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What is your view of Christmas...

Michaelismyname

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I'm A Born again Christian - obviously browsing around lol.
but I Do love Israel so very deeply(albeit more then a little ignorant of present customs) .I cant begin to explain why -i just know soon we are All to be united as one In Messiah Y'shua.

In reply to the question- generally speaking ,while we do celebrate it in part we change much . because i do believe there is much "wrong" with it .
for one - i have no time for the fat guy in the red suit which was promoted by the cocacola company nor any of the fables that surround it .

we change it and celebrate it in this manner -

we give gifts -to remember that God GAVE his only unique son

we put up a tree - to remind us that the Messiah was hung upon a tree (cross) for us all

we put stars on it (decorations) to remind us of the story of the night of his birth (we know its not the correct date but its a date chosen to celebrate)
and how the star lead the wiseman to the Lord .
All these things can be used as conversational triggers to encourage sharing the Gospel .

I dont like and try not to use the term "Christmas" a mass held at midnight holds far to much pagen overtones for me and there i will stop before I do a soap box rave n the whole mass topic .
....
In summary - there are many things "wrong" with the modern pagan monetary
motivated celebration on DEC 25 . But the world took things to do with my Lord and used them to make profit - I have no problem with taking those things back and using them to glorify my Lord

------------
He returns not only soon- He is on his way !- maranatha מרנא תא
 
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xDenax

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Are ya tryin' to stir the pot Dena? We who have answered the question - have answered the question. Until our OP poster responds by asking us why, then we feel we've given the answer we want to give. Sheesh!

Yeah, saying I don't understand your answers and pointing out the OP may not either since she's brand new is "stirring the pot". :doh:
 
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ChavaK

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I'm A Born again Christian - obviously browsing around lol.
Hi Michael, welcome to the fourm!
but I Do love Israel so very deeply
:thumbsup:

we change it and celebrate it in this manner -

we give gifts -to remember that God GAVE his only unique son

we put up a tree - to remind us that the Messiah was hung upon a tree (cross) for us all

we put stars on it (decorations) to remind us of the story of the night of his birth (we know its not the correct date but its a date chosen to celebrate)
and how the star lead the wiseman to the Lord .
I like how you take a holiday that is very important to many, and make
new connections to it. Despite what many think, I don't think the celebration of it nor the rituals involved in it are necessarily pagan based.
How you look at it makes much sense.
 
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Gavriella

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Thank you guys for your responses. I have always had an interest in the Messianic. I have always celebrated Christmas and at times I do feel somewhat guilty at celebrating. I do not want to go to hell for celebrating it and at the same time I do not want to make myself miserable by being religious. I have already been there and I felt like everytime I turned around I was going to hell. I don't wanna live like that anymore. Why do you choose to NOT celebrate? Thanks guys, you are all so kind. :wave: Oh I was raised Apostolic :)
 
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xDenax

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I really don't think you'll go to hell for celebrating Christmas and I'm certain nobody else here thinks that either.

I don't celebrate Christmas in my home because I'm Jewish, it's not my holiday and has nothing to do with me.
 
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Gavriella

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I wanted to add this too. I have a hard time putting Jesus with Christmas. I have always thought of the excitement going on at that particular time. Now that I know about the pagan ties to Christmas, I really have a hard time sticking Jesus in the middle of it all. Can it be celebrated as just a tradition without Jesus? I don't mean that to sound bad. I would like to celebrate Him every day not just once a year. I am with some of you on the commercialized Christmas. So many sad families, debt up to their ears, Santa, and the list goes on and on. Is there a way to really put Him in it?
 
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Lulav

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That is certainly what it has become. I do not agree with the second part of what you have written, as it is written.

For billions of people Christmas marks the birth of Yeshua - yes at the wrong time and in the wrong way but...that is what it marks and that birth was a reality and is recorded in Scripture.

I disagree, what Visionary said is true, what we see in our country and around the world by those who celebrate it has nothing to do with what is found in scripture.

Firstly, the only mention of celebrations of birthdays in the bible are of two pagan kings, The Pharaoh of Egypt and Herod the pagan Edomite pretend Jew. Both testaments are represented by these two. Both stories end with someones unjust death. In the former, the baker was hung from a tree, and the latter, involved the cousin of Yeshua, John, was decapitated.


I agree that there is no command in Scripture to celebrate Yeshua's birth at any time of the year, but neither is there a command to light candles at Shabbat... but I bet you do! And if you quote the Oral Law to support lighting candles, then people must be able to quote the Christian Oral Law to support the fact of celebrating his birth and death.
A straw man. What does Shabbat have to do with birthdays? nothing. The lighting of candles is a tradition, yes, but it is to make one aware that Shabbat is approaching and that no fire should be lit after it starts. Two candles are lit for the evening meal, just as two loaves of challah are on the table. To represent Shabbat commandments, to remember and to observe or keep.

What exactly is the 'Christian Oral Law'?

The birth of Yeshua was in any case, for the Jews, when ever it was (probably at Tabernacles as already said) - everything G_d does is first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. The Gentile celebration, as it now stands, should not start until January with the Feast of Epiphany when the men came with their presents (when Yeshua was about 2yrs old) and he received them as representatives of the nations.
According to one person it is.

As far as the Gentile celebration, that is also not biblically supported. There is no way of knowing what time of year it was when they visited without much surmising following the astrological data at that time, and no one can agree on that. Secondly this is another misinterpretation of the Gentile church.

At this time, as now also, there were Jews still scattered around the world. Testimony to this can be found in Acts2, which is also read by the Church to mean the gentiles, but it was not. These were Jews from the Diaspora that were in Jerusalem for Shavuot, they were not goyim.

The same with the 'wise men'. They most likely came from Babylon. This is where we were taken when Nebuchadnezzar trashed the first temple. Not all returned, as can be seen by the books of Esther and some of the prophets of that time. These are the ones who had the Torah, had the books of the prophets speaking of a Messiah that would come and save Israel from her enemies. They, and only they, were the ones awaiting this Savior. Not any gentiles. They were not promised a Messiah, why would they be waiting for one? It makes no sense. Just another tentacle of replacement theology. :sigh:

It is also unbiblically sound to say that 'he', meaning Yeshua, received them (at two years old????) as representatives of the Gentiles. It doesn't say there were three of them, just three different gifts, however, to represent the nations would be to look at the bible to see what that number would be, and it's a far cry from three or a handfull, which it couldn't have been too many, else Herod would have had no trouble finding them when they ditched him. Seventy, is the number of the recognized nations in the Bible.

Best way to solve the problem is for the Jews to take back the birth of Yeshua as their own and to celebrate it at Tabernacles instead of trashing what others do because they don't.

I don't know what more to say, Except that some of us 'Jews' have, even ones that don't believe he was the Messiah, but even if all did, would that really stop Gentiles from turning his birth into a circus or what ever they wanted to?
 
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Lulav

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I'm surprised you guys are answering with "we don't celebrate it in our home" when that was not the question.
Dena, I think we can answer questions posed to us without any coaching.

Well..okay? I don't watch footbal but do I think it's immoral? No. To say you don't do something doesn't give me a clear indication of whether you think it's wrong or right. It may not give the OP a clear picture either. My guess would be she's asking because she is not familiar with Messianic Judaism and is trying to get a feel for what you guys believe.
Since you agree she came to find out what Messianics believe, why are you responding any way?

Are ya tryin' to stir the pot Dena? We who have answered the question - have answered the question. Until our OP poster responds by asking us why, then we feel we've given the answer we want to give. Sheesh!
:thumbsup:

Yeah, saying I don't understand your answers and pointing out the OP may not either since she's brand new is "stirring the pot". :doh:
Maybe, maybe not. But this does remain the Messianic forum and that being the case we can answer however we please and we don't need any lessons or scolding on how to do so.
 
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yedida

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Thank you guys for your responses. I have always had an interest in the Messianic. I have always celebrated Christmas and at times I do feel somewhat guilty at celebrating. I do not want to go to hell for celebrating it and at the same time I do not want to make myself miserable by being religious. I have already been there and I felt like everytime I turned around I was going to hell. I don't wanna live like that anymore. Why do you choose to NOT celebrate? Thanks guys, you are all so kind. :wave: Oh I was raised Apostolic :)

You won't go to hell for celebrating christmas, baby. God knows your heart. But if YOU are feeling not right about it, then it's time to stop. Some Messianics are very strict about observance, but most of us are very laid back because we all understand that for many of us (non-Jews) it's a whole new life-style and it's all baby-steps.
Messianics may appear "religious" or "legalistic" to someone who doesn't understand, but we and Orthodox Jews look at the "do's and don't's" as "good deeds" done for the Lord and we receive joy in the opportunity to "perform a mitzvah." Obeying God's commands, even the littlest ones, is a joy and having joy is always a good benefit. Yes?

Why do I choose NOT to celebrate christmas? Because of the commercialism in it. There is no command to do so, so it is optional (just as there is no command not to celebrate). For myself, personally, another reason is that I do not consider myself a christian, I am a follower of 1st century sect of Judaism, called, back then, The Way, today it's called Messianic Judaism. When it comes right down to it, about the only thing I have in common with christianity is I believe that the man known to christians as Jesus Christ is the same man known to the people of Israel in the early 1st century as Yeshua ben Yosef is God's promised Redeemer; that's where our commonality ends. So, for me, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to celebrate christian holidays.
I don't believe that people who do celebrate them, for the right reasons with pure hearts, are wrong and going to hell; certainly not. But for me to celebrate them it would be a wrong thing to do, so I don't. It's just that simple. It's not a matter of going to hell or not going to hell. So shoo that fear right out of you! Celebrate christmas and easter with a good, clean, pure heart or don't - God knows where your heart is and what your intentions are. Don't let the world judge you.
 
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Lulav

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I wanted to add this too. I have a hard time putting Jesus with Christmas. I have always thought of the excitement going on at that particular time. Now that I know about the pagan ties to Christmas, I really have a hard time sticking Jesus in the middle of it all. Can it be celebrated as just a tradition without Jesus? I don't mean that to sound bad. I would like to celebrate Him every day not just once a year. I am with some of you on the commercialized Christmas. So many sad families, debt up to their ears, Santa, and the list goes on and on. Is there a way to really put Him in it?
Good to see you back here. Yes, it has become an industry. There are financial words coined in relationship to it. I'm sure, if you are an American, have heard of Black Friday? That is the day after Thanksgiving (that was fashioned after Sukkot when Yeshua might have been born) when all the stores start the holiday season with all their christmas sales because they know many people have off work that day. It is called Black Friday, because it usually is the day when the stores books go from being in the 'red' to black and they see their profit for the year.

I would not want to associate the Messiah with this. As it says in the Torah, "do not inquire concerning their gods, saying, "How did these nations worship their gods? I also want to do the same."

All the things involved in 'Christmas' come from the nations.
 
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yedida

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Thank you guys for your responses. I have always had an interest in the Messianic. I have always celebrated Christmas and at times I do feel somewhat guilty at celebrating. I do not want to go to hell for celebrating it and at the same time I do not want to make myself miserable by being religious. I have already been there and I felt like everytime I turned around I was going to hell. I don't wanna live like that anymore. Why do you choose to NOT celebrate? Thanks guys, you are all so kind. :wave: Oh I was raised Apostolic :)

I was wondering what the basic tenets of Apostolicism (?) are? Normally you could not come in here telling us that (it would be considered "teaching,"), but since I asked, I believe that no one here would object to your answering me. I know of the denom, but have no idea what it means to have been raised as such - what makes it different from Baptist or Methodist, etc.?
 
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visionary

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I was wondering what the basic tenets of Apostolicism (?) are? Normally you could not come in here telling us that (it would be considered "teaching,"), but since I asked, I believe that no one here would object to your answering me. I know of the denom, but have no idea what it means to have been raised as such - what makes it different from Baptist or Methodist, etc.?
To make it safer, should this be in bridge builder?
 
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yedida

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It might even be better as a PM. I'm sure there would be some to yea or nay the tenets and that would put the poster in a bad spot. I'm sure you know what I'm referring to, not this forum's regulars....I wasn't thinking when I posed the question. I think the same thing would happen in Bridge Builders.
 
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Gxg (G²)

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Do you feel it is wrong? Just curious no bashing intended. :)
Personally, I don't have any issue with it so long as the perspective is on Christ and one doesn't get caught up in aspects of it that are not supported within the scriptures. And I enjoy fellowshipping with other believers, be it Jew or Gentile, who take the time to use the Holiday as a means of rememebering what Yeshua is about.

For some Jews, celebrating Christmas is something that should never be done because it was not one of the Biblically ordained holidays within the Torah (even though Purim and Chanakuh were also not ordained in the Torah as Festivals and yet are still celebrated)....whereas others celebrate Christmas alongside the Festivals because the Holiday in/of itself was not something that is sin so long as the focus is upon celebrating Christ being brought into the world---while simultaneously avoiding many of the other trappings that are secular in nature (i.e. focusing on Santa Clause/Elves, gifts for the sake of getting gifts, etc) and take the focus off of the Messiah.

Many have a focus that the Holidays are to be a time where gift giving should be done in light of what Christ has done for us in giving Himself--the ULTIMATE gift---for all of mankind.....and I have much respect for those using the holidays to give gifts/resources to the less fortunate or use it as a time to correct others on the myth of Santa Clause by examining the ways that figure was wrongly created by making a caricature of St.Nicolas (a wonderful man of God who loved the Messiah and gave greatly of his wealth to help people stuck in human trafficking) More discussed here..and there was actually another excellent discussion on the subject of how Jewish believers feel on the issue of Christmas, as seen in the thread Christmas and the Jew (more shared here ).

Generally speaking, Messianic Jews do not celebrate Christmas. And there is no place in the Scriptures that commands us to celebrate the Birth of the Messiah. We're to do all that we come to in honor of Him/His work ( 1 Corinthians 10:31, Colossians 3:16-18 /Colossians 3, 2 Timothy 2:8/2 Timothy 2:7-9 )---remembering His death and where He came from (all apart of the work of the Incarnation). That said, apparently, none of the early believers, Jewish or Gentile, celebrated these Christmas, as there is no mention of it in the Brit Hadasha (New Covenant). That does not mean that Messianic Jews are universally against Christmas (Rom. 14). During the Christmas season, many synagouges do not have Christmas trees, give gifts or have Christmas parties. At the same time, others may rejoice with people throughout the world on celebrating the fact that a Savior was born.

To many, the reality is that everyday has things done on it by unbelievers that the Lord has never ordained of, with even the very days of the week (i.e. Thursday, Friday, Wensday, etc) being named after pagan gods/goddesses from antiquity......and yet believers don't chose to avoid celebrating who the Lord is on those days or choose to go hiding because the world wants to use days for corruption.

Seeing how both Jews and Gentiles were both involved in the celebration of the Messiah's birth---from the shepherds to the Wisemen/Magi (noted by some to be from either Persia, Southern Arabia or the Parthian Empire, Jews and Gentiles both involved) to the hometown that Joseph/Mary birthed Christ into---it's one of the few things I'm glad shows the unity which Christ happened to bring coming into the world. For His birth was for both Jew and Gentile.....and although there's nothing in scripture commanding that it be celebrated on a certain day, there's nothing wrong with celebrating it in remembrance or even using the times where it is more of a focus to speak of Him.

If interested, there was very in-depth discussion happening elsewhere with one of the Messianic Forums I visit where there was some very insighful conversation happening on the subject of the holidays (as seen here, here , here here , here , here and here). I'm thankful to be in close relationship with other Messianic Jews who are passionate about celebrating the Birth of the Messiah around the Holidays and yet choosing not to think that one has to celebrate Christmas the way many believers chose to do. For those Jewish believers, although they're not against believers celebrating Christmas to the glory of Messiah, Chanakuh is what takes precedence over Christmas/surrounding it with the Jewish perspective of God's temple being redicated and Christ being the Light of God (as He noted around the same time the Holiday took place in John 10 when questioned). I love the fact that the Festival of Lights occurs in the winter just as Christmas does---and it's cool being able to celebrate one aspect of Biblical history when the Lord preserved His people/kept the light going while also being able to celebrate another aspect which is His birth--the Light of the World coming forth (John 1:8-10 , JJohn 3:18-20 , John 8:11-13 , John 9:4-6, John 12:45-47 , etc) and becoming incarnated as a man to redeem mankind....and with the latter holiday, the fact that Christ wasn't technically born during December doesn't change the fact that the concept of what He did in being born is worth celebrating :)

Back when Sukkot was occurring, one of the members of my Messianic fellowship sent out an interesting article on possible considerations of when Christ was born (seen here)--and it made sense that He would come into the world during the Feast of Tabernacles, as He literally tabernacled with us. In many ways, the Festivals are road-maps to the work of the Messiah....and thus, anyone dogmatically saying that CHrist had to be born in December needs to go back/consider doing some more research on the facts. But again, even if Christ was not technically born in December, the reality is that His birth is what's celebrated....and that's something I'm always glad to join in and be apart of.

Messianic Derek Leman had some excellent studies/articles on the subject, as seen in the following:

Additionally,there were some good articles/reviews I remember coming across with my Messianic brothers/sisters over at "The Rosh Pina Project"--as seen here:


Additionally, Messianic Jewish Apologist, Dr.Michael Brown, also had some excellent thoughts on the subject--as seen here. And in addition to that, there was some excellent discussion from "Biblical Archeology" on why people came to feel Christ was born around the time of December....as seen in How December 25 Became Christmas - Biblical Archeology Review. There are a lot of times when it seems many take things to extremes that are not warranted on the Holidays. And as another Jewish believer well noted, IMHO:
I have yet to meet a Christian that "defends Christmas" based on scripture or dogma. It's just a holiday. It's a chance to celebrate something important in history- to Christians a most important event. It's just a day set aside for that. I don't think any serious scholar thinks Dec 25th is Jesus' birthday (nor is sukkot seriously considered for that matter, though it preaches well to this crowd).

As for the paranoia and fear ascribed to the date Dec 25th or to having a tree with decorations etc- I wonder what people are afraid of. Demons in the tinsel? Almost every day of the year could be attached to some kind of pre-Christian celebration in some part of the planet. God redeems sin and sinners, so dates on the calendar is not too big a task for him, and it is up to us to make those times holy- "redeem the times". What's more, if you are that afraid of paganism- what on earth do you think of some of the Laws and holidays in the Torah? Piles of it is pre-dated by pagan Egypt and Canaan.

Further, all this talk of "The Lord's Feasts/festivals/times" is a bit of psycho-babble to me. They are holidays for ISREAL. God doesn't need days off to remember things, but He gave them to the Jewish people so we could remember what He did for us. They were not given as a law for Gentiles to follow. They come from the Lord, but they belong to the Jewish people. Can we please own them?

Why are there so many self-hating Gentiles?
 
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Gxg (G²)

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The obscene consumerism and greed is wrong but other than that, no, I don't think it's immoral or unethical.
Right there with ya...as I think the consumerism that often happens is what is the most corrupt aspect about the Holiday season. However, it's odd to me that such happens throughout the year on every day of the week and many only notice it during the end of the year rather than seeing it 24/7.
 
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Do you feel it is wrong? Just curious no bashing intended. :)

Christmas is what you make it. I love it, but only because it's a good time to get giving and helping out in the community. I'm not big on religious holidays as a rule. Even the Jewish ones don't get me very excited anymore.
 
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after reading some of the comments on this particular posting ,I think .. I would like to learn more about the feast of tabernacles . I'm really not sure why Christians don't observe it in some degree at least.

Perhaps it is because so many so called christian religious festivals over the millennia have been imposed on us by the RCC - ok im always beating this drum but that lot has so much to answer for i think the only acceptable reply would be for Rome (the Vatican)to be buried in fire .... note to self :get off that soap box
 
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after reading some of the comments on this particular posting ,I think .. I would like to learn more about the feast of tabernacles . I'm really not sure why Christians don't observe it in some degree at least.

Perhaps it is because so many so called christian religious festivals over the millennia have been imposed on us by the RCC - ok im always beating this drum but that lot has so much to answer for i think the only acceptable reply would be for Rome (the Vatican)to be buried in fire .... note to self :get off that soap box

Hi there Michael, it would seriously derail this thread to now deal with Tabernacles - why not start a new thread for that discussion
 
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