An Open Question

[bling]

By "we" I mean, the human race as a whole. I'm not going to sum up the knowledge of an individual and use examples based on his understanding. We understand how to create and utilize electrical energy, in much the same way we utilize chemical energy.

I am sorry again but I do not know any human that can “create” electrical energy. It seems we can mechanically transfer electricity around. We do not create “Chemical energy” either. It all goes back to: “ the more we know the more we realize we do not know”.

Everything we learn has reason for it, nothing supernatural is input into the equation. For example, we know that, should we move something, its velocity is determined by the force pushing it countered by the degree of force working against it (air resistance, friction, gravity etc.) Nothing within this kind of knowledge involves any mysterious "supernatural entity". Or maybe I am wrong, put forward a piece of knowledge that we understand through a "supernatural" meaning. Something we do not understand yet does not count, as it is not knowledge. Supernatural, is something that does not obey the known laws of physics and nature, and something that is judged to be immaterial. Hmm, back the the problem of substance dualism that I addressed about 8 times during the thread so far. No one has offered a satisfactory comeback to it yet, perhaps you will have more luck?

In physics “If it happened it is natural”, so anything that has happened is natural. Also, we really do not have “laws” since all we do have is continuous repeated actions “so far” that we know about in our little corner of the universe. If there is truly a God, then He could have a “Law”. Science does not deal with the “super natural” so that is never their answer.

 

[Elioenai26]

Your attempt to dodge your burden of proof.



Define conscience.

The inner voice that accuses you of or excuses your actions; as to regards to whether they are right or wrong.

 

[Gadarene]

The inner voice that accuses you of or excuses your actions; as to regards to whether they are right or wrong.

In that case, yes.

 

[Quantum Obscurity]

I am sorry again but I do not know any human that can “create” electrical energy. It seems we can mechanically transfer electricity around. We do not create “Chemical energy” either. It all goes back to: “ the more we know the more we realize we do not know”.

Did i mention the creation of energy? No. I'm not stupid. Energy is literally un-creatable. I'm referring to the fact that we know things about it. Why ressurect things and twist them? It's irrelavent to the current point.

 

[Quantum Obscurity]

In physics “If it happened it is natural”, so anything that has happened is natural. Also, we really do not have “laws” since all we do have is continuous repeated actions “so far” that we know about in our little corner of the universe. If there is truly a God, then He could have a “Law”. Science does not deal with the “super natural” so that is never their answer.

And actually. Higgs Bosun. Don't you keep track of current events? We have literally ensured that laws of physics DO exist. There is no room for argument. Sorry.

 

[Tomas de Torquemada]

I'm a 17 year old, I'm a philosophy student, and I am an atheist.
I was raised in a christian family, but lost my faith around the age of 16. I am simply seeking A) An interesting debate, I love arguments. B) Any attempts to reconvert me, I'm not totally closed minded, in fact I remain entirely accepting of all other major religions, provided they tolerate my decision not to believe.

To make one final point, I am not here with aims to "troll" as it seems many other atheists are doing. All this does is lower opinions of atheists, and helps no one. I am here for proper arguement. For starters:
What makes you believe God exists?

Footnote: None of this is intended to be offensive, it is simply a question.

You really should reconsider your college plans. Student debt does not go away with bankruptcy, and a philosophy degree will not increase your future earnings. A decade ago, I think youthful optimism about a never-ending expanding economy was forgivable; after four years of recession and high youth unemployment, you should know the score. Your degree will be worth 5k tops, and you'll spend 40k+ to get it, not even counting lost time 4-5 years wandering in extended childhood. You can learn the exact same material and bypass the (worthless) pedigree with a library card.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you should hear it, early and often, that you are making a mistake you will regret for a long time.

 

[Tomas de Torquemada]

Oh, as for the bolded question: The existence of God is not a derived position on my part, but a fundamental one. It is a springboard to derive other points about existence; other points about existence do not justify it.

Its like how you are certain you exist, or that your sensory data is not illusionary. Those are fundamental positions, not derived ones.

 

[Quantum Obscurity]

You really should reconsider your college plans. Student debt does not go away with bankruptcy, and a philosophy degree will not increase your future earnings. A decade ago, I think youthful optimism about a never-ending expanding economy was forgivable; after four years of recession and high youth unemployment, you should know the score. Your degree will be worth 5k tops, and you'll spend 40k+ to get it, not even counting lost time 4-5 years wandering in extended childhood. You can learn the exact same material and bypass the (worthless) pedigree with a library card.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but you should hear it, early and often, that you are making a mistake you will regret for a long time.

Don't leap to conclusions. I'm 17 and therefore still at college. It is 1 of my 4 A Levels. I'm going into computer science @ university, one of the widest fields in existence.

 

[Quantum Obscurity]

Oh, as for the bolded question: The existence of God is not a derived position on my part, but a fundamental one. It is a springboard to derive other points about existence; other points about existence do not justify it.

Its like how you are certain you exist, or that your sensory data is not illusionary. Those are fundamental positions, not derived ones.

Empiricism teaches that one cannot even be certain of anything actually, meaning existence is a derived conclusion, not a fundamental one. I'm not declaring myself a solipsist, I BELIEVE that I exist, but one can never be absolutely certain of the existence of nonexistence of anything.

 

[Tomas de Torquemada]

I see. So you just assume empiricism is correct then?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Empiricism teaches that one cannot even be certain of anything actually, meaning existence is a derived conclusion, not a fundamental one. I'm not declaring myself a solipsist, I BELIEVE that I exist, but one can never be absolutely certain of the existence of nonexistence of anything.

You can at least say that something exists rather than nothing. Well... I can say that. You might be a figment of my imagination.

 

[Quantum Obscurity]

I see. So you just assume empiricism is correct then?

Seeing as I follow empiricism, Yes. So you just assume catholicism is correct then?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I see. So you just assume empiricism is correct then?

Empiricists make the assumption that it's correct because it's practical to do so.

 

[Quantum Obscurity]

You can at least say that something exists rather than nothing. Well... I can say that. You might be a figment of my imagination.

The only thing one can be assured of its existence is ideas. As stated I do not believe this, but the only logically proved and undeniable facet of existence is that of ideas, as you might not exist to think that you exist, but ideas must exist that believe they you exist.

Once again, I believe more exists, but it cannot be logically proved.

 

[Tomas de Torquemada]

Seeing as I follow empiricism, Yes. So you just assume catholicism is correct then?

Fundamental parts of it, certainly. God existing, for example.

Really, isn't that the standard position? Conversions are effected through the action of the Holy Spirit, not through particularly clever rhetoric or emotive pleadings.

 

[Quantum Obscurity]

Fundamental parts of it, certainly. God existing, for example.

Really, isn't that the standard position? Conversions are effected through the action of the Holy Spirit, not through particularly clever rhetoric or emotive pleadings.

Conversions are not made through any kind of holy activity. The vast majority are made with either the possibility of hope, which humans follow because of the fear that nothing exists after death. Religion offers redemption. Or made through trickery, lets not deny it. (I do not suggest that all christians are like this) Missionaries who travel to far off, uneducated tribes to convert, I apologize, but its one of the most despicable forms of conversion there is.

The majority of believers do so because they were born into families or cultures that follow their particular religion, and then do not come to actually question their own beliefs. You believe because you were raised into it. You believe without question. I questioned my beliefs, challenged them, and realized how ridiculous it was that I believed originally.
Admittedly some people question their beliefs and arrive at the conclusion that they still want to believe. I have nothing but respect for these people, but I resent it when people believe simply because they were raised into it. I cannot say for sure whether you are one of these people or not.

 

[Quantum Obscurity]

Going to bed. Will argue more tomorrow <3

 

[Tomas de Torquemada]

Conversions are not made through any kind of holy activity. The vast majority are made with either the possibility of hope, which humans follow because of the fear that nothing exists after death. Religion offers redemption. Or made through trickery, lets not deny it.

Really? The atheist afterlife is charming. Effortless nirvana for everyone. Even the universalists expect you to repent eventually; the atheists don't even have that requirement.

Missionaries who travel to far off, uneducated tribes to convert are the lowest form of life, I apologize, but its one of the most despicable forms of conversion there is.

Well, the point of evangelization is to give people who have not heard of christ the chance to either accept or reject him. In the western world, most people have a rough outline of the story. You know the score, and you've made your camp.

The majority of believers do so because they were born into families or cultures that follow their particular religion, and then do not come to actually question their own beliefs. You believe because you were raised into it. You believe without question. I questioned my beliefs, challenged them, and realized how ridiculous it was that I believed originally.
Admittedly some people question their beliefs and arrive at the conclusion that they still want to believe. I respect these people, but I resent people who believe simply because they were raised into it. I cannot say for sure whether you are one of these people or not.

Actually, I'm a convert who burnt the bridge behind me after I joined. For me, the question is how no longer what is right or good, but how to indoctrinate myself to do the correct action reflexively.

To consider the existence of God based on your feelings and experiences is ridiculous. David felt abandoned by God frequently, and immortalized these feelings in the Psalms. Mother Theresa felt only the absence of God for most of her 60 years of service. The Dark Night of the Soul is a frequent motif in all of christian mystical literature. To the person who believes based on derived positions or sentiments, this experience results in their apostasy.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Really? The atheist afterlife is charming. Effortless nirvana for everyone. Even the universalists expect you to repent eventually; the atheists don't even have that requirement.

Huh? Atheist afterlife? That's the first I've ever heard of that one...

Please, enlighten me as to what the Atheist afterlife is.

Well, the point of evangelization is to give people who have not heard of christ the chance to either accept or reject him. In the western world, most people have a rough outline of the story. You know the score, and you've made your camp.

Right, but preaching to people without giving them any alternative viewpoints is in effect a kind of brainwashing.

 

[Tomas de Torquemada]

Its sweet oblivion, the absolute cessation of the ego. The end of all earthly concerns and worries. It's analogous to the buddhist nirvana.

Thats the whole point of purgatory, you know. To strip away earthly concerns, to demolish one's ego. But it takes a long time and is very uncomfortable. The medievals saw as pretty much temporary hell until you became as a saint. But atheists get it without any effort or discomfort.

Right, but preaching to people without giving them any alternative viewpoints is in effect a kind of brainwashing.

... this is nonsense. You are telling them the score, and they are allowed the same luxury that you have, to either accept or reject it.