When Will Christ Return?

[eclipsenow]

The marriage supper of the lamb event....which is certainly similar to the idea of the rapture might occur pretty soon but the full fledged kingdom of Shalom/peace over all the earth might take some time.

The analogy might be that the fall Jewish festivals occur in the seventh month but five more months of rainy winter season occur before the spring?!?!

I see no evidence for any gaps between this age and the age to come. When the Lord returns, EVERYTHING HAPPENS!

Covenant Amils see 'Judgement Day' as this one, huge, inescapable and instantaneous day. From the explicitly clear statements in the New Testament about the Last Day we know that when Jesus returns, the dead are raised, all is revealed and judged, and sin, Satan, and death are done away with. Heaven meets earth in a glorious new reality where we will exist in perfect harmony with our Lord for all eternity! There's just no room for a "half eternal, half mortal" merely geopolitical reign of Jesus on earth. The language around the Lord's return is too dramatic and final for that.

1: BOTH BELIEVERS AND UNBELIEVERS ARE RAISED TOGETHER ON THE LAST DAY AND THEN SAVED OR JUDGED!
(not 1000 years apart)
John 6:39 = Christians are raised for eternal life on the LAST DAY. Not 1007 years before the last day: not before some 7 year 'tribulation' and 1000 year "Millennium". We are raised on THE LAST DAY!
John 11:24 = Martha knows Lazarus will rise on the LAST DAY
John 12:48 = Jesus Judges on the LAST DAY
John 5:28 = All raised together for either salvation or judgement
Luke 17:24-28 = Jesus return will be OBVIOUS and inescapable: like lightning across the sky. Will be like days of Noah, when they were either taken and saved or left behind and DESTROYED.
Or like Lot, who were either saved or DESTROYED. In none of these examples were those 'Left Behind' able to continue their lives for 7 years! They were judged immediately. Noah didn't enter the ark and then 1000 years passed before the flood!
Matt 25:31-46 = the sorting of the sheep and the goats.
Matt 13:24-29 = weeds judged and burned and wheat saved.
1 Thess 4:13-17 = Christians are raised and saved forever.
1 Thess 5 = the ungodly are immediately judged!
2 Tim 4:1 = judge the living and the dead
Acts 17:31 = Jesus resurrection is PROOF that He will be the judge. (Because, I take it, resurrection demonstrates God's power over death and also precedes the final judgement!)
Psalm 2: his judgement will be sudden and will destroy all God's enemies
Matt: 16:27 = "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."


2. SATAN AND HIS MINIONS ALSO JUDGED
Rev 20:10 = at the end of this age the Devil is destroyed.
(Millennium = Symobolic of the perfect amount of time between the gospel events of Jesus incarnation and Jesus return as judge).

3. DEATH BANISHED, ETERNITY USHERED IN
As we have already seen above we are raised and then Judged to be innocent in Christ or damned forever. Then we are eternal beings!
Mark 10:30 = "in the age to come eternal life."
1 Cor 15:26 = "The last enemy to be destroyed is death".

4. DAY OF LORD = NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH
2 Peter 3:10-13 = DAY OF LORD = like a thief = "a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells."

5. THIS *REALLY* MESSES WITH MILLENNIAL IDEAS - THERE IS NO NEED OF MARRIAGE OR BABIES!
Luke 20:35: "But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection of the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,"
The Millennium cannot have both immortal resurrected Christians living alongside mortal sinners because:
* access to the age to come is via resurrection
* even if we 'smuggled them in' (so to speak) after a generation there would be no more mortals because there are no babies!

6. MORTAL BEINGS CANNOT ENTER THE 'ARRIVED' KINGDOM OF GOD!
(This is in contrast to the 'current' kingdom of God, the church, which is a spiritual kingdom 'not of this world'. When the kingdom actually arrives physically, mortality is put behind us).
1 Corinthians 15
"50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
* This means resurrection = changed into our immortal bodies = Death conquered at the SAME TIME as the Lord's return.

So what to do with the Millennium, and indeed, the whole book of Revelation?

My first recommendation would be Revelation Unwrapped by John Richardson. This is available from bookdepository.co.uk quite cheap, and is a short, clear book taking the Symbolist approach to Revelation. That is, unlike modern 'futurists', Revelation is full of biblical symbols and is not dependent on modern newspaper headlines and geopolitics to understand. It's all about the gospel, and is a cracker of a sermon encouraging all Christians in all ages that have ever had to live under suffering.

The next book I recommend is 'Apocalypse Now and then' by Dr Paul Barnett, which is a bit partial preterist and a bit Symbolist.
Apocalypse now and then: reading Revelation today: Amazon.co.uk: Paul BARNETT: Books
Paul Barnett sees some things like the beasts of Revelation as being historical Roman Emperors, but again I'm a little reluctant to believe the book is only understandable with a Phd in History! But he is very helpful in most chapters and does interpret a lot of the bible's Symbolism.

Or if you don't have the time buy and read these books, try the free sermons at Sydney Anglicans. The following link has sermons listed by book of the bible. Scan down to the end and download the sermons. You'll be amazed at the consistency of reading Revelation with the REST of the New Testament!
Christmas Message 2011 | Sydneyanglicans.net

Or if you REALLY want to go deep, check out the free audio lectures by Dr Kim Riddlebarger. There's probably about 30 hours of material entitled "Amillennialism 101" on the down the right hand column here.
Riddleblog - The Latest Post

 

[doright]

God's Plan Was For Man To Live Forever (no Death)
And That Plan Will Continue After The 1000 Years Of Clean Up Of The Earth, And Then Mortal Man Ill Continue On Forever Without Any Sin.

 

[Achilles6129]

Eclipsenow, I have not read the books you recommended, but I would recommend some commentaries on Revelation. I have three - Blount's, Osborne's, and Beale's. All three are excellent, and I would recommend any one of them.

 

[zeke37]

God's Plan Was For Man To Live Forever (no Death)
And That Plan Will Continue After The 1000 Years Of Clean Up Of The Earth, And Then Mortal Man Ill Continue On Forever Without Any Sin.

mortal man?
not according to 1Cor15

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
​

 

[eclipsenow]

God's Plan Was For Man To Live Forever (no Death)
And That Plan Will Continue After The 1000 Years Of Clean Up Of The Earth, And Then Mortal Man Ill Continue On Forever Without Any Sin.

There Is No Millennium Because It is Picture Language for the Perfect Amount of Time between The Lord's Ascension and His Return and I don't Have to Prove It but Can Just Assert It because I'm using Capital Letters All Wrong the Way You Do So I Don't Have to Prove Anything I Say.

 

[Gnarwhal]

There Is No Millennium Because It Is Picture Language For The Perfect Amount Of Time Between The Lord's Ascension And His Return And I don't Have To Prove It Cut Can Just Assert It Because I'm Using Capital Letters All Wrong The Way You Do So I Don't Have To Prove Anything I Say.

You missed a few , but still a good idea to get through.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[doright]

it is a real shame that you don't know god the way you do typing.

i am not a typest so i use all capital and the site is the one that changes

but how i type has nothing to do with what i say.

you should learn about god as you did typing

 

[DennisTate]

God's Plan Was For Man To Live Forever (no Death)
And That Plan Will Continue After The 1000 Years Of Clean Up Of The Earth, And Then Mortal Man Ill Continue On Forever Without Any Sin.

DoRight....I think that you have made an exceptionally important and powerful point here!!!!!!!!!


Isaiah 9:7

Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

 

[DennisTate]

I see no evidence for any gaps between this age and the age to come. When the Lord returns, EVERYTHING HAPPENS!

Covenant Amils see 'Judgement Day' as this one, huge, inescapable and instantaneous day. From the explicitly clear statements in the New Testament about the Last Day we know that when Jesus returns, the dead are raised, all is revealed and judged, and sin, Satan, and death are done away with. Heaven meets earth in a glorious new reality where we will exist in perfect harmony with our Lord for all eternity! There's just no room for a "half eternal, half mortal" merely geopolitical reign of Jesus on earth. The language around the Lord's return is too dramatic and final for that.

.......[/url]

In one sense I suppose you are partly correct because time is not at all as we humans tend to see it! We think of time as a straight line but there is powerful evidence that it actually branches....like the Jewish menorah!?!

But....for the humans who do not meet Rabbi Jesus/Yehoshua in the air at his coming there will sure appear to be a valid forward progression of events!!!

 

[DennisTate]

I see no evidence for any gaps between this age and the age to come. When the Lord returns, EVERYTHING HAPPENS!

.......
5. THIS *REALLY* MESSES WITH MILLENNIAL IDEAS - THERE IS NO NEED OF MARRIAGE OR BABIES!
Luke 20:35: "But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection of the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage,"
The Millennium cannot have both immortal resurrected Christians living alongside mortal sinners because:
* access to the age to come is via resurrection
* even if we 'smuggled them in' (so to speak) after a generation there would be no more mortals because there are no babies!

6. MORTAL BEINGS CANNOT ENTER THE 'ARRIVED' KINGDOM OF GOD!
(This is in contrast to the 'current' kingdom of God, the church, which is a spiritual kingdom 'not of this world'. When the kingdom actually arrives physically, mortality is put behind us).
1 Corinthians 15
"50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
* This means resurrection = changed into our immortal bodies = Death conquered at the SAME TIME as the Lord's return.

......Post[/url]

I must disagree on this assertion EclipseNow!

I feel rather strongly that during the full fledged era of Moshiach we will have glorified immortal former Christians and Jews able to interact with mere humans who are in many ways often their own great, great, great grandchildren?!

Those who receive their glorified immortal bodies will be unable to reproduce.....

I am open to the possibility that Dr. Richard Eby may have been given some valid understanding of this during his NDE:

Dr. Richard Eby

Reflexly I raised my arms in thanks and adoration for my Lord's love in showing me heaven's wonders which were mysteries to me. As I bowed my head, I noted a glowing pure-white gown which somehow I had not seen when I looked through it in search of organs! I was awed by its total weightlessness and silky softness. My raised arms had parted its overlapping folds for the moment, revealing me as a neuter! This came as a shock, although I had not felt surprise at the absence of defects or scars. This alteration was so unexpected!

"Lord Jesus, why am I now a neuter? I was a man."

"Yes, Dick, you were always a man, a child of God who returned our love by telling others of the good news about me. Remember? You read in my book the very first order I gave to Adam and Eve: "Be fruitful and multiply!' I told them to replenish the Earth, not heaven. Again I told the Sadducees (who did not believe in a resurrection) that they "knew not the scriptures' when they speculated about wives in heaven. I explained that after resurrection all would be like angels who do not marry nor raise families. Everything in heaven is created or re-created into perfection! It is all in my book. None other is truth!

"In fact, everything that my children need to know about how God thinks and works and judges and rewards, either before or after the cross, is already in my book. That is why I commanded mankind to "engrave my words upon their hearts,' and to pass them along from generation to generation. I wanted everyone to hear and know just who I AM, the Messiah, their one hope of salvation, their most high God."

I checked my body again: truly celestial! Its senses were too keen to describe.

 

[eclipsenow]

it is a real shame that you don't know god the way you do typing.

i am not a typest so i use all capital and the site is the one that changes

but how i type has nothing to do with what i say.

you should learn about god as you did typing

If you make just a little bit more effort you will be able to obey 1 Corinthians 14.

1 Corinthians 14

New International Version (NIV)

Intelligibility in Worship

14 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified.
6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air.10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church.
13 For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. 16 Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer, say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? 17 You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified.
18 I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. 19 But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.
20 Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. 21 In the Law it is written:
“With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”

22 Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. 23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 24 But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, 25 as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, “God is really among you!”

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 514:

Rev is NOT literal

Revelation is almost entirely literal (see post 471).

Matthew 24 talks about the end of Herod's temple

It doesn't, for the end of Herod's temple building (also called the 2nd temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Mt. 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple complex's Western Wall (also called the Wailing Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Mt. 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Mt. 24:2 wasn't referring to only the single 2nd temple building in the center of the Temple Mount (i.e. the building that contained the holy place and the most holy place), but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Mt. 24:1). Indeed, Mt. 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north of the Wailing Wall, for it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Mt. 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple complex map insert in the Dec. 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, Mt. 24:2's "here" included not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem, for the similar statement in Lk. 19:44 applied to the whole city (Lk. 19:41-44). Mt. 24:2 and Lk. 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zech. 14:2-21, Rev. 19:7-20:6).

Daniel 11, well, that's OT and could start a huge debate but I'm doubting it's end times. I see no evidence that it is a future temple. There are 2 points in history where this could already have been fulfilled: the Greek invasion or the Roman invasion.

See the "abomination of desolation" part of post 439.

2 Thessalonians 2 does not predict a still hypothetical future third temple!

It does, for it has never been fulfilled.

Even commentators I know of who actually *believe* in a future Anti-Christ have commented that the verse phrase "so that he sets himself up in God’s temple" could easily mean setting himself up in God's church.

See the "while the church as a whole is a figurative temple building" part of post 509.

Jesus body was the TRUE temple

See "The ultimate temple" part of post 509.

. . . not some silly end-times-table prophecy that we may as well cut out of our bibles for 2000, 3000, or 4000 years. (Or however long it takes the Lord to return?)

Revelation chapters 6-22 are a timetable of events in our future (see post 427).

Just as there's a requirement to insert some 2,000 years into Revelation for the fulfillment of Jesus' never-fulfilled second coming in Rev. 19:7-20:3, so there's a requirement to insert some 2,000 years for the never-fulfilled, preceding tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18.

 

[Bible2]

eclipsenow said in post 514:

What good is rebuilding an actual bricks and mortar temple for a largely secular Jewish state anyway?

It won't be rebuilt by the secular state. Indeed, one reason that the 3rd Jewish temple hasn't been built yet is that the current, secular, Israeli government is protecting the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest buildings in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina), knowing that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews were to destroy these buildings in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely. While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel.

Something that could bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to this point would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank) and East Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Ex. 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they're allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians), and led by three huge bulldozers they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem and go up onto the Temple Mount and destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque.

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements, something else that could tip the scales toward this happening would be the rising up of a false, miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" (Mt. 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount? Let us rise up, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

Something else that could help tip the scales regarding the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see the discovery of the Ark as (in their words) "an unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

IS THERE EVEN GOING TO BE A LITERAL ANTI-CHRIST?

Yes. The man commonly called the Antichrist is the individual "man of sin" (2 Thes. 2:3) who will sit in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself God (2 Thes. 2:4, Dan. 11:36). He's the individual "man" aspect of the "beast" who will come (Rev. 13:18) and bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and himself (Rev. 13:4,8, 12:9). He will rule the earth for 3.5 literal years (Rev. 13:5-10, Dan. 7:25, 12:7) and will have a miracle-working False Prophet (Rev. 19:20, 16:13) who by amazing Luciferian miracles (cf. 2 Thes. 2:9), such as calling fire down from heaven (Rev. 13:13), will deceive the people of the world into worshipping a speaking (possibly an android) image of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:15) and receiving a mark of the Antichrist's name or gematrial name-number (666) on their right hand or forehead (Rev. 13:16-18). The Antichrist and his False Prophet will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire at Jesus' 2nd coming (Rev. 19:20), while at that time Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:1-3). None of these things has happened yet.

The idea of a future, individual-man Antichrist was correctly recognized in the scriptures by the church from early on. Irenaeus (born c. 140 AD) used the term: "speaking of Antichrist, [Paul] says, 'who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped'" (Against Heresies 3:6:5; 2 Thes. 2:4); "...by means of the events which shall occur in the time of Antichrist is it shown that he, being an apostate and a robber, is anxious to be adored as God" (Against Heresies 5:25:1; 2 Thes. 2:4, Dan. 11:36, Rev. 13:8); "...when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple at Jerusalem" (Against Heresies 5:30:4b; Rev. 13:5, 2 Thes. 2:4, Dan. 7:25, 12:7); "...the number of the name of the beast ... the name of Antichrist" (Against Heresies 5:30:1; Rev. 13:17c-18).

The gematrial numerical values of the letters in the Antichrist's name will add up to 666 (Rev. 13:17c-18).

John talks about *many* Anti-Christs.

The existence of many antichrists (1 Jn. 2:18) doesn't contradict that there will be an individual man (2 Thes. 2:3-4,9, Rev. 13:4-18) who is commonly called the Antichrist, just as on the side of good the existence of many sons of God (Jn. 1:12) doesn't contradict that there's an individual man (Jesus Christ of Nazareth) who is called the Son of God (Jn. 20:31).

 

[Achilles6129]

It won't be rebuilt by the secular state. Indeed, one reason that the 3rd Jewish temple hasn't been built yet is that the current, secular, Israeli government is protecting the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest buildings in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina), knowing that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews were to destroy these buildings in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely. While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel.

It does seem as if we must have a 3rd Jewish temple (see 2 Thess. 2; see also Mt. 24 abomination of desolation). However, it may be that the antichrist himself is responsible for building the 3rd Jewish temple during the time of the tribulation (3.5 years).

This is a topic open to much further debate.

 

[doright]

It won't be rebuilt by the secular state. Indeed, one reason that the 3rd Jewish temple hasn't been built yet is that the current, secular, Israeli government is protecting the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest buildings in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina), knowing that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews were to destroy these buildings in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely. While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel.
(Jn. 20:31).

HAVE YOU READ EZEK. 38&39
THE NATION OF ISRAEL IS PROTECTED BY GOD NOW

 

[eclipsenow]

HAVE YOU READ EZEK. 38&39
THE NATION OF ISRAEL IS PROTECTED BY GOD NOW

No mate, we are. Us Christians. Protected in the sense that even if we are martyred, we'll still go to the true Kingdom of God which is in heaven. Basically everything the Old Testament promised about Jesus and the Kingdom was fulfilled in Jesus. Jesus translates all those OT expectations into NT terms. Read Romans and Hebrews and Galations which take nearly every OT expectation about the Messiah and spiritualise it.

Learn the difference between Dispensationalist theology and Covenant Theology. I'm convinced the bible is Covenant!

While some of the early church fathers may have been Premil, they were most definitely NOT Dispensationalist. They really sound like Covenant theologians.

EG: Justyn Martyr believed we are the true spiritual descendants of Abraham. The WHOLE bible is a unified purpose. From the beginning to the end it all focuses on Jesus Christ.

CHAPTER CXXXV -- CHRIST IS KING OF ISRAEL, AND CHRISTIANS ARE THE ISRAELITIC RACE.
Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles and yourselves shall trust? or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race. But let us attend rather to the very word: 'And I will bring forth,' He says, 'the seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah: and it shall inherit My holy mountain; and Mine Elect and My servants shall possess the inheritance, and shall dwell there; and there shall be folds of flocks in the thicket, and the valley of Achor shall be a resting-place of cattle for the people who have sought Me. But as for you, who forsake Me, and forget My holy mountain, and prepare a table for demons, and fill out drink for the demon, I shall give you to the sword. You shall all fall with a slaughter; for I called you, and you hearkened not, and did evil before me, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.' Such are the words of Scripture; understand, therefore, that the seed of Jacob now referred to is something else, and not, as may be supposed, spoken of your people.
Saint Justin Martyr: Dialogue with Trypho (Roberts-Donaldson)

Irenaeus: "But in Christ every blessing [is summed up], and therefore the latter people has snatched away the blessings of the former from the Father, just as Jacob took away the blessings of Esau. For which cause his brother suffered the plots and persecutions of a brother, just as the Church suffers this self-same thing from the Jews."

Ambrosiaster: "Thus whoever believes that Christ Jesus was promised to Abraham is a child of Abraham and a brother of Isaac. Abraham was told that all the nations would be blessed in his offspring. This happened not in Isaac, but in him who was promised to Abraham in Isaac, that is, Christ, in whom all the nations are blessed when they believe.

 

[Achilles6129]

Israel is also protected by God. See Zech. 14, etc. That's why Israel has never lost a war since 1948, and that's why they were reinstated in 1948 - God is with Israel.

 

[eclipsenow]

Israel is also protected by God. See Zech. 14, etc. That's why Israel has never lost a war since 1948, and that's why they were reinstated in 1948 - God is with Israel.

That's not true! We are Israel now. All Abraham's blessings have moved to the spiritual Kingdom of God, that Kingdom that is NOT of this world, that Kingdom that will only be fully realised in the New Heavens and New Earth, that Kingdom that is only visible as it quietly submits to Christ's reign in our hearts.

Israel's re-establishment in 1948 has nothing to do with the bible and everything to do with a specific people group fleeing Nazi persecution and wanting a secular state to keep them secure. Israel persecutes the largest concentration camps in the world, Gaza and the West Bank. Israel are one of many 'beast' states, directly out of Rev 13, as they persecute those in their care. And futurists go and put them on some kind of pedestal! It makes me ashamed to be a Christian sometimes.:o

 

[zeke37]

It does seem as if we must have a 3rd Jewish temple (see 2 Thess. 2; see also Mt. 24 abomination of desolation). However, it may be that the antichrist himself is responsible for building the 3rd Jewish temple during the time of the tribulation (3.5 years).

This is a topic open to much further debate.

2Thes2 does not mention a "third" temple at all.
infact, the temple Paul speaks of, is not a literal building at all.
even the word used for temple is ONLY used when describing SOMEONE as the temple of God, whether it be Jesus or us.

Paul repeated this teaching over and over again
AND THEN wrote 2Thes2.

know ye not that YE are the temple of God?

 

[eclipsenow]

2Thes2 does not mention a "third" temple at all.
infact, the temple Paul speaks of, is not a literal building at all.
even the word used for temple is ONLY used when describing SOMEONE as the temple of God, whether it be Jesus or us.

Paul repeated this teaching over and over again
AND THEN wrote 2Thes2.

know ye not that YE are the temple of God?

It's amazing how much we can agree at times Zeke!