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dragongunner

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Are you mocking "Thou shalt not kill"?

Laugh at this thread all that you want to because then you are also laughing at the Teachings and examples of Jesus Christ.

BTW - "They should HAVE listened" and not "They should OF listened".

Thats what you got from that....wow....I spell it out, was mocking your foolishness an folly for being so unlearned but deisring to teach others. Hoping you grow an mature, your still on your self righteous kick.

An you mean YOUR interpetation of the Teachings of Christ.....an the scriptures are of no private interpetation.. You sir are not the final authority like you would like people to believe.....By the way an anti christ according to the scriptures is one that doesn't believe Christ has come in the flesh.....an thats not the NRA. I know alot of people of the NRA that believe in Christ.
 
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John S

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I'm sure that MOST perople in the NRA believe in Christ but that doesn't make them right. MOST people on this site believe in Christ but that doesn't make them right about this topic either.
What is YOUR interpretation of "turning the other cheek"?
What is YOUR interpretation of "walking an extra mile"?
What is YOUR interpretation of giving a thief something extra?
I'm not interpreting anything. I'm stating Biblical verses and since it was NEVER written where He ever owned or used a sword, then I have to assume that He NEVER owned or used a sword. How anyone could think that He would want us to own or use a gun today, is completely beyond my imagination, since He NEVER advocated violence of ANY sort.
The definition of "Christianity" is to think and act in a way that is as close to being "Christ-like" as we can possibly be - and NOT what we want.
If Jesus Christ NEVER ownes or used a weapon, then it doesn't matter at all what we want IF we want to call ourselves "Christian".

Once Jesus Christ returns after the Tribulation, there will NEVER again be another gun on this planet for AT LEAST 1000 years, except MAYBE in a museum as an example of what the "unlightened primitives" used to use.


All or Nothing - Just for the record, unless you are being "smart", my name is John and NOT Josh.
 
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dogs4thewin

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I'm sure that MOST perople in the NRA believe in Christ but that doesn't make them right. MOST people on this site believe in Christ but that doesn't make them right about this topic either.
What is YOUR interpretation of "turning the other cheek"?
What is YOUR interpretation of "walking an extra mile"?
What is YOUR interpretation of giving a thief something extra?
I'm not interpreting anything. I'm stating Biblical verses and since it was NEVER written where He ever owned or used a sword, then I have to assume that He NEVER owned or used a sword. How anyone could think that He would want us to own or use a gun today, is completely beyond my imagination, since He NEVER advocated violence of ANY sort.
The definition of "Christianity" is to think and act in a way that is as close to being "Christ-like" as we can possibly be - and NOT what we want.
If Jesus Christ NEVER ownes or used a weapon, then it doesn't matter at all what we want IF we want to call ourselves "Christian".

Once Jesus Christ returns after the Tribulation, there will NEVER again be another gun on this planet for AT LEAST 1000 years, except MAYBE in a museum as an example of what the "unlightened primitives" used to use.


All or Nothing - Just for the record, unless you are being "smart", my name is John and NOT Josh.
First of all I am sorry for getting the name wrong.
Second of all, however, There is a DIFFERENCE in not suing, in allowing people to "use" you. Allowing people to hit you in anger and allowing people to abuse you all the time, try to shoot you , rape you take something by force. I did NOT say that if I loaned someone $1,000 and they refused to re-pay I would sue them. Nor did I say that I would press charges on someone for stealing something I own (particularly if it was a small amount and not be force) For example, one time at school I lost my purse and couldn't find it. I know someone stole the thing and stuff inside because I had my school ID in it and so if they opened it they would know who it belonged to. Now I never found out who took the person/money HOWEVER even if I did I would not have charged them with the crime. I am also NOT saying that I would charge someone if one time they hit me ( could charge them with battery (assault is a threat battery is the act of going through with it. HOWEVER, if you were consistent in such abuse and/or were abusing a child or someone who could NOT defend himself/herself I will call the police and get them charged or defend myself (by force) if I HAD to (It would NOT be my first choice.) Nor would a start the issue (throw the first punch). I would hope that if I were raped I would report it if for NOTHING else so the person could NOT repeat the act on OTHERS. If I saw someone else getting raped or some other such act you can bet I would try to restrain them by force, if needed That is the difference.
 
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John S

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I don't like these words. I would prefer not to have to follow them. However, I have to TRY to if I want to TRY to be Christ-like, which is the very definition of being Christian.
Just because a person belongs to one of the Christian denominations, that does NOT make that person a Christian. It is how one thinks and acts according to the Teachings and examples of Jesus Christ that determines one's level of "Christianity", whether we like those words and examples or not.
He said that we are supposed to "Love our enemies" and all of the people who do us harm. I'm going to assume that He also meant that we are NOT supposed to shoot them.
 
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dogs4thewin

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I don't like these words. I would prefer not to have to follow them. However, I have to TRY to if I want to TRY to be Christ-like, which is the very definition of being Christian.
Just because a person belongs to one of the Christian denominations, that does NOT make that person a Christian. It is how one thinks and acts according to the Teachings and examples of Jesus Christ that determines one's level of "Christianity", whether we like those words and examples or not.
He said that we are supposed to "Love our enemies" and all of the people who do us harm. I'm going to assume that He also meant that we are NOT supposed to shoot them.
How you understood me to say that ALL people who claim to be Christians are I have little idea I KNOW that. I also have NO idea on EARTH what you do not get about protecting OTHERS from harm (particularly if we do not know if they even claim Christ or not. It is NOT Christ like to sit there and watch someone get hurt and abused. It is such easier, although people do defend themselves I would be like likely to defend others before myself. Explain to me how it is Christ like to allow OTHERS to be abused, used, raped, ECT.
 
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John S

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A "loose" woman was about to be stoned to death.
Did Jesus physically stop the men from killing her? NO
Did He take a sword out and kill them or chase them off? NO.

Whether you like His words or not, let me suggest that you read them again. You can then tell me ALL of the verses that show the violence that Jesus performed.

Because He NEVER owned or used a weapon, neither should any of the people who CLAIM to follow His Teachings.
 
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IisJustMe

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I'm sure that MOST perople in the NRA believe in Christ but that doesn't make them right. MOST people on this site believe in Christ but that doesn't make them right about this topic either.
And your insistence that we are wrong doesn't make you right -- about us being wrong, or about your view on the subject overall.
What is YOUR interpretation of "turning the other cheek"?
What is YOUR interpretation of "walking an extra mile"?
What is YOUR interpretation of giving a thief something extra?
I'm not interpreting anything.
You're absolutely right, you're not interpreting anything, and that is where your misunderstanding lies. As someone else has already said, it is not being a milquetoast and letting someone beat you to a pulp or take unfair advantage of you because of your weakness. Let's look at the passage, shall we?
Matthew 5 NASB
34 "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING.
36 "Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
37 "But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes ' or 'No, no '; anything beyond these is of evil.
38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.'
39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also.
41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two.
42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'
44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven ; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous."
These are examples of standing steadfast when your faith is challenged. They do not imply that we are to allow ourselves to be beaten or killed by the average street thug. It is not about everyday life. It is about that time in which we as Christians throughout history have been persecuted for our faith. It is then that Christ in us speaks for us. Witness by your actions, stand steadfast and let your countenance in Christ speak volumes for your faith.

For example, the Greek is poneros in v.39, and it means, in this context, a person who brings labors, annoyances, hardships, toils and perils to the Christian faith. This is persecution of the Christian for his/her faith. This is a very limited example, and it is mirrored in the Revelation at a time when believers will be expected to take the mark of the beast or literally lose their heads. This is a specific to standing in passive defiance of persecution, allowing your faith to speak louder than the physical actions taken against you. This does not imply that when someone physically attacks you that you remain docile and allow him to pummel you. That would be foolish, and Jesus does not tolerate fools.

By the same token, if you are persecuted and taken to court for your faith, on the way, give them all your possessions. Of what use to us are they in light of who we are and what we have in Christ? Going two miles instead of one? Romans soldiers could force Jews and Christians alike to carry their backpacks and field kit for one mile, the statutory limit as directed by the Roman Senate. The Jews bitterly complained, cursing the soldiers, spitting in their path after completely the forced one-mile march. Jesus offered a powerful alternative. Tell them you will go two miles. Don't argue, complain, spit. Walk in dignity and grace, and present to the solider his gear at the end of the trek and bless his path. What do you think the soldiers would think of this new sect arising in Israel after a few experiences like that? Why do you suppose there were so many faithful Roman soldiers throughout the land, as the faith spread beyond Jerusalem?

In the mundane experiences of our daily life, not facing persecution, Christians are to be "meek" but you need to understand the meaning behind that word in the Greek. It is tapeinos, and it has a "good sense" and a "bad sense." The bad sense is to deporting one's self abjectly, deferring servilely to others. That is what you are claiming we are to do, and that is absolutely false. The good sense is to walk humbly, bu with dignity and strength. We don't defer servilely to anyone, but give way to them by respecting them, giving them the same deference we would expect for ourselves. This is not weakness, it is strength with humility, and with strength comes not only the desire but the right to protect what is ours.
I'm stating Biblical verses and since it was NEVER written where He ever owned or used a sword, then I have to assume that He NEVER owned or used a sword. How anyone could think that He would want us to own or use a gun today, is completely beyond my imagination, since He NEVER advocated violence of ANY sort.
This doesn't take into account what we don't know about Jesus in those years between ages 12 and 30. He was a business owner, in a Roman outpost (Nazareth) which was a wild and out of control military town like most towns near military bases. Do you suppose He presented Himself as Casper Milquetoast to the soldiers and centurions who came to Him for His carpentry services? Do you suppose He simply let whomever come along and steal from Him or refuse to pay for His good? Do you really see our Lord as this cowering, fearful figure who would allow people to take advantage of Him? And don't say "He is God, they wouldn't do that" because He was very aware that His "time had not yet come," as He spoke to His mother at the wedding feast at Cana.

You have a very unrealistic view of our Lord and Savior, and for His desire for us to be safe and secure in our homes, businesses and persons. You feel free to continue to wave the flag of pacifism and try unsuccessfully to attach it to Christ if you wish. The rest of us will stand be what we know to be the truth.
 
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dogs4thewin

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A "loose" woman was about to be stoned to death.
Did Jesus physically stop the men from killing her? NO
Did He take a sword out and kill them or chase them off? NO.

Whether you like His words or not, let me suggest that you read them again. You can then tell me ALL of the verses that show the violence that Jesus performed.

Because He NEVER owned or used a weapon, neither should any of the people who CLAIM to follow His Teachings.
her "crime" and I put it in quotes because SECULAR law does not say that cheating on a partner is a crime ( SECULAR law is what we go by in this country. You do NOT get locked up because Jesus said it was wrong you DO get locked up of society has judged that behavior unacceptable (to the point that it deserves punishment. What she did caused no harm. She was NOT being raped and we know because if she was it would not be cheating that and she would have told Jesus more than likely. Therefore, there was no need to get hands-on. Even police today do their best to avoid using force on people. I will defend people ( by force) and myself if I feel that they are a danger at the time, BUT if not or if they comply when I request them to stop I will do NOTHING. Let me asks you this if you believe that we should NEVER defend ourselves then do you believe we should never go to war? no, because even you mentioned that Christians should not own weapons UNLESS they were on the police force or armed forces. Do you believe that people should never be imprisoned when they break the law ( Christian or not). Sometimes people will not respond to actions that are not forceful. Are you telling me say someone breaks the law, they take them to prison are you trying to tell me if they refuse to comply with a direct order after telling them four and five times to do so that the correction offices ( some of whom are Christian) should not use force to remove them from their cells. When sometimes those inmates are a danger to EVERYBODY officers, other inmates, and even themselves. If that is what you are trying to tell me then I suggest you go to a max. security and see what it would be like without such order. I have seen them on TV and it is not like their (the offices very first action with a non-complying inmate is to force them on the ground. It is not like on the streets the first thing a cop does upon seeing someone break the law or answer a call is to shoot them or even use force to contain them their first step is to politely asks them in a nice voice to comply and if not THEN they will consider using force and they usually do NOT shoot at all unless they are threaten or shot at first, even if they know the person is armed. All of this to say while force hitting and killing should ALWAYS be a last resort we ARE allowed to do it. We live in a SECULAR society where God's laws are not always the law of the land, if we did not defend ourselves this society would be crazy.
 
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IisJustMe

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IJM - If somone was robbing Jesus of His money, what do you think that He would have done?
Before or after He revealed Himself for who He is? If as a carpenter in Nazareth, I'm pretty sure He would have defended what was His. That was all His mother had to live on, His brothers having married and moved into their wives' family enclaves.
 
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John S

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IJM - HOW would He have defended Himself?
BTW - I NEVER meant to imply that I considered Jesus to be weak.
When we turn the other cheek to get punched, it is because we are to remain in charge of the situation.
When we are forced to walk a second mile, it is because we are supposed to remain in charge of the situation.



All or Nothing - That Jewish woman of about 30 A.D. DID commit a crime worthy of death.

Suppose Jesus owned a small carpentry business today. Would He have a gun in His office?
 
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dogs4thewin

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IJM - HOW would He have defended Himself?
BTW - I NEVER meant to imply that I considered Jesus to be weak.
When we turn the other cheek to get punched, it is because we are to remain in charge of the situation.
When we are forced to walk a second mile, it is because we are supposed to remain in charge of the situation.



All or Nothing - That Jewish woman of about 30 A.D. DID commit a crime worthy of death.

Suppose Jesus owned a small carpentry business today. Would He have a gun in His office?
I KNOW she did according to God's law, I HOWEVER am talking about Today's SECULAR laws.
 
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dogs4thewin

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A or N - If Jesus owned a small carpentry business today, would He have a gun in His office?
probably not but you have yet to tell ME what someone is to do if an inmate refuses to comply a Christian officer. Nor have you told me how it is Christ like to not DEFEND SOMEONE ELSE.
 
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John S

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Unfortunately, law enforcement and the military need weapons - but that is only a small percentage of Christians.
Assuming that you are neither in law enforcement nor the military, like the vast majority of the people on this site, then you don't need a gun, ESPECIALLY if you believe that Jesus would never own or use one.
In your opinion, how would Jesus defend someone else?
 
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IisJustMe

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IJM - HOW would He have defended Himself?
He had not revealed Himself to be God as yet, so how do you think He would have defended Himself? Certainly not by calling down fire on the thieves/attackers. Certainly not by supernatural powers of any kind. No, He would have done what any other humble yet strong Jewish man in 1st century Israel would have done.
BTW - I NEVER meant to imply that I considered Jesus to be weak.
I don't believe I said you did, though others could certainly get that idea from your pacifist view of Him.
When we turn the other cheek to get punched, it is because we are to remain in charge of the situation.
And yet again, it is in a very limited situation that Jesus speaks of, an affront to our faith, in which case we are to let Him do the speaking, and He speaks through our actions. BTW, if this occurs in common everyday life, without the issue of faith on the line, when a man strikes you on your right cheek, with what hand would he strike you? Today, it would be the left, as that is the hand to the same side as your right cheek. In Jesus' time on Earth, no one would dare use the left hand to touch another person. Do you know why? Let me give you a hint: Today, in the Mideast, all nationalities, including the Israelis, use the phrase "people of the left hand" as a vile curse. It is the hand that people use to wipe with, to be blunt. Literally, the hand. Tissue paper is not commonly used, unless you are a man of luxury.

It was the same then. Therefore, using the left hand would have been the vilest of insults. So striking the right cheek would be done with the back of the right hand. That requires a motion across the body, one the person struck can see coming. It also doesn't carry as much power as a slap to the left cheek with the open right hand. Hence, Jesus said, "offer him the left also." Did He say to let the attacker strike the left cheek? No, He said simply, "offer it." If the man dares attempt to strike you full force from the right, obviously he intends you harm, and then you are obligated to defend yourself, unless you like being humiliated and beaten. The implication is, one strike is in the heat of the moment, passionate, forgivable. A second attempt to strike bears intent to harm, and will not be tolerated.
When we are forced to walk a second mile, it is because we are supposed to remain in charge of the situation.
And again, same thing.
Suppose Jesus owned a small carpentry business today. Would He have a gun in His office?
Non sequitur.Today He has already revealed Himself as God. When threatened by the Pharisees, scribes and others unwilling to view Him as Messiah, surrounding and closing in on Him, what did He do? He made Himself invisible to them and simply passed through their midst. Before revealing Himself He could not risk pride or superior attitudes by doing such. He would have to act as any man would act in that situation.
 
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ebedmelech

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Unfortunately, law enforcement and the military need weapons - but that is only a small percentage of Christians.
Assuming that you are neither in law enforcement nor the military, like the vast majority of the people on this site, then you don't need a gun, ESPECIALLY if you believe that Jesus would never own or use one.
In your opinion, how would Jesus defend someone else?
John, I think your point of view is fine for you but no matter what you do you will never find a verse of scripture denying Christians ownership of weapons.

You shouldn't be making a blanket statement like this that is indefensible from scripture.

To use Jesus as an example is not proper either because He came as the "Suffering Servant".

I think this is something each Christian has to be persuaded of in his own mind because there are certainly plenty examples in the scriptures where God's people defended themselves.

In Luke 22, why did Jesus tell His disciples it was time that he who had no sword should sell his coat and buy one? When the disciple showed him two swords He said "it is enough". Jesus knew they had a need to defend themselves. However Peter used his sword wrong in trying to free the Lord because the Lord knew his time had come and He had told them that.

Again,I think this is an issue where you allow other Christians the liberty to make a decision on based on their conviction. If a Christian lives in a neighborhood of gang violence and decides he/she needs a weapon for self defense, who are you to deny them when it's lawful to do so? Especially when the Lord does not!

This I will say..Christians that do own weapons should own them lawfully and should have a last resort mentality about using them.

Jesus told His disciples when He sent them out in Matthew 10 He was sending them out among wolves. He then told them to be wise as serpents but harmless as doves. It's my belief in that comparison I believe he used a serpent (snake) for what we know of them...they will not strike unless they are threatened, whereas a dove is not an aggressive creature. So I believe Jesus was telling them be wise but don't be the aggressor.

I think its fine for you to decide you should not own weapons. I think it's wrong for you to tell other Christians that.
 
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IisJustMe

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IJM - Jesus Christ was/is a pacifist.
Let me tell you why that isn't true. (I apologize in advance for the length I know this is going to be. I trust it is worth the time to read.)

"The search for the historical Jesus" is generally a search for ways to make Jesus say the things we think He ought to have said if He'd possessed our wisdom. The historical reality is that Jesus lived in a society under military occupation by a foreign empire, and one swarming with insurgent groups at that. He had two members of those groups among his closest disciples -- Simon the Zealot, and Judas, who likely was also a member of one insurgent group or another, given his predilection for forcing Jesus into a situation whereby he would "have to" exert His deictic power to throw Rome out of Israel. If Jesus had ever meant to condemn imperialism or endorse "liberation theology" or "wars of national liberation," He had one of the most perfect settings in all history to do so. Not only did He not do so, but Roman soldiers are just about the only group in the New Testament who are given complimentary treatment. When a group of soldiers came to John the Baptist asking what they needed to do to be saved, he told them not to abuse their power. He didn't even remotely suggest they should quit the army.

It gets worse for those who would make Jesus a pacifist. He was put to death on trumped up charges. What a perfect opportunity to condemn capital punishment. Yet, while He and two criminals were dying, one of the criminals chided the other one, saying that they were only getting what they deserved. What a perfect place to say that nobody deserves to die at the hands of the state, that the criminals are really victims of unequal wealth, lack of empowerment, and poor self-esteem. Jesus, apparently failing completely to understand what was at stake, instead promised His defender on the adjacent cross that he would join Him in heaven that very day. His followers, while they condemned the execution of Jesus and some of his followers, always did so on the sophistic grounds that they were innocent and morally in the right. Not once did they challenge the right of the state to take the life of genuine criminals.

Attempts to equate Christianity and pacifism simply don't stand scrutiny. Christianity does not teach that non-human life is sacred. Jesus and his followers ate animal products. And while Christianity does teach that human life is sacred, Christ nonetheless told his followers not to fear those who merely destroyed the body, and said that he who loved his life would lose it.

OK, so what about "Thou shalt not kill?" Have you ever noticed that in spite of "Thou shalt not kill," David still slew Goliath? Why two different words?

Because the original meaning of kill was more nearly that of murder, whereas slay meant homicide in general, including the justifiable homicide that occurs in war. Although there's some overlap in usage in the Bible, generally actions like killing in battle are translated with slay. The distinction was clear in the 1600's when the King James Bible was published. It's only when we became intellectually sloppy that we blurred the distinction between the two words.

This is a pons asinorum (bridge of asses) -- an initial first step that has to be made before any productive discussion can begin. People who trot out "thou shalt not kill" as a basis for pacifism are revealing only their inadequate study of God's word. So how does this relate to whether a person should own a weapon, or exert force when necessary?

Before we go any further, take your mouse and put the cursor on this bold lettering.

Now, notice what you did. In order to move the mouse, you had to exert force, and very precise and gentle force at that. You didn't rip the mouse cord out of the computer, or crush the mouse in your grip, or push so hard on it that you mashed the trackball flat or punch a hole in the touchpad. The notion that force inexorably spirals out of control is precisely that trivially easy to refute.

Now it's probably true that resorting to unnecessary violence may very well lead to retaliation. So restraint in dealing with confrontations is usually a good idea. But all the talk about "ending the cycle of violence" fails to address the key question of what do we do about people who have already turned to violence as their tactic of choice? After all, as a problem-solving tool, "violence first" has a couple of things going for it:

  • It's simple
  • It gets results, especially after word gets around that you don't hesitate to use violence
  • It's gratifying. You get to vent pent-up rage, feel dominance over others, maybe even a sexual turn-on
Most pacifists react to this issue by simply pretending that it doesn't exist, that people either never deliberately choose violence, that violence always stems from earlier violence, poverty, or injustice, or that if people do deliberately choose violence, it's in rare cases that are not really of great importance. But history abounds with examples of people who have deliberately chosen violence. The ease with which people from non-violent backgrounds have been induced to commit atrocities in wartime shows how easy it can be for the violent to recruit assistants, and for the gratification factor to take hold. Thus, a single individual who opts for violence because he enjoys domination may succeed in recruiting many others less bold than he is.

How do we respond to people who have opted for violence? Appeasement merely reinforces the conviction that violence gets results. The best historical example of this is British PM Neville Chamberlain trying to "appease" Hitler by giving up greater and greater chunks of Europe, hoping to satisify the appetite of the monster. We all know how well that worked. Moreover, appeasement provides gratification by reinforcing the feeling of dominance. When confronting people who have already opted for violence, non-violence has a very good chance of perpetuating the cycle of violence. Again, look to the example of Hitler's reaction to Chamberlain's "appeasement." It resulted in greater and greater demands and larger and larger acts of war and atrocity ending in utter enslavement and destruction of whole nations, not satisfaction and a laying down of arms. Retaliatory force, on the other hand, makes the results of violence a lot less simple, a lot less effective in getting results, and a lot less gratifying. Once violence is adopted by the aggressor, it leaves very little choice for the victims of aggression other than to adopt a violent retaliation, if they don't consider defeat and domination an acceptable option.

Furthermore, violence is only the far end of the spectrum of force. Every screaming brat who throws a temper tantrum in public is testimony to the fact that children do not need to be taught the use of force. And regardless how loving, benevolent and diligent a parent is in meeting and supplying the child's needs, every child sooner or later runs into the fact that other people, much less the physical universe, will not fully meet the desires and demands inherent in all of us. Sooner or later every human being has to face the fact that some desires will not be gratified.

When the Persian Gulf War broke out, critics of the war complained that we had not given diplomacy enough time to do the job. Years later, after a decade of economic sanctions had reduced Iraq to utter misery, many of the same people were complaining that sanctions should have ended because they had failed and because they were causing great suffering. The direct result of this wishy-washiness was Operation Iraqi Freedom, made necessary by the unrepentant hubris of Sadaam Hussein who, being unable to violently force his will on the world, decided to limit his exercise of brutality toward his own people while being aided and abetted by opinion among members of the world society who were willing to apologize to this animal for his being treated better than he deserved. What he deserved for starving his people and leaving them without any semblance of adequate humanitarian care was to be assassinated and replaced, but the pacifists were unwilling to take that responsibility, despite the fact it was obvious he was killing his own people to spite the world.

So what, exactly, was diplomacy supposed to accomplish in 1991? The only actions we can take against a country from outside are to blockade it. If blockade has not been effective after ten years, and if a blockade is considered morally objectionable if it causes human suffering, then exactly what measures were we supposed to take against Iraq? It is my contention that, despite the hand-wringing and uncalled-for apologies of the pacifist front -- an overarching attitude that eventually forced us out of Iraq before we accomplished what the majority of Iraq's democracy-seeking people wanted us to help them acheive -- we nonetheless accomplished in Iraq most of what we should have finished 21 years ago, the first time around. The pity is we were forced to abandon them by the pacifist-Marxist front pervading the liberal wing of US politics.

I suggest that pacifists have a moral and intellectual obligation to answer the following questions:

  • What specific measures will lead to a peaceful solution?
  • What evidence do you have that these measures will work?
  • What criteria will we use to decide if the pacifist approach has failed?
For example, saying "The United States should have relied more on diplomacy to capture Osama bin Laden" doesn't cut it. What specific diplomatic approaches should we have tried? What evidence is there that they would have worked? How long should we have persisted before concluding that they didn't work? Are there other criteria (credible evidence of bin Laden acquiring nuclear weapons, for example) that would justify immediate, violent, retaliatory action? Or would there ever be any regard whatsoever for such "credible evidence" among the pacifist elite?

It isn't as easy as you wish to make it. Hard questions get asked, hard answers are considered, and the result is often something no one wants, but something that is inevitably necessary if we want to remain secure in our persons, our homes and in our nation.
 
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John S

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IJM - So what would a humble yet strong 1st Century Jewish man have done if He were being robbed? It's a simple question.

Evedmelech - That's my point. You have it backwards. There is NO Scripture saying that Jesus ever owned or used a weapon. Therefore, "Christians" shouldn't own or use them because He never did. Being Christ-like IS the very definition of the word Christianity.
Some people will make the bogus argument that because He never owned a car, that today's Christians shouldn't own one either. It is a bad argument because cars weren't invented yet - and neither were computers, electricity, or any of the other things that we use today. BUT weapons were invented and Jesus NEVER had one - and neither should we.
 
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ebedmelech

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IJM - So what would a humble yet strong 1st Century Jewish man have done if He were being robbed? It's a simple question.

Evedmelech - That's my point. You have it backwards. There is NO Scripture saying that Jesus ever owned or used a weapon. Therefore, "Christians" shouldn't own or use them because He never did. Being Christ-like IS the very definition of the word Christianity.
Some people will make the bogus argument that because He never owned a car, that today's Christians shouldn't own one either. It is a bad argument because cars weren't invented yet - and neither were computers, electricity, or any of the other things that we use today. BUT weapons were invented and Jesus NEVER had one - and neither should we.
That is the point John. Jesus is in a totally different category. He is God incarnate. When you can command a storm to be silent, why do you need a weapon?
 
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