False spirits invade the church - KUNDALINI WARNING

[Tobias]

But it would be better to check if someone had been raised from the dead before broadcasting it. Relatively easy to verify, no?

One would think.


It could be a simple matter of people lying over the phone, claiming miracles happened that didn't. Then later, after the hype was gone and it was more popular to support those who were against TB, these same people changed their story.


You know, even if TB had personally flown to each location where these resurrections were reported, and insisted on seeing a live person walking around; there still would be no genuine way to prove that they were actually dead before being miraculously raised.

We all have to depend upon other people to some degree or another. Kind of like how some could easily place their faith in a statement that "they were all false" without taking a second to question it or think about why someone would make such a claim.

But suppose though they were all false. Who's fault is it?

The Spirit of Kundilini?

Todd Bentley?

His staff?

Charismaniac revival hype?

Witches and Satanists pretending to be Christians and lying about fake miracles just to make us look bad?



I know TB is a popular scapegoat, but do lets try to be fair.

 

[Tobias]

I suppose this discussion isn't going anywhere unless I present my theory on why I think it was indeed God who initiated the Lakeland revival.


Revival typically is used by God to break past people's theological barriers and present new doctrine. We see this over and over again through the past several centuries of Protestantism, where one denomination after another was born through a revival and the new doctrines are incorporated into their foundations.

So what was God trying to teach us? That the role of angels in the Body of Christ has been overlooked. Somehow we imagine God as so fantastic of a being that we reject His known methods of operation; in that He almost ALWAYS uses angels, ministers, or some other faithful servant to deliver His messages and have a hand in preforming His works. Part of signing up to be a Christian is accepting our place as one of God's doers, not just a lifetime of sitting in a pew guarding our theological belief system(s).


As with many other revivals, the people in charge were just as clueless as the rest of us as to what God was wanting to do. Often in the past, ministers were divided over the new doctrines and some took the wrong path. Pentecostal Holiness churches are split between those who believe in the Trinity, and those who believe the doctrine of Oneness. Does that "prove" that God was not the inspiration for the revival in the first place? No. But it does support the premise that there are deceiving spirits in the church, even during the best of times!

Some only saw the failures of Man and the spirits of deception in Lakeland. But I know I watched the programs on God TV because my God was there doing something. I am not claiming to be smarter or have a more accurate sense of discernment than anyone else. I think I saw what I was meant to see. Another person may have been led to watch to see the invasion of the enemy and expected to sound the alarm.

But I cannot sit idly by and not express my opinion that God Himself was behind the beginnings of the revival, when so many try to make it out to be nothing but a hoax and the hype of Man.

 

[lesjude]

Something changed at Toronto about 15 years ago. Originally, while there were some concerning manifestations, it was a powerful move of God. Then they were confronted by the leader of the Vineyard, John Wimber, to repent and reign in the extremes. Arnott was publishing a book on it and wanted Wimber's endorsement. Wimber agreed to endorse only if one chapter on the extreme manifestations was removed and they agreed to repent. In short, Wimber was being used by God to bring needed correction and grace. Arnott agreed to both. But he then published the book with Wimber's endorsement, but he left the chapter in rebelling against Wimber (and God) and he did not repent or turn away from the extreme manifestations as promised. When Arnott rebelled, I believe God turned Arnott and Toronto over to their sin and it became the birthing ground with the problems we're seeing today. Stacey Campbell, who is clearly operating under a demonic spirit when she prophecies, gained even more prominence.

Some in my family used to visit Toronto every few years for a retreat. Before this occurred, it was always a blessing. After this occurred, though we didn't understand at the time, something had clearly changed. It was spiritually strange - there were warning flags from the Holy Spirit. My MIL returned and wanted to pray for my wife to pass along the anointing. I trust my MIL, but was really grieved watching that exchange and I had to pray over my wife later to remove what had attached. Definitely was a demonic thing.

Out of this change at Toronto, we started to see a major shift in other ministries as well. Patricia King, Bob Jones, Todd Bentley, etc rose up all operating in the same demonic anointing and spreading it. The debacle at Lakeland was the pinnacle with God turning them and their followers over to their sin of chasing after manifestations and rebelling against God's authority.

To most believers, Lakeland was such a ridiculously over-the-top obvious example of the demonic component to this movement, that it had to be God showing the world that these people did not follow Him. You would have thought the apostolic anointing night over Todd would have taught Arnott, Campbell, Johnson, Sheets, Joyner, Wagner, et al a lesson and generated some serious repentance for missing it so badly and so obviously . . . but it didn't. They were embarassed, but did it generate any repentance or change? No.

Thank you for the informative post. I agree.

 

[lesjude]

I suppose this discussion isn't going anywhere unless I present my theory on why I think it was indeed God who initiated the Lakeland revival.


Revival typically is used by God to break past people's theological barriers and present new doctrine. We see this over and over again through the past several centuries of Protestantism, where one denomination after another was born through a revival and the new doctrines are incorporated into their foundations.

So what was God trying to teach us? That the role of angels in the Body of Christ has been overlooked. Somehow we imagine God as so fantastic of a being that we reject His known methods of operation; in that He almost ALWAYS uses angels, ministers, or some other faithful servant to deliver His messages and have a hand in preforming His works. Part of signing up to be a Christian is accepting our place as one of God's doers, not just a lifetime of sitting in a pew guarding our theological belief system(s).


As with many other revivals, the people in charge were just as clueless as the rest of us as to what God was wanting to do. Often in the past, ministers were divided over the new doctrines and some took the wrong path. Pentecostal Holiness churches are split between those who believe in the Trinity, and those who believe the doctrine of Oneness. Does that "prove" that God was not the inspiration for the revival in the first place? No. But it does support the premise that there are deceiving spirits in the church, even during the best of times!

Some only saw the failures of Man and the spirits of deception in Lakeland. But I know I watched the programs on God TV because my God was there doing something. I am not claiming to be smarter or have a more accurate sense of discernment than anyone else. I think I saw what I was meant to see. Another person may have been led to watch to see the invasion of the enemy and expected to sound the alarm.

But I cannot sit idly by and not express my opinion that God Himself was behind the beginnings of the revival, when so many try to make it out to be nothing but a hoax and the hype of Man.

With Todd Bentley committing adultery from the beginning and already under demonic control. No way this was God!

 

[jamadan]

One would think.

It could be a simple matter of people lying over the phone, claiming miracles happened that didn't. Then later, after the hype was gone and it was more popular to support those who were against TB, these same people changed their story.

You know, even if TB had personally flown to each location where these resurrections were reported, and insisted on seeing a live person walking around; there still would be no genuine way to prove that they were actually dead before being miraculously raised.

We all have to depend upon other people to some degree or another. Kind of like how some could easily place their faith in a statement that "they were all false" without taking a second to question it or think about why someone would make such a claim.

But suppose though they were all false. Who's fault is it?

The Spirit of Kundilini?

Todd Bentley?

His staff?

Charismaniac revival hype?

Witches and Satanists pretending to be Christians and lying about fake miracles just to make us look bad?

I know TB is a popular scapegoat, but do lets try to be fair.

Who's fault? Todd's, of course. He was the leader and has an obligation to check facts before reporting. I'm a teacher with a public profile and understand that responsibility.

Next, we can swing to the punching and kicking "miracles". Care to guess how many of those Charisma was able to validate as actually being healed despite them being announced and promoted from the Lakeland stage? Hint . . . it's the same answer as the previous question.

Why is all of this important? Because folks like you are eagerly repeating lies and misinformation testifying to a revival that wasn't what it appeared to be. Again, if you read what I posted, or better yet, do you own research, how you can say Todd got a bad rap is beyond my understanding.

He needs to be removed from ministry, not promoted - hello Mr Joyner? Anyone listening at Morningstar? Please stop calling 'evil', 'good' as you did when you blessed Todd's divorce and remarriage and now promote both Todd and his new wife in ministry.

 

[Tobias]

Who's fault? Todd's, of course. He was the leader and has an obligation to check facts before reporting. I'm a teacher with a public profile and understand that responsibility.

Next, we can swing to the punching and kicking "miracles". Care to guess how many of those Charisma was able to validate as actually being healed despite them being announced and promoted from the Lakeland stage? Hint . . . it's the same answer as the previous question.

Why is all of this important? Because folks like you are eagerly repeating lies and misinformation testifying to a revival that wasn't what it appeared to be. Again, if you read what I posted, or better yet, do you own research, how you can say Todd got a bad rap is beyond my understanding.

He needs to be removed from ministry, not promoted - hello Mr Joyner? Anyone listening at Morningstar? Please stop calling 'evil', 'good' as you did when you blessed Todd's divorce and remarriage and now promote both Todd and his new wife in ministry.

Samson went into a town and slept with a prostitute, then in the middle of that very same night ripped the gates off the city and carried them away by the power of God.

Exposing the sins of a pastor does not "prove" that God will not, or has not ever used him. That logic is biblically unsound.

I'm not really a fan of TB, if that's what you think. I didn't see anything that looked like true repentance necessary for a restoration into ministry, last I checked several years ago. But I did see a serious attempt to work things out with his former wife during the early days of the revival, which really is all God expects of any of us IMO. I see no reason to think his shortcomings were so great (at first) that we can know for certain God would not have been able to use him.

 

[lismore]

You know, even if TB had personally flown to each location where these resurrections were reported, and insisted on seeing a live person walking around; there still would be no genuine way to prove that they were actually dead before being miraculously raised.

Well there would be a death certificate, possibly even a funeral. There would be a doctor who certified the death and people who witnessed it.

To broadcast claims without having them verified................very unwise IMO>

It's like the parable of the little boy who cried 'wolf'. If we the church keep broadcasting miracle reports that are false it will do us no good.

 

[Tobias]

Well there would be a death certificate, possibly even a funeral. There would be a doctor who certified the death and people who witnessed it.

To broadcast claims without having them verified................very unwise IMO>

It's like the parable of the little boy who cried 'wolf'. If we the church keep broadcasting miracle reports that are false it will do us no good.

Ok, you're right. I agree.



Even more important though, IMO, is for us to give an accurate testimony of the workings of the Holy Spirit. If a young Christian were to have felt the Spirit touch his/her heart in Lakeland, yet we teach them that it was a false spirit instead, aren't we giving them a false report? Isn't that a crime against God ten times worse than being careless and reporting a miracle that didn't actually happen?

The only thing we have to go on sometimes when it comes to knowing God is a sense of familiarity. "My sheep know My voice and the voice of a stranger they will not follow." It is because we have encountered God for ourselves; and because we have older and wiser saints around us to help us accurately identify this Voice when it is difficult to discern, that we become familiar with Him and learn His ways.

When people deny what God did for them in Lakeland they are hardening their hearts to the Holy Spirit. Those who truly felt God's presence will begin to fear that the "spirit of kundilini" feels just like the Holy Spirit, and that the two are indistinguishable.

And when the only "proof" offered that we have had a system wide failure in accurately identifying our Lord and Master when He speaks -- comes from the exact same crowd that make it their mission in life to TEAR DOWN EVERY SINGLE MINISTER who dares operate in the Spirit; you really have to question which group is the one inspired by the enemy.

 

[Simon Peter]

Tobias, the issue you seem to be addressing is 'how do we discern what is God and what is a false spirit (Kundalini)'.

You say:

The only thing we have to go on sometimes when it comes to knowing God is a sense of familiarity. "My sheep know My voice and the voice of a stranger they will not follow."

But we are all God's sheep, some follow Bentley, some refuse to and warn against following Bentley.

The scriptures say we should only follow leaders who have:

1. Good Character
2. Sound Doctrine

Far more objective than feelings oriented 'discernment'.


Now let's apply those standards to Bentley:

Character

A proven liar (even during Lakeland, and staff even said he was a pathological liar)
An adulterer (more than once, and even during Lakeland)
A drunkard (even during Lakeland)
Abandoned his wife (ill with cancer) and children
Long manipulative appeals for money (ATM/Cash Point machines installed at Lakeland revival)

Doctrine

Todd believed the Holy Spirit causes people to bark like dogs and squawk like chickens, and reduces orderly services to pandemonium.

Todd believes He has the right to demand that God gives him ‘financial angels’, assigned to him to make him wealthy!!!

Todd thinks poverty is death, and is from the Devil.

Todd believes in an extreme version of ‘positive confession’.

Todd’s relationship with the ‘angel’ Emma has been called a familiar spirit (a demon) by many.

Todd’s respect for Bob Jones, and his relationship with him, should be a serious concern to Christians.

Todd appears to believe in the "heretical" ‘Manifest Sons of God’ doctrine.

Todd is a Dominionist


I'm just not feeling it...
In fact, if the above is what you think is a 'Christian revival', you can keep your 'Christian revival'.

peace,
Simon

 

[jamadan]

Ok, you're right. I agree.



Even more important though, IMO, is for us to give an accurate testimony of the workings of the Holy Spirit. If a young Christian were to have felt the Spirit touch his/her heart in Lakeland, yet we teach them that it was a false spirit instead, aren't we giving them a false report? Isn't that a crime against God ten times worse than being careless and reporting a miracle that didn't actually happen?

The only thing we have to go on sometimes when it comes to knowing God is a sense of familiarity. "My sheep know My voice and the voice of a stranger they will not follow." It is because we have encountered God for ourselves; and because we have older and wiser saints around us to help us accurately identify this Voice when it is difficult to discern, that we become familiar with Him and learn His ways.

When people deny what God did for them in Lakeland they are hardening their hearts to the Holy Spirit. Those who truly felt God's presence will begin to fear that the "spirit of kundilini" feels just like the Holy Spirit, and that the two are indistinguishable.

And when the only "proof" offered that we have had a system wide failure in accurately identifying our Lord and Master when He speaks -- comes from the exact same crowd that make it their mission in life to TEAR DOWN EVERY SINGLE MINISTER who dares operate in the Spirit; you really have to question which group is the one inspired by the enemy.

Here, you're actually describing a major root of the problem. We shouldn't be pursuing feelings and manifestations at all. Judging whether or not it's God is not based on feelings. People who show up at a conference or revival to laugh, fall on the ground, get "drunk", shake, bark like a dog, whatever . . . are sinning because they are chasing after manifestations. People can and are making their concept of revival an idol in an of itself. An evil spirit can appear and feel like an angel of light. If we chase after feelings and manifestations, we're easily deceived by spirits. And while I believe much of what we saw was a function of hype, I also believe there was a strong evil presence that was not God also manifesting. You can't center a meeting around a healing angel named 'Emma' and not realize you just invited a major demonic principality to hold reign over the service. Whether or not it's that same spirit you are referring to I don't know or care.

And while I often sense God's Presence in powerful ways, I have found that when I feel like nothing is happening and God seems far off, as I walk in obedience in ministry, God tends to do His most powerful work through me. You can't walk by feelings. I've taught and felt miserable and disconnected only for people to rave over it. I've prayed for people feeling like I have nothing inside only to have them significantly impacted and healed completely surprising me. When we are weak, He is strong!

As for proof of problems, I'm really at a loss with how you judge anything at all? When presented with seriously false teachings (e.g. healing angel 'Emma'), serious sin in the camp (e.g. adultery), lies and exaggerations broadcast from the pulpit (e.g. no one raised from the dead despite dozens of claims), etc, etc . . . just how bad does it have to get before you recognize the devil at work? Where's the discerning of spirits? Where's the judgement against God's Word? I realize there are heresy hunters out there, but that's not what's happening here. A branch of the charismatic church is seriously in the middle of being derailed here and it's time to address it.

 

[Tobias]

Here, you're actually describing a major root of the problem. We shouldn't be pursuing feelings and manifestations at all. Judging whether or not it's God is not based on feelings. People who show up at a conference or revival to laugh, fall on the ground, get "drunk", shake, bark like a dog, whatever . . . are sinning because they are chasing after manifestations. People can and are making their concept of revival an idol in an of itself. An evil spirit can appear and feel like an angel of light. If we chase after feelings and manifestations, we're easily deceived by spirits.

I don't disagree with some of this, but how far are you willing to go? Because it sounds like a form of Ceassationalism to me. That: "God used to lead His people by the moving of the Holy Spirit, but He doesn't do that anymore. Now we are expected to only use our intellect to discern that which is God, and never use our feelings."

I believe God still does things the same way we read about in the Bible. He uses our entire being to commune with us, both intellect and emotions!

And while I believe much of what we saw was a function of hype, I also believe there was a strong evil presence that was not God also manifesting. You can't center a meeting around a healing angel named 'Emma' and not realize you just invited a major demonic principality to hold reign over the service. Whether or not it's that same spirit you are referring to I don't know or care.

God was the central figure of the meetings, while Emma only got a small footnote. Do we suppose that Satan is so powerful, that all it takes is a ratio of one or two mentions of him for every twenty mentions of God, and suddenly he is the entire center of the meetings?

That doesn't work with my cosmology.

As for proof of problems, I'm really at a loss with how you judge anything at all? When presented with seriously false teachings (e.g. healing angel 'Emma'), serious sin in the camp (e.g. adultery), lies and exaggerations broadcast from the pulpit (e.g. no one raised from the dead despite dozens of claims), etc, etc . . . just how bad does it have to get before you recognize the devil at work? Where's the discerning of spirits? Where's the judgement against God's Word? I realize there are heresy hunters out there, but that's not what's happening here. A branch of the charismatic church is seriously in the middle of being derailed here and it's time to address it.

I think I probably see the same problems and feel the same concern. The problem is that scripture doesn't support the idea that "God cannot use so-and-so because he is in sin." In fact, we can see example after example of exactly the opposite!

Somehow the writers of the Bible were able to discern when God was at work and record it. The author of Judges didn't think that the spirit of kundilini imitated the Holy Spirit and empowered Samson the night he was used by God while still stinking of the harlot's perfume.

Why do we draw these conclusions with our contemporaries then? Are we smarter than the authors of the Bible?

 

[Simon Peter]

I don't disagree with some of this, but how far are you willing to go? Because it sounds like a form of Ceassationalism to me. That: "God used to lead His people by the moving of the Holy Spirit, but He doesn't do that anymore. Now we are expected to only use our intellect to discern that which is God, and never use our feelings."

I believe God still does things the same way we read about in the Bible. He uses our entire being to commune with us, both intellect and emotions!

You are right, discernment is not purely intellectual.

When I first watched Bently, something did not sit right in my spirit at all (flag 1).
I researched Bentley's teaching and found some serious serious problems (flag 2).

These two alone were enough for me to pull my oldest out of his youth group, meet with my pastors and leave the church.

Later Bentley's character came to light (flag 3). You don't need to wait for the olympic cermony one or two flags can be enough.

God was the central figure of the meetings, while Emma only got a small footnote. Do we suppose that Satan is so powerful, that all it takes is a ratio of one or two mentions of him for every twenty mentions of God, and suddenly he is the entire center of the meetings?

No, God was NOT the central figure of the meetings, TODD BENTLEY was the central figure of the meetings. It was all about him. His ego (and insecurity) were so huge you just couldn't miss it.



peace,
Simon

 

[Faulty]

You are right, discernment is not purely intellectual.

When I first watched Bently, something did not sit right in my spirit at all (flag 1).
I researched Bentley's teaching and found some serious serious problems (flag 2).

These two alone were enough for me to pull my oldest out of his youth group, meet with my pastors and leave the church.

Later Bentley's character came to light (flag 3). You don't need to wait for the olympic cermony one or two flags can be enough.




No, God was NOT the central figure of the meetings, TODD BENTLEY was the central figure of the meetings. It was all about him. His ego (and insecurity) were so huge you just couldn't miss it.



peace,
Simon

It probably wouldn't take much to go back and find a thread I started on this, but I watched some of the Lakeland sessions and paid close attention to the content of what TB said. When he spoke, he spoke for a long time. Unfortunately, most of is was about himself, his drams/visions, dreams/visions of others and speculations. These things worked up the crowd, because he is a very good orator, and because he spoke of "god-ish" things, they thought they were hearing the things of God.

When he finally got to quoting scripture, I never heard more than a single verse at a time, and it was used to add validity to his dreams/visions. I'd pause the video when he spoke a scripture, find it, read it's full context, the un-pause the video to see if he said the same thing about that verse that the context said, and he never did, not even a single time. I never saw him do so, not even once.

My conclusion early on was this guy was teaching about himself, and people were so illiterate with their scripture and/or so unconcerned with genuine spiritual things, they considered him a man of God because he spoke of "god-ish" things in an interesting way, but you can't call someone a man of God when he doesn't correctly speak the things of God.

After a while, I stopped breaking down what he said, because it was always the same thing.

Still one of my favorite pics he shared of himself (yes, TB sent this himself to everyone) in Twitter...

 

[jamadan]

I don't disagree with some of this, but how far are you willing to go? Because it sounds like a form of Ceassationalism to me. That: "God used to lead His people by the moving of the Holy Spirit, but He doesn't do that anymore. Now we are expected to only use our intellect to discern that which is God, and never use our feelings."

I believe God still does things the same way we read about in the Bible. He uses our entire being to commune with us, both intellect and emotions!

I'm fully charismatic and have been for nearly 30 years. We don't have to sacrifice sound doctrine and practices in order to operate in the power of the Spirit. In fact, it's just the opposite. I love God with all my heart and am not inhibited in my worship. But my emotions don't govern my doctrine or my decisions - the Word of God does that. That's where things have gone awry. Instead of believing the Word and acting on it in faith to see healings and salvation, they've decided to chase after angel feathers, gold dust, barking like dogs, etc. These are not even a poor substitute for the real power of God. What's more effective, praying for someone like Jesus and actually see the blind eyes opened? Or pray for them like Todd, punching them in the face and knocking out their teeth while their illness remained unhealed? One is of God. One is hype and not of God. I prefer to wait on God for the real rather than accept hype. It takes a lot of persistence and faith, but it's worth it.

God was the central figure of the meetings, while Emma only got a small footnote. Do we suppose that Satan is so powerful, that all it takes is a ratio of one or two mentions of him for every twenty mentions of God, and suddenly he is the entire center of the meetings?

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. Jesus and the Gospel of salvation was not preached once in the weeks I listened. Todd preached on his dreams, visions and experiences, not Christ crucified. In fact, Todd stated, "God told me not to preach on Jesus because they already believe in Him. He told me to preach on the angel." It doesn't get more clear who Todd was lifting up.

I think I probably see the same problems and feel the same concern. The problem is that scripture doesn't support the idea that "God cannot use so-and-so because he is in sin." In fact, we can see example after example of exactly the opposite!

Somehow the writers of the Bible were able to discern when God was at work and record it. The author of Judges didn't think that the spirit of kundilini imitated the Holy Spirit and empowered Samson the night he was used by God while still stinking of the harlot's perfume.

Why do we draw these conclusions with our contemporaries then? Are we smarter than the authors of the Bible?

What happened when Moses struck the rock in anger? He wasn't allowed to enter into the Promised Land.

What happened to David after his adultery and involvement in another's death? All of Israel was punished with eternal strife and wars.

To whom much is given, much is required. There are consequences for sin. And Jesus taught us to judge by the fruit. A minister who is actively engaged in adultery is not being blessed and anointed by God and elevated to some new super-Christian level as the so-called apostles there proclaimed. It just doesn't get any simpler than that.

I really find the pattern of gross sin among some of the leaders in this wing of the charismatic movement quite significant. Bob Jones manipulating women into stripping naked for him to get a prophetic word. Paul Cain with a long history of homosexuality and alcoholism. Todd Bentley's adulterous affairs and divorce. I could go on and on. Seems to me that if we follow Jesus' instructions to judge by the fruit, then these ministers would never have a following. But they've been pumping their followers with false teachings for a long time, so they aren't mature enough to discern the truth.

 

[Simon Peter]

I'm fully charismatic and have been for nearly 30 years. We don't have to sacrifice sound doctrine and practices in order to operate in the power of the Spirit. In fact, it's just the opposite. I love God with all my heart and am not inhibited in my worship. But my emotions don't govern my doctrine or my decisions - the Word of God does that. That's where things have gone awry. Instead of believing the Word and acting on it in faith to see healings and salvation, they've decided to chase after angel feathers, gold dust, barking like dogs, etc. These are not even a poor substitute for the real power of God. What's more effective, praying for someone like Jesus and actually see the blind eyes opened? Or pray for them like Todd, punching them in the face and knocking out their teeth while their illness remained unhealed? One is of God. One is hype and not of God. I prefer to wait on God for the real rather than accept hype. It takes a lot of persistence and faith, but it's worth it...

The state of 21st century Charismatic Christianity is truly sad.

The Word of Faith 'prosperity Gospel' has has a huge negative impact, then there's the 'Holy Laughter' Charismania, the IHOP insanity, the Latter Rain and the NAR, the Elijah List type of false Prophetic Movement.

Leaders constantly falling into serious sin, controlling and fleecing the flock, even non-WoF ministry leaders earning half million dollar salaries or more, congregants conned into believing it's wrong to judge.

I live in an area with a very high church density, but finding a Charismatic or Pentecostal church that hasn't wandered into one or more of the above serious errors is almost impossible.

Does anyone actually attend a Charismatic/Pentecostal church that hasn't fallen for any of the above? Or should I just give it up?

peace,
Simon

 

[Tobias]

I'm sorry, but that's just not true. Jesus and the Gospel of salvation was not preached once in the weeks I listened. Todd preached on his dreams, visions and experiences, not Christ crucified. In fact, Todd stated, "God told me not to preach on Jesus because they already believe in Him. He told me to preach on the angel." It doesn't get more clear who Todd was lifting up.

The people came to worship and experience God. The songs of worship glorified Him. Even in the statement quoted above, God is mentioned more than Emma.

In fact, Todd stated, "God told me not to preach on Jesus because they already believe in Him. He told me to preach on the angel."

All I'm doing is pointing out a small technicality, that God was lifted up more times than the angels through the course of the meetings.

I think it is entirely possible that a group of people gathered in His name would probably be visited by Him rather than a false spirit, even if the leader happened to make a mistake and think a demon was an angel of God and spent too much time talking about her. Doesn't this fit more with the nature of God, who promised not to give His children a serpent when they asked for the Holy Spirit???

What happened when Moses struck the rock in anger? He wasn't allowed to enter into the Promised Land.

What happened to David after his adultery and involvement in another's death? All of Israel was punished with eternal strife and wars.

To whom much is given, much is required. There are consequences for sin. And Jesus taught us to judge by the fruit. A minister who is actively engaged in adultery is not being blessed and anointed by God and elevated to some new super-Christian level as the so-called apostles there proclaimed. It just doesn't get any simpler than that.

What happened when Moses sinned and struck the rock in anger, is that GOD took mercy upon His people and caused water to flow anyway. He did not sit back in judgement, and allow false spirits to take over and produce poisoned water. He remained God, remained in control of the situation, and the needs of His people were filled.

Too many people have tried to say that God did not visit Lakeland. The entire reason they use to support this belief is because of the sins and shortcomings in TB's life. But this conclusion is based upon the fear of deception, rather than on faith in the God of the Bible -- who according to scripture gives good things to His children even though the person He has chosen to use fails miserably.

I really find the pattern of gross sin among some of the leaders in this wing of the charismatic movement quite significant. Bob Jones manipulating women into stripping naked for him to get a prophetic word. Paul Cain with a long history of homosexuality and alcoholism. Todd Bentley's adulterous affairs and divorce. I could go on and on. Seems to me that if we follow Jesus' instructions to judge by the fruit, then these ministers would never have a following. But they've been pumping their followers with false teachings for a long time, so they aren't mature enough to discern the truth.

Yes, these are serious problems. But the better solution IMO would have been to remove people like Bentley from ministry BEFORE God chooses to use them, rather than trying to fix things after the fact by calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of Satan. Right?

No, God was NOT the central figure of the meetings, TODD BENTLEY was the central figure of the meetings. It was all about him. His ego (and insecurity) were so huge you just couldn't miss it.



peace,
Simon

ROFL.

Can't really argue with that one!

 

[hopeinGod]

The state of 21st century Charismatic Christianity is truly sad.

The Word of Faith 'prosperity Gospel' has has a huge negative impact, then there's the 'Holy Laughter' Charismania, the IHOP insanity, the Latter Rain and the NAR, the Elijah List type of false Prophetic Movement.

Leaders constantly falling into serious sin, controlling and fleecing the flock, even non-WoF ministry leaders earning half million dollar salaries or more, congregants conned into believing it's wrong to judge.

I live in an area with a very high church density, but finding a Charismatic or Pentecostal church that hasn't wandered into one or more of the above serious errors is almost impossible.

Does anyone actually attend a Charismatic/Pentecostal church that hasn't fallen for any of the above? Or should I just give it up?

peace,
Simon

Amen, brother. I have completely set aside any effort to find a fellowship that is well balanced and not into the present Babylonian captivity. It is impossible; but then, the biggest church in my area is Rodney Howard Browne's "The River" which is packed with those seeking anything but the true and living God.

Several of those with whom I was once a part in Jax. Beach, FL, a four hour drive north of here, have taken the bait, relocated to Morningstar and other sign following assemblies in NC. Speaking to one of those men, I was told I am not at all in the will of God if I haven't experienced an impartation and laughing, that I am in denial of the present move of God, and therefore not going on with the Lord. A couple of these men have taken their vision for the ridiculous to Brazil where the naive, newly saved beleivers there are being deceived by the thousands.

It is too embarrassing to me to admit that I am still a Charismatic because of the foolishness that persists. My leaning has always been toward evangelism, not obsessive attendance to meeting after meeting, although I did that for nearly a decade and nearly had a nervous breakdown because of the deadly mixture of manifestations, unscriptural and unbalanced teachings, and the need to produce an image that showed I belonged. I fled in 1980, and, although I tried to return to something, the opposite extreme has also kept me from attendance.

That extreme is built upon the desire by those in leadership to provide a safe haven away from the misled masses; but, in so doing, they have blocked any real movement of God and use of gifts in exchange for religious services where unchallenging, fell-good messages and good works teams are the norm.

It is a difficult place to be today for those who want free of Babylonia's waywardness and walking with brothers and sisters who actually know the truth and are well studied in the first principles and apologetics.

 

[lismore]

You are right, discernment is not purely intellectual.

We are definitely to be discerning because:

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-10

For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible
Matthew 24:24

 

[jamadan]

I think it is entirely possible that a group of people gathered in His name would probably be visited by Him rather than a false spirit, even if the leader happened to make a mistake and think a demon was an angel of God and spent too much time talking about her. Doesn't this fit more with the nature of God, who promised not to give His children a serpent when they asked for the Holy Spirit???

They aren't pursuing the Holy Spirit, they're pursuing laughter, drunkeness, shaking and quaking, angel feathers, gems, gold dust, etc. These revival groupies, and Florida is full of them I'm afraid, have made these manifestations into idols. And God has warned them, but they've rebuked and rejected the warnings and decided they are the only ones walking in the current move of God.

What happened when Moses sinned and struck the rock in anger, is that GOD took mercy upon His people and caused water to flow anyway. He did not sit back in judgement, and allow false spirits to take over and produce poisoned water. He remained God, remained in control of the situation, and the needs of His people were filled.

The people weren't the ones God was holding accountable . . . to whom much is given . . . So in response, you are wrong, God did judge quite severely there. How that judgement manifested is consistent with the sin and the person. Of course there wasn't poison and demons involved, Moses wasn't worshipping idols (aka demons).

Too many people have tried to say that God did not visit Lakeland. The entire reason they use to support this belief is because of the sins and shortcomings in TB's life. But this conclusion is based upon the fear of deception, rather than on faith in the God of the Bible -- who according to scripture gives good things to His children even though the person He has chosen to use fails miserably.

That's not a true statement at all. It's based on extremely dangerous teachings and practices including inviting a demonic principality named 'Emma' to have reign over the meetings - this discerned from Todd's own statements from that stage. When he's standing there saying 'the angel has arrived and she's standing on the stage right there (pointing to the spot)' and then suddenly everyone in the place starts screaming, shaking, quaking and falling over, it doesn't take a theologian to recognize the demonic power on display. Todd wasn't promoting Jesus or the Spirit, he said repeatedly 'angel'. Even Rodney Howard-Browne visited him early on and rebuked him telling him to stop with the teachings and focus on angels and just preach Jesus. Todd ignored him and literally told the crowd the next night about it whipping them into a demonic frenzy extolling the angel in screams of proclamation and worship completely in rebellion to the authority and discipline that was brought to him. I watched it happen. I am not exaggerating.

Yes, these are serious problems. But the better solution IMO would have been to remove people like Bentley from ministry BEFORE God chooses to use them, rather than trying to fix things after the fact by calling the work of the Holy Spirit the work of Satan. Right?

Wrong. It is not the work of the Holy Spirit - I'm telling you straight. It was the work of the devil - God turned them over to their idolatry. And since Todd doesn't submit to any authority, who exactly would you expect could remove him?

 

[Tobias]

They aren't pursuing the Holy Spirit, they're pursuing laughter, drunkeness, shaking and quaking, angel feathers, gems, gold dust, etc. These revival groupies, and Florida is full of them I'm afraid, have made these manifestations into idols. And God has warned them, but they've rebuked and rejected the warnings and decided they are the only ones walking in the current move of God.

You must have an EXTREMELY negative view of the Body of Christ if you think that millions of Christians tuned into Lakeland just to see stuff other than God.

I'm sure SOME people did. And for those who seek out other gods beside our Lord, perhaps that IS all they found. But what about the other 90%? TB told us that God wanted us to learn more about angels. Angels are servants of God. Remove God from the equation and talk only about angels, and you would have seen the numbers dwindle down to any other New Age conference.

That's not a true statement at all. It's based on extremely dangerous teachings and practices including inviting a demonic principality named 'Emma' to have reign over the meetings - this discerned from Todd's own statements from that stage. When he's standing there saying 'the angel has arrived and she's standing on the stage right there (pointing to the spot)' and then suddenly everyone in the place starts screaming, shaking, quaking and falling over, it doesn't take a theologian to recognize the demonic power on display. Todd wasn't promoting Jesus or the Spirit, he said repeatedly 'angel'. Even Rodney Howard-Browne visited him early on and rebuked him telling him to stop with the teachings and focus on angels and just preach Jesus. Todd ignored him and literally told the crowd the next night about it whipping them into a demonic frenzy extolling the angel in screams of proclamation and worship completely in rebellion to the authority and discipline that was brought to him. I watched it happen. I am not exaggerating.

Ok, so maybe it was a dangerous teaching. But who do you place your faith in? God, or the Devil? Which is more powerful? What happens to the true follower of God, when they are led astray by a teaching that puts them in touch with the serpent instead of the Holy Spirit?


I'll tell you what happens. Nothing. Anyone who is truly interested in God will be uninterested in cheep imitations of Him. I personally talked with Emma during the revival. She told me that she was busy on her own assignments, but that she had someone else who would work with me. I felt a presence come to me through the tv. It hung around here for a few days, but I forgot about it and it ain't here no more!

Wrong. It is not the work of the Holy Spirit - I'm telling you straight. It was the work of the devil - God turned them over to their idolatry. And since Todd doesn't submit to any authority, who exactly would you expect could remove him?

I spent most of the revival on my face before God dealing with the issues that He presented to me that needed taken care of. I had to lay down my flesh (which did not really care for this kind of stuff at that particular moment in my life), and accept what God was doing.

In my theology and cosmology, God is so much greater than Satan that He can sovereignly do that despite the sins and shortcomings of the preacher. Those of us who want God will find Him despite the combined efforts of the enemy.

You may feel differently about the situation. You seem to want to control who is allowed to preach and who isn't. But as neither of us are in any position to change that, we can feel powerless against a force that is often times evil.

All we can do is speak. Just like the spies Moses sent into Canaan, we can either give a good report or a negative one. Or like the writers of the Bible, we can accurately report on what God did while acknowledging the failures of His servants.

There's really nothing more to this. God used Lakeland to minister to my heart. I suspect He did the same for countless thousands of other people. So I will take a stand and testify of what the Lord has done for me, in the hope that others who also felt His Presence will not doubt what God has done for them; even in the face of so many who wish to rewrite history and tell them it was demons instead.