Mary and the Scriptures

[CatholicFlame]

I'd like to open this thread with a prayer:

Lord God, please use this thread to bring forth truth and light, use this to lead us closer to your Son Jesus, through whatever means you may do so. In Jesus Name I pray, Amen.

I'd like to show some scriptures that show the catholic understanding of Mary. I'd love to discuss these with anyone who wants to.

Why God choses certain people to help Him

"God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble." 1 Peter 5:5

"Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23:12

"And coming to her, (the angel) said, 'Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."

"For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed." Luke 1:48

I would venture to say, since Mary was the most favored person to have ever lived, she is also the most exalted. Why do I condsider her the most favored? Because she is the person who, of all people who ever lived, got to be closest to Jesus.

"Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb." Luke 1:42

God chooses the humble to help him, people who are humble enough to obey him, as oppsed to the proud who will not obey God, choosing their own path. Mary, of all people, had the most important work ever, outside of Christ, who is God. To not only give birth to Jesus, but to raise him. For Jesus

"advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man." Luke 2:52

in other words, Jesus learned. And Mary taught Him (they homeschooled in those days).

What do you think?

 

[MamaZ]

I'd like to open this thread with a prayer:

Lord God, please use this thread to bring forth truth and light, use this to lead us closer to your Son Jesus, through whatever means you may do so. In Jesus Name I pray, Amen.

I'd like to show some scriptures that show the catholic understanding of Mary. I'd love to discuss these with anyone who wants to.

Why God choses certain people to help Him

"God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble." 1 Peter 5:5

"Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted." Matthew 23:12

"And coming to her, (the angel) said, 'Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."

"For he has looked upon his handmaid's lowliness; behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed." Luke 1:48

I would venture to say, since Mary was the most favored person to have ever lived, she is also the most exalted. Why do I condsider her the most favored? Because she is the person who, of all people who ever lived, got to be closest to Jesus.

"Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb." Luke 1:42

God chooses the humble to help him, people who are humble enough to obey him, as oppsed to the proud who will not obey God, choosing their own path. Mary, of all people, had the most important work ever, outside of Christ, who is God. To not only give birth to Jesus, but to raise him. For Jesus

"advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man." Luke 2:52

in other words, Jesus learned. And Mary taught Him (they homeschooled in those days).

What do you think?

Well since the scripture I outlined was taken out of the full context of what was being said. I do not believe Mary is any more special that any woman is that belongs to the Lord.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Well since the scripture I outlined was taken out of the full context of what was being said. I do not believe Mary is any more special that any woman is that belongs to the Lord.

I think you meant to say that not you, but I have not looked upon scripture in its full context.

At any rate, my premise is that the more humble/ lowly you are, the more exalted will you be. Don't you hold this to be a biblical truth? if not, can you give me some scriptures that show why not? I have these and many other scriptures that say it is true. thanks for posting

 

[asiyreh]

If Mary is escalated to the position of co-redemptress will you pray to this "Mary" for your salvation?

 

[CatholicFlame]

If Mary is escalated to the position of co-redemptress will you pray to this "Mary" for your salvation?

your question sounds like a trap. Kind of like how they used to try and trap Jesus, remember that? You have the same tone in your voice... the problem with your question is: you already have a false understanding of what any catholic would mean by co-redemptrix. Secondly, you have a false concept of what we believe about prayer to the saints. Thirdly, you have a false concept of how Mary, or anyone for that matter, could help you along the path of salvation. How shall I answer if no matter what I say, you will think I mean something other than what I catholics actually believe?

Fulton Sheen said that there are millions who hate what they believe catholicism to be, but there are few who hate what it actual is.

 

[narnia59]

Well since the scripture I outlined was taken out of the full context of what was being said. I do not believe Mary is any more special that any woman is that belongs to the Lord.

Why does Elizabeth ask "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

Why does Elizabeth view a visit from Mary as a special favor she has received, if Mary is, as you say, no more special than any woman who belongs to the Lord?

 

[asiyreh]

your question sounds like a trap. Kind of like how they used to try and trap Jesus, remember that? You have the same tone in your voice... the problem with your question is: you already have a false understanding of what any catholic would mean by co-redemptrix. Secondly, you have a false concept of what we believe about prayer to the saints. Thirdly, you have a false concept of how Mary, or anyone for that matter, could help you along the path of salvation. How shall I answer if no matter what I say, you will think I mean something other than what I catholics actually believe?

Fulton Sheen said that there are millions who hate what they believe Catholicism to be, but there are few who hate what it actual is.

Sorry, wrong my friend; I understand all too well - look at my little flag up there. I'm Irish, worse than that for your argument i'm Northern Irish my family life, my work, my friends, my upbringing,my politics, my culture, is steeped in Catholicism.
For me to take the view point I have isn't just some chosen point of logic, it's actually dangerous.

Now you're right I did ask a loaded question, unfortunately I can't just come onto this section of the forum and unload everything I know about Catholicism and Mary worship. I respect the authorities of this website as I am commanded by "Our Lord."
My question you see was meant to shock you, give you a little jolt, to ask you how far along the path are you prepared to tread to follow the appearances and utterances of this angel of light.

Oh I know all the arguments, Christ can't refuse to give anything to his mother so pray to her. Etc etc.

But you see my friend there's a prescribed was of talking to God already given in the bible.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5

Now there's a reason for that. In the first covenant, when the Jews broke God's law they had to sacrifice the lamb for the forgiveness of sins and to regain access to communication with the Lord. This was a typology of Christ a pointing forward.

Consider the story of Cain and Able:-
And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted?
Gen 4:3-7

Over and over again these analogies are made. These pointing forward typologies of Christ.

Now I understand all too well the explanations you guys are given, why you should pray to Mary. Mary acts as the wrath appeaser. Holding back the angry God. Oh I've read that little book Our Lady's message to the world. The little baby Jesus is asleep pray to me etc etc.

Or how about this, pray to this guy, "Saint" Thomas More. A guy who liked to put people to death for the despicable crimes of reading the bible in English.

No you see there is a reason why you are told to pray to Christ and none other my friend.

Now listen I'm not going to initiate a conversation lest I be accused of something. But if you Pm me, we can talk openly. What I've said here is a mere opening breath, of what I could tell you about this subject. Who knows maybe you might even convince me Mary adoration is a good idea. I doubt it, but maybe, it's worth a shot. Pm me.

 

[MamaZ]

I think you meant to say that not you, but I have not looked upon scripture in its full context.

At any rate, my premise is that the more humble/ lowly you are, the more exalted will you be. Don't you hold this to be a biblical truth? if not, can you give me some scriptures that show why not? I have these and many other scriptures that say it is true. thanks for posting

I guess I would have to ask you what you mean by exalted. What I meant to say is that the scripture you posted and I high lighted was taken out of the full context of what was being said. We have to take scripture in its full context. So using that scripture to exhalt Mary when in fact the full context shows Jesus dismissing what was being said shows that even though that was put in scripture Jesus said on the contrary this is what is important and goes on to say what was. We are to humble ourselves before God. For we are all saved by Grace. Gods unmerrited favor.

 

[MamaZ]

Why does Elizabeth ask "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

Why does Elizabeth view a visit from Mary as a special favor she has received, if Mary is, as you say, no more special than any woman who belongs to the Lord?

Read the context. She was pregnant with John. The baby leaped when Mary visited. Elizabeth had her eyes opened that day To Christ. Not to Mary.

 

[narnia59]

Read the context. She was pregnant with John. The baby leaped when Mary visited. Elizabeth had her eyes opened that day To Christ. Not to Mary.

I have read the context. Elizabeth certainly recognizes the baby that Mary is carrying is her Lord. However, she not only acknowledges that the child is blessed, she also proclaims that Mary is "blessed among women". She asks the question as to why she has been so honored by a visit from the mother of her Lord. She understands that being the mother of the Lord is indeed something special, and blesses Mary apart from other women.

You say that Mary is no more special than any Christian woman -- Elizabeth, whom Scripture says is inspired by the Holy Spirit, says she is blessed among women. As those are completely opposite views, I do believe I'll stick with how the Holy Spirit chose to speak through Elizabeth and profess that Mary is blessed among women, not just another one of the crowd.

 

[asiyreh]

Here's an interesting fact. Do you know there's actually only 2 references to the queen of heaven in the bible.

Jeremiah 44:17–25
17 But we will do everything that we have vowed, make offerings to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, pas we did, both we and our fathers, our kings and our officials, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, and prospered, and saw no disaster. 18 But since we left off making offerings to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.” 19 And the women said, “When we made offerings to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, was it without our husbands’ approval that we made cakes for her bearing her image and poured out drink offerings to her?”
20 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, men and women, all the people who had given him this answer: 21 “As for the offerings that you offered in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, you and your fathers, your kings and your officials, and the people of the land, did not the Lord remember them? Did it not come into his mind? 22 The Lord could no longer bear your evil deeds and the abominations that you committed. Therefore your land has become a desolation and a waste and a curse, without inhabitant, as it is this day.

Jeremiah 7:18
18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger.

It's funny the one true church would choose that particular title for Mary. Hmm maybe they didn't realize these verses existed. Yes that must be it.

 

[narnia59]

Here's an interesting fact. Do you know there's actually only 2 references to the queen of heaven in the bible.

Jeremiah 44:17–25
17 But we will do everything that we have vowed, make offerings to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, pas we did, both we and our fathers, our kings and our officials, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, and prospered, and saw no disaster. 18 But since we left off making offerings to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.” 19 And the women said, “When we made offerings to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, was it without our husbands’ approval that we made cakes for her bearing her image and poured out drink offerings to her?”
20 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, men and women, all the people who had given him this answer: 21 “As for the offerings that you offered in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, you and your fathers, your kings and your officials, and the people of the land, did not the Lord remember them? Did it not come into his mind? 22 The Lord could no longer bear your evil deeds and the abominations that you committed. Therefore your land has become a desolation and a waste and a curse, without inhabitant, as it is this day.

Jeremiah 7:18
18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger.

It's funny the one true church would choose that particular title for Mary. Hmm maybe they didn't realize these verses existed. Yes that must be it.

Since it was the one true church who hand copied all of those Scriptures for centuries so they could be available to all the congregations, I can say with quite certainty they realized those verses existed.

I also realize that just because there were false gods people worshipped, one should not conclude that there is not really a true God. Likewise I realize that just because there is a false queen of heaven the people worshipped, one should not conclude there is not a true queen of heaven. Have you not read that Satan has an imitation for all that is good?

I also realize that Jesus is truly the son of David, the rightful heir to the throne of the Davidic kingdom. And when I read about the "type" of Christ that is the literal son of David (Solomon) and heir to the throne in the OT, I discover who the queen of Solomon's kingdom is. Would you suggest that the OT gives us a "type" of Christ, the literal "son of David" (Solomon), with a "type" of kingdom that foreshadows the kingdom of Christ, with a "type" of queen (the mother of the king) who is in reality a false pagan goddess? Or is the false pagan goddess Satan's imitation of the reality?

 

[Trogool]

Why do some people hate Mary so much? I think that is the real elephant in the room which is never addressed.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

 

[asiyreh]

Is there not a true queen of heaven

You are the queen of heaven my dear, strange for me to be saying this but I am the queen of heaven. Christ made the marriage covenant a typology for his bride the church. He is the bridegroom.

Consider this passage not mean't to discredit Mary or show lack of respect. But just to give you general direction on Christ's priorities.

46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Matthew 12 46-50

 

[asiyreh]

Why do some people hate Mary so much? I think that is the real elephant in the room which is never addressed.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

If that's directed at me I most certainly do not hate Mary the mother of Christ. I am simply asking people to test the spirits. Find out if what they say is in accordance with scripture. If not it is to be rejected outright no matter who they claim to be. And when you stand before Christ you will be justified in his Word.

 

[narnia59]

You are the queen of heaven my dear, strange for me to be saying this but I am the queen of heaven. Christ made the marriage covenant a typology for his bride the church. He is the bridegroom.

Consider this passage not mean't to discredit Mary or show lack of respect. But just to give you general direction on Christ's priorities.

46While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Matthew 12 46-50

It does show Christ's priorities -- faithfulness trumps blood. Mary however, has both. Remember "let it be done unto me according to thy word"?

We are indeed the bride of Christ. The queen however, is not the bride. Hence Solomon (son of David, the annointed one, the "type" of Christ) had many brides (representing the church) but only one queen -- his mother.

Consider that we know that there are two special places reserved at the right and left hand of Jesus, confirmed by his own words, and that these places have been reserved by the Father for two people(Matthew 20:23). Psalm 45:9 tells us that "at your right hand stands the queen in gold of Ophir". Coincidentally, this is where King Solomon (that "type" of Christ) sits his mother as queen -- at his right hand.

Traditionally the place at the left is seen to be reserved for John the Baptist. Why? Because he is the "friend of the bridegroom", the "best man" at the wedding. John 3:29 "29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice; therefore this joy of mine is now full."

We are indeed the bride of Christ. And at the wedding, two special places are reserved by the Father at the right and left hands of Christ -- one for his mother, the queen, and one for the friend of the bridegroom -- John the Baptist.

 

[asiyreh]

Whao! That's a stretch. Are you familiar with the term Hebrew parallelism? When God's trying to make a point he'll usually repeat himself first saying something one way then another.

But Ok let's say we grant you that. It's quite nice... lol sneaky, but nice. However this is the real point I'm trying to make.

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Revelation 22:8-9.

At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!"Revelation 19:10

I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her.
Luke 1:38

Do you see?

 

[narnia59]

Whao! That's a stretch. Are you familiar with the term Hebrew parallelism? When God's trying to make a point he'll usually repeat himself first saying something one way then another.

But Ok let's say we grant you that. It's quite nice... lol sneaky, but nice. However this is the real point I'm trying to make.

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Revelation 22:8-9.

At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God!"Revelation 19:10

Do you see?

If it's such a "stretch" I don't suppose you'd care to offer an opinion about who will be sitting in those two places that would be less a stretch?

Do I see/know/accept/understand that only God is to be worshipped (using the modern day usage/meaning of the English word worship, of course, as opposed to the historical usage/meaning of the word worship)?

Um, yes.

 

[asiyreh]

Ok good night night.

 

[Standing Up]

Here's an interesting fact. Do you know there's actually only 2 references to the queen of heaven in the bible.

Jeremiah 44:17–25
17 But we will do everything that we have vowed, make offerings to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, pas we did, both we and our fathers, our kings and our officials, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, and prospered, and saw no disaster. 18 But since we left off making offerings to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.” 19 And the women said, “When we made offerings to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, was it without our husbands’ approval that we made cakes for her bearing her image and poured out drink offerings to her?”
20 Then Jeremiah said to all the people, men and women, all the people who had given him this answer: 21 “As for the offerings that you offered in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, you and your fathers, your kings and your officials, and the people of the land, did not the Lord remember them? Did it not come into his mind? 22 The Lord could no longer bear your evil deeds and the abominations that you committed. Therefore your land has become a desolation and a waste and a curse, without inhabitant, as it is this day.

Jeremiah 7:18
18 The children gather wood, the fathers kindle fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven. And they pour out drink offerings to other gods, to provoke me to anger.

It's funny the one true church would choose that particular title for Mary. Hmm maybe they didn't realize these verses existed. Yes that must be it.

Maybe. We know Marcion flourished at Rome c150ad. He 'tore out' the OT and all reference to Jesus prior to baptism. So, maybe they didn't know and the idea just stuck. Don't know. Haven't looked into whether there really is a connection.