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Atheism (2)

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Dave Ellis

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Well, I mean... if your God can kill people by the millions, order genocides, sanction slavery and you get to write that off as the actions of a perfectly just, loving God.... then we can also call this an action of love.

I mean, we don't want to set a double standard, right? Granted, the band's message of love pales in comparison to the loving actions that God carried out... but, at least they're putting an effort in.
 
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SeraphimsCherub

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The consequences of a god that loves atheists and that hates theists with an unending hatred don't alarm you?

I'm alarmed by living in way that isn't true to my best knowledge and judgment of reality. I'm alarmed by living in a cowering and spineless way that is devoid of intellectual or moral integrity.



No, giving in to Pascal's Wager is like playing Russian Roulette with your integrity, where every chamber has a bullet.


eudaimonia,

Mark
i never said that GOD does not LOVE atheist's. Of coarse HE LOVES them. Everyone who now believes in GOD was an atheist in a broad sense whether they knew it or not before they believed in GOD.
 
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Dave Ellis

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i never said that GOD does not LOVE atheist's. Of coarse HE LOVES them. Everyone who now believes in GOD was an atheist in a broad sense whether they knew it or not before they believed in GOD.


I'm glad you take that view... it's far more enlightened than some other people that follow your religion.

But still, why are you bringing up Pascals Wager then?
 
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SeraphimsCherub

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I'm glad you take that view... it's far more enlightened than some other people that follow your religion.

But still, why are you bringing up Pascals Wager then?
Well...i didn't know that was his wager. I was just fishing for something off the top of my head. Should of never used it. Take most of what i say with a grain of salt. Because i'm a very right brain random ADD freak of a good nature. I think right to left simultaneously as my "beautiful" mind{like the dude in the movie} is trying to think from left to right.:)
 
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createdtoworship

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Well, I mean... if your God can kill people by the millions, order genocides, sanction slavery and you get to write that off as the actions of a perfectly just, loving God.... then we can also call this an action of love.

I mean, we don't want to set a double standard, right? Granted, the band's message of love pales in comparison to the loving actions that God carried out... but, at least they're putting an effort in.

so now you are on par with God? Nice.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Well...i didn't know that was his wager. I was just fishing for something off the top of my head. Should of never used it. Take most of what i say with a grain of salt. Because i'm a very right brain random ADD freak of a good nature. I think right to left simultaneously as my "beautiful" mind{like the dude in the movie} is trying to think from left to right.:)


Hehe, no problems :)

Just for your information then, Pascal's Wager is a argument that was put forward by French Mathematician Blaise Pascal back in the 1600's.

Basically he argues:

If God is real:
A belief in God will guarantee you eternal salvation
Disbelief in God will guarantee you eternal torture

If God is not real:
A belief in God is not going to hurt you
Disbelief in God is not going to hurt you.

Therefore he argues it's safest to profess belief in God, as you can't lose... Whereas disbelief has potential consequences.

This argument is actually a very widely used argument by Christians, and one that many use as a reason to keep believing.

--------

The problem is that many people can't see the logical fallacies and contradictions inherent in the wager.

For example:
1) If the Islamic idea of God is real, you will be punished more than a non-believer for worshipping a competing God rather than just straight disbelief. There are thousands of other Gods to choose from, the odds that your God is the actual correct one is an extreme longshot at best. Believing in a false God could be just as, if not more disastrous for you.

2) If God is not real and you choose to believe him, there are some major consequences. For example: The religious influences on society are a complete waste of time and you spend your entire life devoting many hours to worshipping a lie.

3) You're supporting a false system that's actively trying to obstruct science and therefore the progress of many advances. This can be anything from technology to medicine.

4) The religious and holy wars will have far more people backing their causes, resulting in who knows how many senseless deaths.

Furthermore, he makes a logical error in stating the existence or non-existence of God is a 50/50 proposal. Given the fact we have no evidence to show God exists, the odds are extremely unlikely that he actually does exist..... Therefore his premise is based on faulty odds.

On top of that, professing belief is not actually believing. Most Christians say you have to actually accept Jesus to be saved. If you say you accept him and you don't actually accept him... You're not only guilty of not accepting Jesus as Lord, but you have also broken the "Thou shalt not bear false witness" commandment, getting yourself in even more trouble.

Basically, belief is not a choice... You can claim to believe something, But whether or not you actually believe it is outside of your control.


There's more than that wrong with the wager, but I'm sure you get the idea that it's just simply a bad argument.
 
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Dave Ellis

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so now you are on par with God? Nice.


I hope you do realize I'm just taking a sarcastic shot at the "Well, you're just interpreting the bible wrong / you need to open your heart" argument.

That being said, although it was done in sarcasm, it's form is just as valid as the actual argument.
 
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KCfromNC

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You seem to be equating followers of Jesus with those who designate themselves as "Christians". The two are not synonomous.

Until we're able to read minds, there's not much else to go on.

A follower of Jesus Christ is going to live as He lived while in the world.

Did Jesus plagiarize the work of other authors as you have in your recent thread discussing atheism?
 
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dlamberth

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so now you are on par with God? Nice.
Mostly in what we see in the Old Testament, we don't have to be on par with God to note the disconnect away from the image of a Loving, Forgiving and Compassionate Being we are told the God of the Bible is said to be.


.
 
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Eudaimonist

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i never said that GOD does not LOVE atheist's.

I know that.

But to me a god that loves atheists and hates believers is just as "possible" as a god that loves his believers and hates atheists, or a god that loves everyone and yet makes it easy for honest atheists to go to hell.

I don't believe that your God exists. Please let that sink in. That should explain why I'm not concerned about the consequences of disbelief in your God.

Everyone who now believes in GOD was an atheist in a broad sense whether they knew it or not before they believed in GOD.

I hope that their change of faith status had nothing to do with Pascal's Wager.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Dave Ellis

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Well i'm done here. I can't convince you that there is a GOD,and your never going to be able to convince me that there isn't. So staying here isn't really a healthy envirerment for my faith to thrive. Faith breeds faith. Faith,and disbelief,is like pouring water on fire. GOD bless you all though.


That's a shame.... but a demonstration of what we're trying to argue against. Closing your eyes and ears for the sake of "faith".

Faith is not a virtue, and it's not something to be protected. Fact is what matters most.
 
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SeraphimsCherub

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That's a shame.... but a demonstration of what we're trying to argue against. Closing your eyes and ears for the sake of "faith".

Faith is not a virtue, and it's not something to be protected. Fact is what matters most.
Of coarse it's{FAITH} not for you because you don't have any.:doh:
But you will know soon enough that there is a GOD,and that far sooner than you can think. As end times prophesy will begin to unfold at an alarming rate by the end of this month,or very shortly after. Especially during the time of the London Olympics. Everyone's world shall be shaken. I pray that when these things come to pass. That JESUS CHRIST will count you worthy,and grant to you the GIFT of FAITH. So that you will BY HIS POWER be able to CALL UPON HIS NAME~&~BELIEVE UPON HIM as your personal SAVIOUR. So That you may be able to escape the wrath of GOD in HIS RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT which is getting ready to fall upon the sins of this world such as never before. IN CHRIST JESUS NAME I PRAY THIS AMEN....
Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
 
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createdtoworship

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Well, I mean... if your God can kill people by the millions, order genocides, sanction slavery and you get to write that off as the actions of a perfectly just, loving God.... then we can also call this an action of love.

I mean, we don't want to set a double standard, right? Granted, the band's message of love pales in comparison to the loving actions that God carried out... but, at least they're putting an effort in.

So it's okay to do the same things that God does?

Burn everything with fire.....

like churches....

I dont' think so.
 
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createdtoworship

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Mostly in what we see in the Old Testament, we don't have to be on par with God to note the disconnect away from the image of a Loving, Forgiving and Compassionate Being we are told the God of the Bible is said to be.

.

how is it that you can be mad at God for being evil,

if He doesnt' exist?
 
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Davian

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But you will know soon enough that there is a GOD,and that far sooner than you can think. As end times prophesy will begin to unfold at an alarming rate by the end of this month,or very shortly after. Especially during the time of the London Olympics. Everyone's world shall be shaken.
As our fortune teller, can you give us a more precise date for any of this?
 
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