Mary and the Scriptures

[CatholicFlame]

I guess I would have to ask you what you mean by exalted. What I meant to say is that the scripture you posted and I high lighted was taken out of the full context of what was being said. We have to take scripture in its full context. So using that scripture to exhalt Mary when in fact the full context shows Jesus dismissing what was being said shows that even though that was put in scripture Jesus said on the contrary this is what is important and goes on to say what was. We are to humble ourselves before God. For we are all saved by Grace. Gods unmerrited favor.

I do agree with you that justification is a free unmerited gift from God, if that is what you are saying. But for the sake of my point about Mary being exalted, it must be clearly answered, will some people in heaven have more exalted places or not? If you believe not, then let's look at the scriptures concerning this together. If so, then I beleive I have made a valdi point about Mary being the most exalted person in Heaven, besides God of course.

 

[CatholicFlame]

For me to take the view point I have isn't just some chosen point of logic, it's actually dangerous.

Now you're right I did ask a loaded question, unfortunately I can't just come onto this section of the forum and unload everything I know about Catholicism and Mary worship. I respect the authorities of this website as I am commanded by "Our Lord."
My question you see was meant to shock you, give you a little jolt, to ask you how far along the path are you prepared to tread to follow the appearances and utterances of this angel of light.

ok so what it seems like you are saying here is that you aren't willing to accept that Mary is the most exalted human being in heaven, not because the bible doesnt teach such a thing, but because you are afraid of what accepting that would lead to. am I correct in this assumption?

 

[MamaZ]

I do agree with you that justification is a free unmerited gift from God, if that is what you are saying. But for the sake of my point about Mary being exalted, it must be clearly answered, will some people in heaven have more exalted places or not? If you believe not, then let's look at the scriptures concerning this together. If so, then I beleive I have made a valdi point about Mary being the most exalted person in Heaven, besides God of course.

Why would she be the Most exhaulted? I see the Apostles exhaulted and going to judge the 12 tribes. I do not see Mary even mentioned about in the Heavens though. I don't know if you believe that if someone humbles themselves, that it is in the Heavens that they will be exhaulted.

 

[SolomonVII]

.....
We are indeed the bride of Christ. The queen however, is not the bride. Hence Solomon (son of David, the annointed one, the "type" of Christ) had many brides (representing the church) but only one queen -- his mother.

.....

Was not the mother of Solomon Bathsheba, an adulteress?

 

[CatholicFlame]

Why would she be the Most exhaulted? I see the Apostles exhaulted and going to judge the 12 tribes. I do not see Mary even mentioned about in the Heavens though. I don't know if you believe that if someone humbles themselves, that it is in the Heavens that they will be exhaulted.

I am not sure about your last line there. Did you mean that you dont know if you believe they would be exalted?

The reason why Mary would be the most exalted is because the Holy Spirit said she would be, speaking through Elizabeth:

"Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among woman, and blesed is the fruit of your womb." Luke 1:41-42

This proclaimation points out that Mary is the most blessed of woman, she is the most exalted. I also pointed out some sriptures in my opening statement that show that to be favored in such a way, Mary must have been the most humble. This is becuase to be the most blessed, she would have had first to be the most humble. Think of the works that God gives people to do, some have great impact of bringing people to Christ. St. Paul will surely be exalted in Heaven for the amount of good preaching he did. He brought Christ to others. Well Mary, also brought Christ to others, She brought us Christ, through her work in God's grace.

 

[narnia59]

Was not the mother of Solomon Bathsheba, an adulteress?

Any more so than King David, who was not only an adulterer but also a murderer?

Not sure I get your point. All of the typologies in the OT are seen in the reality of their sin. Adam, who brought sin into the world is still a "type" of Christ, is he not?

 

[Standing Up]

Why would she be the Most exhaulted? I see the Apostles exhaulted and going to judge the 12 tribes. I do not see Mary even mentioned about in the Heavens though. I don't know if you believe that if someone humbles themselves, that it is in the Heavens that they will be exhaulted.

Christ puts an end to that idea when they yell blessed is she who... and He replies, rather, blessed are those who ...

Exalting flesh (or the flip side of docetism) is very easy to do.

 

[MamaZ]

I am not sure about your last line there. Did you mean that you dont know if you believe they would be exalted?

I was asking if you believe they are not exalted until they pass from this life.

The reason why Mary would be the most exalted is because the Holy Spirit said she would be, speaking through Elizabeth:

The Holy Spirit did not say she would be. Read the full context.

"Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, "Most blessed are you among woman, and blesed is the fruit of your womb." Luke 1:41-42

IF you notice she was blessed among women and not exalted above any other women.

This proclaimation points out that Mary is the most blessed of woman, she is the most exalted. I also pointed out some sriptures in my opening statement that show that to be favored in such a way, Mary must have been the most humble. This is becuase to be the most blessed, she would have had first to be the most humble. Think of the works that God gives people to do, some have great impact of bringing people to Christ. St. Paul will surely be exalted in Heaven for the amount of good preaching he did. He brought Christ to others. Well Mary, also brought Christ to others, She brought us Christ, through her work in God's grace.

Scripture does not state that Mary is exalted above anyone. Using human reasoning to try to explain what you believe does not make it truth. I see no where in scripture Mary being mentioned after the Gospels other than in Acts when she was gatherd with believers in the upper room.

 

[MamaZ]

Christ puts an end to that idea when they yell blessed is she who... and He replies, rather, blessed are those who ...

Exalting flesh (or the flip side of docetism) is very easy to do.

 

[jataylo]

I think there a few points that needed to be added to this discussion. First is that the Jeremiah verses are out of context--they concern by my understanding the Assyro-Babylonian Ishtar, a goddess of fertility, that followers offered cakes shaped like stars to.

Next, Catholism 101 for those who are not aware. We do not treat Mary as God or adore Mary, that is only reserved for God alone. We do however, ask Mary to intercede for us. This does not contradict our belief that there is only one mediator between God and man, our Lord Jesus Christ. Everything goes through Mary to Jesus and anything we receive from Mary comes from Jesus. If I ask you to pray for me will you refuse on the basis that their is only one mediator between God and man--and you are not it? And if your prayers for me are answered, does that mean it came from you--or Jesus? I have problems understanding why someone experiencing everlasting life and in union with the Holy Trinity would be so much different from someone on Earth in their ability and desire to pray for us. James 5:16 tells us that the prayers of righteous person availth much, is there anymore righteous than those united with Jesus in Heaven?

Let us also consider other Bible with reference to Mary: Should we not pray as the Psalms as the KJV puts it "Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints. O Lord, truly I am thy servant; and the son of thine handmaid; thou hast loosed my bonds."(Ps 116:15-16).

In John 19 we see John is not referred to as John, but the beloved disciple, and Jesus gives his mother to him, and him to His mother. In Rev 12 we need to look also at this woman who gave birth to Christ, and in verse 17 we find that she is the mother of others that the devil wages war against who keep the commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. She is also our mother. In Rev 12:1-2 we see that in Heaven she is present with a crown of 12 stars, and clothed in the sun with the moon at her feet. Is that promised to us also, or is this a special honor God bestows on Mary? Would Jesus not honor His mother and father? Should we degrade our spiritual mother and talk evil about her? What does it say for us if Mary who God said through the angel Gabriel is "highly favored" (Lk1:28, KJV),and whom God has done great things for (Lk 1:49) can carry Jesus physically inside of her and physically live with Him all those years and love him only as a mother can love a child, and still be a reched person--what chance do we have? It doesn't make sense to me. Should we really work on trying to rid out what the Bible says through Mary's canticle that "all generations will call me blessed" (Lk 1:48).

Also, let us not forget the detail that God had in building the Ark of the Convenant, the dwelling place of God among his people. Why would God put so much detail in that Ark, but for Mary not want the same detail for his dwelling place for 9 months? And does Lk 6:43-44 have some special exemption to Mary? If the "tree is know by it's fruit" then shouldn't Mary be know for the tree she was born as, as the mother of Jesus? Should we not love Mary for nothing more than the way she loved Jesus prior to His horrible Passion.

Regardless of your faith, I believe everyone who strives to live a Christian life can see the wisdom in an old saying of the Catholic Church, which is: Love Jesus as Mary loved Jesus, and love Mary as Jesus loved Mary.

 

[SolomonVII]

Any more so than King David, who was not only an adulterer but also a murderer?

Not sure I get your point. All of the typologies in the OT are seen in the reality of their sin. Adam, who brought sin into the world is still a "type" of Christ, is he not?

Well, I guess I am not sure that I getting your point either.
Solomon had a mother, and so did Jesus, so that is a typology?!!

If it was to compare Mary with Bathsheeba, and how important she was in comparison to the thousand wives who weren't his mother, then character seemed a little relevant.

It was pretty much over for David, after Bathsheeba. It is a rather grim story, pretty much the beginning of the end for the Davidic dynasty as a whole even.

 

[asiyreh]

I think there a few points that needed to be added to this discussion. First is that the Jeremiah verses are out of context--they concern by my understanding the Assyro-Babylonian Ishtar, a goddess of fertility, that followers offered cakes shaped like stars to.

Next, Catholism 101 for those who are not aware. We do not treat Mary as God or adore Mary, that is only reserved for God alone.

Ever hear the expression a picture speaks a thousand words. Well here's three.

These pictures represent the breaking of two commandments for the price of one.

A. Worshiping false gods, namely the aforementioned Ishtar for that's exactly who this is. Usually appearing in this garb - Isis, or one of her other favorites the goddess of reason or any number of others...

B. Now maybe you Catholics mightn't be aware of this commandment. I certainly wasn't, but it's the second,

I've highlighted the beginning of the commandment in bold meaning you should read it slowly.

You will NOT make onto yourselves graven images of anything in heaven

Also have a read at these verses again and try to see if you can guess the parallel.

8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it NOT: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Revelation 22:8-9

I am the Lord's servant," Mary answered. "May it be to me as you have said." Then the angel left her. Luke 1:38

 

[MamaZ]

Well I love the Lord. I know Mary is my sister in the Lord. I never knew her to show the Love of the Lord.

 

[CatholicFlame]

Christ puts an end to that idea when they yell blessed is she who... and He replies, rather, blessed are those who ...

Exalting flesh (or the flip side of docetism) is very easy to do.

I would say be careful not to dismiss other scriptures when you find one that seems to prove your point. We must take all of them together as a whole to get a full meaning of what is being implied.

Jesus truly is teaching here that the most blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it. This is what will define a person as blessed, and might I also say, they will be exalted for it.

However, you cant make this out to mean that Mary isnt the most blessed based on this scripture! Why? Because Mary is one of the people who heard the word of God and kept it. If Elizabeth, speaking by the Holy Spirit said that Mary is most blessed among all women, then you cannot disregard that. You must take that to be true, and then couple that knowledge with what Jesus was teaching. After all, you cant jhave Jesus disagreeing with the Holy Spirit can you? So, yes she is the most blessed among women. And Jesus' teaching does not discount that.

If you still think that Jesus doesnt think she is, please explain.

 

[Standing Up]

I would say be careful not to dismiss other scriptures when you find one that seems to prove your point. We must take all of them together as a whole to get a full meaning of what is being implied.

Jesus truly is teaching here that the most blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it. This is what will define a person as blessed, and might I also say, they will be exalted for it.

However, you cant make this out to mean that Mary isnt the most blessed based on this scripture! Why? Because Mary is one of the people who heard the word of God and kept it. If Elizabeth, speaking by the Holy Spirit said that Mary is most blessed among all women, then you cannot disregard that. You must take that to be true, and then couple that knowledge with what Jesus was teaching. After all, you cant jhave Jesus disagreeing with the Holy Spirit can you? So, yes she is the most blessed among women. And Jesus' teaching does not discount that.

If you still think that Jesus doesnt think she is, please explain.

It's a tough thing to hold two contradictory thoughts at the same time. IOW, that is what Jesus said. Rather, blessed are those who hear ...

He did it also when His brothers and mother were standing outside. Who are His brothers and sisters and mother? Those who do the will of God.

I understand the absolute necessity of the virgin birth and even say Mary had more children, thus cementing the idea that Christ had flesh and birth like you and me. His birth would not have happened without her consent. Everyone will always know this and respect it. BUT, He does say what He does say.

 

[CatholicFlame]

It's a tough thing to hold two contradictory thoughts at the same time. IOW, that is what Jesus said. Rather, blessed are those who hear ...

He did it also when His brothers and mother were standing outside. Who are His brothers and sisters and mother? Those who do the will of God.

I understand the absolute necessity of the virgin birth and even say Mary had more children, thus cementing the idea that Christ had flesh and birth like you and me. His birth would not have happened without her consent. Everyone will always know this and respect it. BUT, He does say what He does say.

He does say the words implying that "its not because of any blood ties to Jesus that make any person blessed, rather the truly blessed person is the one who hear the word of God and keeps it." im paraphrasing here. I believe that is core element in his teaching in this verse. You cannot, however deduce from this scripture that Mary is not blessed. Why? because of the simple fact that the holy Spirit assures us that she is most blessed among women. I know its not easy at first, especially if you are so used to thinking God does not consider her most blessed. I personally cannot hold one without the other, because that is the way I read the bible.

Pray for God to help you understand them both to be true.

 

[narnia59]

Well, I guess I am not sure that I getting your point either.
Solomon had a mother, and so did Jesus, so that is a typology?!!

If it was to compare Mary with Bathsheeba, and how important she was in comparison to the thousand wives who weren't his mother, then character seemed a little relevant.

It was pretty much over for David, after Bathsheeba. It is a rather grim story, pretty much the beginning of the end for the Davidic dynasty as a whole even.

My point is that there is the role of the queen mother established by the Jewish kings, which are supposed to be a foreshadowing of the kingdom of Christ. The role of queen mother goes past Bathsheba and Solomon -- it is an official role that accompanies the king.

The Davidic dynasty was destined to end -- it was only a shadow of the reality of Christ's kingdom.

 

[narnia59]

Well I love the Lord. I know Mary is my sister in the Lord. I never knew her to show the Love of the Lord.

Are you saying that Mary never showed the love of the Lord?

Do you believe that Mary is still the mother of Jesus, or did at some point she cease to be his mother? If she is no longer the mother of Jesus, when did she cease to be his mother?

 

[Godel]

Matthew 12:46-50 makes it pretty clear that Jesus saw His mother having no particularly higher status than anyone who followed God.

Also interesting to note that whenever Jesus directly addressed Mary in Scripture, He calls her "woman", didn't call her His "mother".

 

[jataylo]

Unfortunately I was unable to upload my own picture. It consisted of a man kneeling before a tombstone with a carving of his wife on it. I'm sure no one would consider that "You will NOT make onto yourselves graven images of anything in heaven." It amazes me how suddenly when it isn't Catholic the image of someone kneeling isn't the focus but the intention of the person. If you kneel in your church is it automatically assumed your worshiping the pastor standing at the front?--of course not. If a man kneels before the king of England in a knighting ceremony, is he worshiping the king of England?--Of course not. There is nothing wrong with the images posted. The problem is in the person forcing his interpretation on what the intention of those people are. They humbling kneeling in prayer asking for Mary's intercession. Do they think Mary will perform great works for them? No, they ask Mary to ask Jesus to help them. As the prayers of a righteous person availth much. Everything is focused toward Jesus and comes from Jesus--that is Catholic Teaching.


Rev 22:8-9 the mistake John is making it says right in the text, which is he fell down to worship the angel. His intention is made clear.


Know let us talk about Ex 20:4-5 which was quoted. It says "You shall not carve images for yourselves......you shall not bow down to them and worship them." (Once again Catholics don't worship Mary, we don't ask her to forgive our sins, we don't call her our Creator, or put her above the Trinity at all..period.) Now idolatry is a sin and condemned by the Catholic Church. But to say that all images are evil leads to problems in interpreting the Bible, as the Bible shows that images can be used for religious purposes.


For instance, just after the condemnation in Ex 20, in Ex 25 God tells the Israelites to build His santuary and it is to have a two golden cherubim, hand made(vs 18-20). Did God tell them to sin right after he told them not to do this? We see it done again in the David's plan for the temple which the Bible says was by the hand of the writing of the Lord (1Chr 28:18-19). In Ez 41:17-18 we see it a third time, and 2Chr 3:7-14, a fourth time.


Would you consider a bronze serpant (Num 21:8-9) also a violation of that same law? How about the "carved" images of animals and plants in King Solomons temple 1Kg 6:29-35? What is the visual image of 1Kg 8:6-66?

The Church has a long history of images used to teach the faith, in artwork, statues, ect. Mainly due to the fact that most of the world can't read, even today a third of the world is illiterate we just forget it because of the blessings we have in this country.


Teachings of the Catholic Church:

"[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying, ‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols." (The Second Council of Nicaea, 787AD)

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).