What is your view of Christmas...

[Avodat]

So, Torah, you do not light candles for Shabbat, or celebrate Purim?

 

[ananda]

Do you feel it is wrong? Just curious no bashing intended.

It isn't and it is "wrong".

I don't think it is "wrong" in the sense that we are not forbidden in Torah to celebrate Messiah's (or anyone's) birth. It is "wrong" in the sense that pagan religious influences and practices are used in the celebration; this is what is forbidden in Torah and the Neviim.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

People get too hung up on the letter of the Law sometimes.

2 Chron 30 shows God is gracious enough to look more at our faith than our perfect observance.

With Christmas, many people who seem to be agaisnt it due seem to try to be consistent in what they may get hung up over since they also go against the 4th of July, St.Patricks Day, April Fools, Veterans Day, Thanksgiving and other holidays that were not explictly lined up in the Law as Biblical Holidays. They even go against Purim saying that those Jews celebrating it are in idolatry since they don't feel the Law ever allowed it....but that's another issue

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I "feel" you are asking the wrong people to answer your questions. You should be asking El the Father what is His view of Christmas and does He feel that it is wrong? Oh and by the way, there a a number of sources including encyclopedias that can help you learn of the true origins of this hoilday.

Good point. Whether one be Messianic or not, the reality is that all must give an account to the Lord on the subject and are responsible for their own research/study and taking it to the Lord in prayer. As it stands, not even all Messianics agree on the issue when it comes to Christmas or other holidays and thus all are within the category of "to each his own"---or really, each going with the group supporting their specific stance/viewpoint.

 

[Torah]

So, Torah, you do not light candles for Shabbat, or celebrate Purim?

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I posted this at another post: [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]http://www.christianforums.com/t7679158-3/[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The lighting of the candles come from Proverbs 6: 23. The two loves of Bread from, Exodus 16: 4 – 5, The salt on the Bread from Leviticus 2 : 13, The wine from, Psalm 104: 15.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I do not do Purim. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]G-d give us HIS days to celebrate. I think it is funny that in G-d's Holidays I don't see any Pagan influence. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As I have said before: “ I have come to the conclusion by the warnings that G-d gives in his word that he does not want his people to take lightly his warning when it comes to honoring His Holiness.
I do NOT care to take the chance that what I offer up to G-d will be acceptable, when it may very well NOT be acceptable by him. I just don't want to take that chance.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Each person must decide for there self.[/FONT]

 

[Avodat]

I posted this at another post:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7679158-3/


The lighting of the candles come from Proverbs 6: 23. The two loves of Bread from, Exodus 16: 4 – 5, The salt on the Bread from Leviticus 2 : 13, The wine from, Psalm 104: 15.


I do not do Purim.


G-d give us HIS days to celebrate. I think it is funny that in G-d's Holidays I don't see any Pagan influence.


As I have said before: “ I have come to the conclusion by the warnings that G-d gives in his word that he does not want his people to take lightly his warning when it comes to honoring His Holiness.
I do NOT care to take the chance that what I offer up to G-d will be acceptable, when it may very well NOT be acceptable by him. I just don't want to take that chance.


Each person must decide for there self.

But that is not G_d commanding that the candles be lit, as is claimed in the Shabbat service. I can accept that a tradition has come from Proverbs but that is vastly different to claiming, week in and week out, that G_d has commanded us that it be done. No real difference to Christians celebrating Christmas - nowhere does it say they must (or mustn't), but there is a similar link to your chain of thought in the birth narratives - and so they take Scripture and, over the centuries, for whatever the original reasoning may have been, they celebrate his birth. No Biblical authority for either tradition - just one that is carried out every week and every Feast, and one that lasts for 12 days each year. Both are just tradition of two millennia instigated by man, not G-d.

 

[Lulav]

Have you been to Torah's house for Shabbat? How do you know if he does or doesn't say the Rabbinic Blessing over the candles (or his wife)? I know of many in MJ that do light candles but we do not say it is a commandment. There are specific Messianic blessings for Shabbat that many use.

You shouldn't be condemning someone for something you aren't even sure if they do or don't.

The commandment that is spoken of in the Messianic blessing, is a true commandment, that we are to be a light to the world.

Baruch attah Adonai elohenu, melekh ha'olam, asher kiddeshanu, b'mitzvotav v'tzivanu lehiyot or la-goyim v'natan lanu et Yeshua Meshicheinu, or ha olam.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

To be frank, I think the birth of Jesus is sometime between 24 Dec and 6 Jan. (Interesting that the EOCs keep Jan 6 not Dec 25, pretty much killing the whole pagan connection myth) I don't do trees or stuff like that.

Technically, we just had Christmas for many people in July due to calender issues...but the ways the EOCs have never been for a December birthday aspect has always seemed very interesting when it comes to trying to do guilt-by-association ideology. Many scholars conclude Christ was actually born during warm months, as evidenced by the shepherds in the fields, and there has been a movement in recent years to mark Christmas in July.

Interestingly enough, when seeing the ways pagan aspects were present within many of the Biblical Festivals themselves as well as Jewish culture, it does make you wonder. Many of the Feasts had elements directly in line with agricultural celebrations/festivals of the Cannanites...and there's a reason many Jewish scholars note how much of Ancient Israel borrowed elements/reinterpreted them at the direction of the Lord. Pagan feasts were celebrated around the same time of the year as was Passover...and in regards to things like Sabbath, it was already the case in Babylonia, long before the Exodus account, that the days Sabbath was done on were also done by Babylon...not for the sake of rest but rather because certain days were seen as unlucky days. For a good read on the issue:

• Studies, Essays and Reviews: Old Testament
• Ancient Israel: Its Life and Institutions - Page 513
• Journal of Biblical literature: Volumes 41-42 - Page 207

 

[Torah]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]But that is not G_d commanding that the candles be lit, as is claimed in the Shabbat service. I can accept that a tradition has come from Proverbs but that is vastly different to claiming, week in and week out, that G_d has commanded us that it be done. [/FONT]

[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Pleas understand that never said “ Commanded us“. This is what I said: (Pleas read every thing) [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The Scriptures say's (Exodus 20 : 8) Keep the Sabbath Holy....

And In Leviticus 10 : 10 It says: You must distinguish....

But G-d does not say what to do to make a distinguish between Sabbath and all the other days. He has left this up to us as people to make a distinguish.

It is my understanding that the Rabbis created Traditions based on Scriptures to make a distinguish between Holy and the common.

The lighting of the candles come from Proverbs 6: 23. The two loves of Bread from, Exodus 16: 4 – 5, The salt on the Bread from Leviticus 2 : 13, The wine from, Psalm 104: 15.

If Jewish Rabbis have created Traditions to make a distinguish between Sabbath and Common. After all they have been doing a long, long time. [/FONT]


My wife says when lighting the Sabbath candles: “ We light these candles to separate this day from the rest of the week”



[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]No real difference to Christians celebrating Christmas - nowhere does it say they must (or mustn't), but there is a similar link to your chain of thought in the birth narratives - and so they take Scripture and, over the centuries, for whatever the original reasoning may have been, they celebrate his birth. No Biblical authority for either tradition - just one that is carried out every week and every Feast, and one that lasts for 12 days each year. Both are just tradition of two millennia instigated by man, not God.[/FONT]

[/FONT]

I believe there is a deference in Keeping G-d's days and picking a man made day that is surrounded with Myth's that are rooted in the Pagan day & rituals of that time:

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]they take Scripture and, over the centuries, for whatever the original reasoning may have been,[/FONT]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]As for me and my understanding of why the blending or using pagan things [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]and offering it up to G-d as Chris-mass on a pagan day. Will never be for me. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Of all the days in a year why pick a day that was used in worship to the Sun god?[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]On a day offered up to G-d why place a tree in the center of ones home. When it's roots come from pagan worship of tree's.[/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]On a day offered up to G-d why clam that a little elf in a red suite magically appears in one's home giving presents, when it has it's roots in myths. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I see that the original reasons dose matter. As I said before, I am fearful that what I offer up to G-d may offend him. SO! I chose to stick with what I know He said was his Holy days. [/FONT]


[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Exodus 34: 13 – (I would not even use the fire to cook my meals) [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Deut 7: 26 & Jere 10: 1-4[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Deut 12 :31[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Ezekiel 22: 26[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Malachi 3:6 [/FONT]

"Each person must decide for there self."

 

[yedida]

What Lulav and Torah said!!

 

[Avodat]

What Lulav and Torah said!!

Maybe, to a certain extent. But I also agree with EasyG as well. No idea about Lulav's contribution so cannot comment.

 

[Lulav]

So, Torah, you do not light candles for Shabbat, or celebrate Purim?

You mean like your avatar? Why condemn someone when you advertise this tradition everywhere you go on CF? Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

 

[yedida]

Maybe, to a certain extent. But I also agree with EasyG as well. No idea about Lulav's contribution so cannot comment.

Lulav's contribution, post #167, is what many Messianics say over the lighting of the candles. What's to not understand? Have you never heard that blessing? Or what of it do you not have an idea?

 

[Avodat]

Lulav's contribution, post #167, is what many Messianics say over the lighting of the candles. What's to not understand? Have you never heard that blessing? Or what of it do you not have an idea?

As she is aware, she is on my ignore list (for good reason).



Check your Rep Count

 

[Gxg (G²)]

How does one go about asking Father YAHWEH?

Prayer Closet and beginning with "Dear Lord.."

 

[Gavriella]

This thread is still going? Wow!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus How does one go about asking Father YAHWEH?

Prayer Closet and beginning with "Dear Lord.."

What if one doesn't have a closet

.....

 

[Avodat]

Use something in lieu (loo)

 

[aniello]

Use something in lieu (loo)

When I was very young, in far northern Minnesota, in the winter, and the loos were outside, we would sing "Skip to my loo" to two loos too.

It was alimentary, sorta'.

 

[visionary]

Praying you will be able to peel your b'hind after you finished with out icicles attachments...lol