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An Open Question

bling

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we didn't understand electricity until the 1880's, simply because we hadn't advanced enough to understand it.

Sorry for interrupting but as a scientist I do not “understand” electricity, so would you mind explaining it? Why does there have to be an electro-magnetic constant?
We do not know everything, but everything we DO know has a simple, logical, material cause
What do we really “know” that is “simple, logical, material cause”. I am still under the impression “the more we know the more we realize we do not know.”
 
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lesliedellow

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OH WAIT. Thats amazingly stupid! We can't create universes, because we can't "quite easily design" them. You are contradicting your beliefs with pathetic attempts to insult atheists.

It is not at all difficult to come upo with other universes as mathematical abstractions. What might be just a little more difficult, however, is to arrange for a big bang.

The charge on an electron might be just a little bit less, the weak nuclear force might be just a little bit stronger..... Theoretical physicists can play all sorts of games like that, and see what happens when they crunch the numbers.
 
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Sorry for interrupting but as a scientist I do not “understand” electricity, so would you mind explaining it? Why does there have to be an electro-magnetic constant?

By "we" I mean, the human race as a whole. I'm not going to sum up the knowledge of an individual and use examples based on his understanding. We understand how to create and utilize electrical energy, in much the same way we utilize chemical energy.

What do we really “know” that is “simple, logical, material cause”. I am still under the impression “the more we know the more we realize we do not know.”

Everything we learn has reason for it, nothing supernatural is input into the equation. For example, we know that, should we move something, its velocity is determined by the force pushing it countered by the degree of force working against it (air resistance, friction, gravity etc.) Nothing within this kind of knowledge involves any mysterious "supernatural entity". Or maybe I am wrong, put forward a piece of knowledge that we understand through a "supernatural" meaning. Something we do not understand yet does not count, as it is not knowledge. Supernatural, is something that does not obey the known laws of physics and nature, and something that is judged to be immaterial. Hmm, back the the problem of substance dualism that I addressed about 8 times during the thread so far. No one has offered a satisfactory comeback to it yet, perhaps you will have more luck?
 
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It is not at all difficult to come upo with other universes as mathematical abstractions. What might be just a little more difficult, however, is to arrange for a big bang.

The charge on an electron might be just a little bit less, the weak nuclear force might be just a little bit stronger..... Theoretical physicists can play all sorts of games like that, and see what happens when they crunch the numbers.

This simply comes back the the idea of either circle theory, or the fine tuning "only possible outcome" (or at least one of but a few workable outcomes). It still does not point to a divine input.
 
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lesliedellow

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This simply comes back the the idea of either circle theory, or the fine tuning "only possible outcome" (or at least one of but a few workable outcomes). It still does not point to a divine input.

As I have already said, the "circle theory" is a non starter:

1.) Because we now know that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, not slowing.
2.) Because we now also know that there is not enough mass in the universe to precipitate a big crunch.

So you are just left saying, "Doesn't PROVE God."

No it doesn't, but it is strong EVIDENCE pointing in that direction.
 
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As I have already said, the "circle theory" is a non starter:

1.) Because we now know that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, not slowing.
2.) Because we now also know that there is not enough mass in the universe to precipitate a big crunch.

So you are just left saying, "Doesn't PROVE God."

No it doesn't, but it is strong EVIDENCE pointing in that direction.

You seem to fail to understand evidence. Evidence is a positive aspect of thought. The only "evidence" you have provided is a negative kind "its NOT this" and its "Not this".

Say you asked me to explain to you what a dog was, i could list every single thing in the universe that WASN'T a dog, but you would be no closer to understanding what a dog is, would you?
 
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What if GOD reveals HIMSELF to you in time to come through your circumstances,and HE makes it obvious to you that HE'S REAL. Will you believe in HIM then??

Long answer: Yes.

As I said, I believed for 16 years, and should something convince me enough, I would accept it. As also stated, I am an empiricist, so I only believe that which I have evidence for, and evidence does not constitute, as believed by my good friend lesliedellow, negative statements.
 
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lesliedellow

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Not even remotely close...

You can please yourself whether you believe it is evidence for the existence of God or not. Just to remind you, this thread started out with somebody asking why I - me personally - believe in God. I frankly couldn't give two hoots what you believe.

And just in case you think I am a country bumpkin whom no scientist could possibly agree with, I could start name dropping, but I won't unless you insist on it.
 
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Belk

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It is not at all difficult to come upo with other universes as mathematical abstractions. What might be just a little more difficult, however, is to arrange for a big bang.

The charge on an electron might be just a little bit less, the weak nuclear force might be just a little bit stronger..... Theoretical physicists can play all sorts of games like that, and see what happens when they crunch the numbers.


By "not at all difficult" I hope you mean it is a extremely complex set of mathematical equations that are completely theoretical?
 
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ToddNotTodd

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You can please yourself whether you believe it is evidence for the existence of God or not.

It obviously isn't, because it's not logical to think that fine tuning points to a god.

Just to remind you, this thread started out with somebody asking why I - me personally - believe in God. I frankly couldn't give two hoots what you believe.

And just in case you think I am a country bumpkin whom no scientist could possibly agree with, I could start name dropping, but I won't unless you insist on it.

Doesn't matter who's names you'd be dropping, because this isn't a scientific matter.
 
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lesliedellow

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By "not at all difficult" I hope you mean it is a extremely complex set of mathematical equations that are completely theoretical?

By not at all difficult, I meant that you can play around with the fundamental constants, in any way you please, and then see what happens.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Theoretical physicists can quite easily design "toy" universes on the back of envelopes, and then see what the modified constants imply. That is where the figure comes from.

I can conceptualize species of elephant that come in any possible colour. There could have been pink, purple, red, orange, green, blue, indigo, maroon, off-white, lavender, elephants etc.

So I can take every possible colour and say the likelihood of elephants turning out grey was 1 in billions. Where it's just simply not correct....

Theoretical ideas does not equal fact, toy universes are not fact, they are concepts. Unless they are observed, we can not comment on their probability at all. As I said, it's very possible our "finely tuned" universe couldn't have turned out any other way.


See above. If other universes can exist as mathematical abstractions there is no reason to suppose that one of them might not have existed in reality.

Sure there is, abstract ideas gives no validity to their actual truth values. It doesn't mean they don't exist, however we have absolutely no reason to assume they do.


One does not for long have to listen to the new atheists to know that, for them, scientists are the high priests of the new atheism.

Give me a break.... If you truly believe that, then you're ignorant.

So to have those same scientists saying that the evidence can be construed as pointing to the existence of God was a bit embarrassing. After all, they are all the while asking for "evidence", safe (as they THINK) in the knowledge that none is to be had.

If God had any impact on the physical world, then there would be evidence of it. We are genuinely asking to see an argument that isn't full of fallacies, or actual observable evidence for your claims.

If you can provide that, I would be happy to accept your God Claim as sound. The fact nobody has been able to do that so far just shows those claims are unsound.
 
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