came up with Christ, it was diverted to our task. Lk. 24, Acts 1. The news of justification needs to be given out; it doesn't matter whether we know, what polls say, what "indexes" say. You never find the apostles asking or dealing with it again. They "got" it (Christ's answer); we are still trying to figure it all out. I interviewed Dr. Walvoord once on this and he said 'not knowing can't possibly be what Acts 1 is saying.' Really?

--Inter

Please simplify your posts. And communicate clearly. You have too many ambiguous "it" 's in your sentence structure. And you give incomplete information to the reader about what you are referring to. Specifically, for example:

"I interviewed Dr. Walvoord once on this and he said 'not knowing can't possibly be what Acts 1 is saying.' Really?"

"on this" what? If you are trying to irritate me, you are doing a great job...

Doug

 

[eclipsenow]

Rom.11;1 I say then ,Hath God cast away his people? God forbid, for i also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham

v5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant to the ejection of grace.

v11 I say then , H ave they stumbled that they shold fall, God fobid; but rather through their fall salvation is come ubto the Gentiles,FOR TO PROVOKE THEM TO JEALOUSY.

Exactly. And your point is...? When does it say "But Israel remains a valid way to reach me, continue sacrifices, continue the law, it's all pleasing unto me?" It doesn't! Israel and the law and the sacrifices are OVER! Jesus fulfilled and finished them. Rather, the emphasis of Romans is that both ethnic Jews and Gentiles TOGETHER become one forgiven people. Another apostle calls the church "a royal people, holy nation, a people belonging to God!" James addresses the church as the '12 tribes'. Can you see what they are doing? Can you dig it?

I see absolutely no grounds for anything in the bible now having anything to say about Israel, now or in the future. WE are Israel now.

 

[Interplanner]

the "it" is the apostles question in Acts 1 which, deja vu, is the topic of this thread. Once they got his answer (that we are here to recieve the Spirits power to dispense the Gospel), the topic never comes up again. I find no indication that the NT is trying to answer that question (the topic of this thread), no matter how many people ask it, no matter how anxious we might be (people in other generations had just as much uncertainty). I find almost no similarity between what NT people thought eschatology was and today's pursuit.

--Inter
MCS in NT background, Regent College, 1987
Interplans Books and Publications

 

[eclipsenow]

the "it" is the apostles question in Acts 1 which, deja vu, is the topic of this thread. Once they got his answer (that we are here to recieve the Spirits power to dispense the Gospel), the topic never comes up again. I find no indication that the NT is trying to answer that question (the topic of this thread), no matter how many people ask it, no matter how anxious we might be (people in other generations had just as much uncertainty). I find almost no similarity between what NT people thought eschatology was and today's pursuit.

--Inter
MCS in NT background, Regent College, 1987
Interplans Books and Publications

Well said!

 

[doright]

Exactly. And your point is...? When does it say "But Israel remains a valid way to reach me, continue sacrifices, continue the law, it's all pleasing unto me?" It doesn't! Israel and the law and the sacrifices are OVER! Jesus fulfilled and finished them. Rather, the emphasis of Romans is that both ethnic Jews and Gentiles TOGETHER become one forgiven people. Another apostle calls the church "a royal people, holy nation, a people belonging to God!" James addresses the church as the '12 tribes'. Can you see what they are doing? Can you dig it?

I see absolutely no grounds for anything in the bible now having anything to say about Israel, now or in the future. WE are Israel now.

At the time James wrote his letter the major part of the church was made up of Israel, Paul had not had time to covert many Gentiles by that time.

SIR YOU TOTALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND GOD, those books you quote from I would say are an abomination before God,and they need to be thrown away.

where in James does it address the Church as the 12 Tribes of Israel???????????

this God you are talking about is not a covenant keeper
when my God makes a covenant it is for ever, and things in the covenant do not changes
how can I trust a God that changes all the time,
what you are saying about God he doesn't know the future very well, and has to make ajustments all the time
YOUR GOD IS NOT BIG ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

[zeke37]

At the time James wrote his letter the major part of the church was made up of Israel, Paul had not had time to covert many Gentiles by that time.

SIR YOU TOTALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND GOD, those books you quote from I would say are an abomination before God,and they need to be thrown away.

where in James does it address the Church as the 12 Tribes of Israel???????????

this God you are talking about is not a covenant keeper
when my God makes a covenant it is for ever, and things in the covenant do not changes
how can I trust a God that changes all the time,
what you are saying about God he doesn't know the future very well, and has to make ajustments all the time
YOUR GOD IS NOT BIG ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

1James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

this is clearly about the church, clearly called the 12 tribes scattered abroad

 

[eclipsenow]

At the time James wrote his letter the major part of the church was made up of Israel, Paul had not had time to covert many Gentiles by that time.

He didn't have time to convert many of them either.

SIR YOU TOTALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND GOD, those books you quote from I would say are an abomination before God,and they need to be thrown away.

They're clearer and more convincing than anything you've said much of which I find inconsistent with the gospel of Christ and themselves an abomination. But we're not going to get into name calling, are we?

where in James does it address the Church as the 12 Tribes of Israel???????????

1 James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.

this God you are talking about is not a covenant keeper

He sure is! Read Romans 4:13. Where in the Old Testament does it say Abraham inherited the WHOLE WORLD? It doesn't. The promises in the OT were limited to the land. In the NT the promises expand to include this whole world and even the world beyond!

when my God makes a covenant it is for ever, and things in the covenant do not changes

Oh, so I need to run out and kill a sheep for my sin? What's a temple these days? "I will destroy the temple and raise it again in 3 days". Or try this: "My body is the temple". Oh, and of course, as we are in Christ we take on these characteristics. "You are the temple of God!" We could speak of sacrifices (we become living sacrifices as we trust in Jesus sacrifice), Mt Zion (we meet around a spiritual Mt Zion as we meet together in Church before our Holy God), Priests (we are ALL priests before God!), and many other things: all the OT promises and themes of Israel are lifted up and translated in the NT.

how can I trust a God that changes all the time,

Well, calling God untrustworthy is your business. I'm not doing that. For me it's NOT that God has changed, but that Jesus saving his worldwide kingdom (the church) was God's plan ALL ALONG!

what you are saying about God he doesn't know the future very well, and has to make adjustments all the time

No, what I am saying is that you haven't recognised how the whole OT looks forward to Jesus and the whole NT looks back on the gospel events of Jesus. You haven't worked out how the OT and NT relate to each other. I'm left scratching my head as to what you believe Jesus actually DID on the cross?

 

[Achilles6129]

It is true that Christians are a spiritual Israel. That is why Christ chose 12 disciples (to mimic the twelve patriarchs), was crucified on Passover (the time of the slaughter of the passover lamb), etc. There are many parallels.

However, it is also true that God is still with Israel. Obviously, it was God's doing that Israel was founded in May of 1948. Jerusalem is called the 'city of the great King' by Christ. God defends Israel in the latter days in Zech. 14, Ezek. 38-39, etc.

This is why Israel has never lost a war since her inception. Any nation that comes against Jerusalem will be destroyed by God. There are literally dozens of Scriptures that support this.

 

[Interplanner]

I'm not aware of anything obvious about the 1948 founding. it was almost done earlier. I'm aware of those passages but I don't look at them without checking the NT interp of them.

It's important to do that because I have had a messianic Jew tell me that the woman at the well (Jn. 4) was offered water that was actually stirred/moving. The reason he did this was so that Zech 14 would not have anything to do with the water of life offered by Jesus in John 4 and 7.

Why would not losing a war since it began mean anything except shrewd planning and use of the latest technology? Yes, there are OT passages that anticipate protection...but that must be adapted to the mission envisioned for Israel (and all nations) once the Gospel arrives. Yes, Rome disintegrated later, but there was a practical reason for the calamity of the Jewish War in the 6th decade AD. And the idea of 'the nation that comes against her will be destroyed' doesn't allow for destruction 300 years later; it meant present protection--as long as that was the intended plan. I don't see where it is.

I do think Paul saw, for a short while, that there might be a way for Israel in the 1st century to be safe from Judaizing hot heads by the Gospel, but it was refused and Israel was at risk of confrontation with Rome.

--Inter
Interplans.net

 

[eclipsenow]

It is true that Christians are a spiritual Israel. That is why Christ chose 12 disciples (to mimic the twelve patriarchs), was crucified on Passover (the time of the slaughter of the passover lamb), etc. There are many parallels.

However, it is also true that God is still with Israel. Obviously, it was God's doing that Israel was founded in May of 1948. Jerusalem is called the 'city of the great King' by Christ. God defends Israel in the latter days in Zech. 14, Ezek. 38-39, etc.

This is why Israel has never lost a war since her inception. Any nation that comes against Jerusalem will be destroyed by God. There are literally dozens of Scriptures that support this.

Can you justify this theological position from the New Testament?

 

[eclipsenow]

I'm not aware of anything obvious about the 1948 founding. it was almost done earlier. I'm aware of those passages but I don't look at them without checking the NT interp of them.

It's important to do that because I have had a messianic Jew tell me that the woman at the well (Jn. 4) was offered water that was actually stirred/moving. The reason he did this was so that Zech 14 would not have anything to do with the water of life offered by Jesus in John 4 and 7.

Why would not losing a war since it began mean anything except shrewd planning and use of the latest technology? Yes, there are OT passages that anticipate protection...but that must be adapted to the mission envisioned for Israel (and all nations) once the Gospel arrives. Yes, Rome disintegrated later, but there was a practical reason for the calamity of the Jewish War in the 6th decade AD. And the idea of 'the nation that comes against her will be destroyed' doesn't allow for destruction 300 years later; it meant present protection--as long as that was the intended plan. I don't see where it is.

I do think Paul saw, for a short while, that there might be a way for Israel in the 1st century to be safe from Judaizing hot heads by the Gospel, but it was refused and Israel was at risk of confrontation with Rome.

--Inter
Interplans.net

Well said! Also IF God still has/had big plans for Israel, why are they so absent from the New Testament? Why are the BIG books about the relationship between the Old and New Covenants so SILENT about the nation of Israel? Romans and Hebrews being a case in point. Sure there's Paul's big discussion about how 'all Israel will be saved', but I take it after switching back and forth and back and forth between Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians and Gentile Christian's he is emphasising that ALL Israel will be saved. (All the church, both ethnic Jew and ethnic Gentile). This is consistent with the way James addresses the whole church as "To the 12 tribes" and Jesus calling 12 apostles etc.

So why is the New Testament so SILENT on Israel, on the land, on 1948? Straight away the average futurist / Dispensationalist will run back to the OT and completely ignore the fact that the New Testament FULFILS all this spiritually in 'now and not yet' spiritual reality that is still to be consummated when the Lord Returns on Judgement Day, and ushers in the New Heavens and New Earth.