Hierarchy in the church

[mindlight]

A friend of mine just got thrown out of his church for failing to respect the authority structures there. He seems to think that the New Testament has abolished all hierarchies and that we have no boss but Jesus.

How would you support the existence of church authorities and on what grounds is explusion from the church justifiable?

 

[bling]

I agree with your friend. The system Jesus established was one of small groups with Christ living in and through a mentor of the group with Jesus doing the actual leading. If just one person in the small group per year progressed to the point of allowing Christ to live through him to lead another small group, in 34 years you run out of people on earth to be in your small group (all 6 billion + are in small groups).

 

[Gnarwhal]

A friend of mine just got thrown out of his church for failing to respect the authority structures there. He seems to think that the New Testament has abolished all hierarchies and that we have no boss but Jesus.

How would you support the existence of church authorities and on what grounds is explusion from the church justifiable?

What kind of church was your friend a part of? Most of the mainline Protestant churches I know of wouldn't just up and "excommunicate" a member simply for questioning the nature of the church polity. I actually am not even sure that kind of action would be taken in Catholic or Orthodox communities...

 

[x141]

There is no difference with the church now than was at his first appearing. Paul and them put structure in place just as Moses did, but that structure never caused them to enter into the promise. Peter and them were drawing straws more or less as to determine who would take Judas' place, and people what to go back to this ? God's people are living in babylon along with there sheperds in a state of confusion. The church itself has lied down with a beast and has a confusion of face.

 

[Knee V]

What happened to your friend seems pretty ridiculous, but we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water. Christ established order in the church, not a free-for-all.

 

[mindlight]

I agree with your friend. The system Jesus established was one of small groups with Christ living in and through a mentor of the group with Jesus doing the actual leading. If just one person in the small group per year progressed to the point of allowing Christ to live through him to lead another small group, in 34 years you run out of people on earth to be in your small group (all 6 billion + are in small groups).

So you do not believe in the existence of apostles or the practice of handing the immoral believer over to Satan discussed by paul. Paul seems to be training a leader in the case of Timothy and God is God of orderly worship.

 

[mindlight]

What kind of church was your friend a part of? Most of the mainline Protestant churches I know of wouldn't just up and "excommunicate" a member simply for questioning the nature of the church polity. I actually am not even sure that kind of action would be taken in Catholic or Orthodox communities...

It is a Vineyard church - my friend was starting up a little revolution in practice on the issue of tithing but I think the issue is deeper than that and to do with the very structure of church government. He seems to reject any idea of church authority except on the ad hoc basis of whoever has done the practical work of organising a particular event or house rules for instance. Also he claims the church was teaching prosperity gospel but the church leaders heartedly deny this and say that this is slanderous against them.

 

[mindlight]

What happened to your friend seems pretty ridiculous, but we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water. Christ established order in the church, not a free-for-all.

I agree there is an order and I believe also a hierarchy. The Catholics have that clearly defined but if even conservative evangelicals like myself can read that in scripture.

I wonder how people would defend the view there is hierarchy in the NT church which needs to be respected.

 

[ananda]

A friend of mine just got thrown out of his church for failing to respect the authority structures there. He seems to think that the New Testament has abolished all hierarchies and that we have no boss but Jesus. How would you support the existence of church authorities and on what grounds is explusion from the church justifiable?

I also agree with your friend.

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." Jn 10:16 & "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Messiah; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Messiah." Mt 23:8-10

We are all nothing more than brethren in His flock; none of us are to lord it over any other (1Pet 5:3, Rev 2:6,15). He is our One Shepherd, Master, and Teacher. However, I do recognize "elders," in the sense that there are those who are older in the Way, responsible for setting an example for the younger (1Pet 5:3,5) and by praying always for them (Jam 5:14).

 

[New_Wineskin]

A friend of mine just got thrown out of his church for failing to respect the authority structures there. He seems to think that the New Testament has abolished all hierarchies and that we have no boss but Jesus.

How would you support the existence of church authorities and on what grounds is explusion from the church justifiable?

I couldn't support either one .

I would like to know if your friend gave money to the group and demanded a refund after expulsion . Sounds like a good lawsuit , to me .

 

[a_ntv]

A friend of mine just got thrown out of his church for failing to respect the authority structures there. He seems to think that the New Testament has abolished all hierarchies and that we have no boss but Jesus.

How would you support the existence of church authorities and on what grounds is explusion from the church justifiable?

Well, St Paul clearly compare the church with the human body, and clarify that each part of the body is different even if fully united with the other parts:

1 Cor 12: For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— Jews or Greeks, slaves[d] or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.

14 For the body does not consist of one member but of many. 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” that would not make it any less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the sense of hearing? If the whole body were an ear, where would be the sense of smell? 18 But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose. 19 If all were a single member, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts,[e] yet one body.

And Saint Paul goes on clarifying that not all have the same function:

28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?

So your idea that the New Testament has abolished all hierarchies is un-biblical. You can read also for example Titus 1,5 where St Paul orders Titus to appoint presbyters in every town (so for sure St Paul wanted a hierarchy)

 

[Gnarwhal]

What happened to your friend seems pretty ridiculous, but we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water. Christ established order in the church, not a free-for-all.

QFT.

It is a Vineyard church - my friend was starting up a little revolution in practice on the issue of tithing but I think the issue is deeper than that and to do with the very structure of church government. He seems to reject any idea of church authority except on the ad hoc basis of whoever has done the practical work of organising a particular event or house rules for instance. Also he claims the church was teaching prosperity gospel but the church leaders heartedly deny this and say that this is slanderous against them.

For me that says a lot, the Vineyard group of churches has been off-base for quite some time IMHO. I went to one that broke away from the larger "denomination" because of the weird post-Toronto type stuff they were into. So I would say whatever's going on at Vineyard is not representative of the church structure as whole, especially in high church traditions like Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Presbyterianism, Catholicism or Orthodoxy...

 

[Radagast]

It is a Vineyard church - my friend was starting up a little revolution in practice on the issue of tithing

I don't know anything about Vineyard, but most churches dislike members campaigning against their teachings.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I don't know anything about Vineyard, but most churches dislike members campaigning against their teachings.

Agreed, though it seems (at least from my experience) that most churches would address the issue head-on instead of excusing the member from the community. I could be wrong though.

 

[Standing Up]

It is a Vineyard church - my friend was starting up a little revolution in practice on the issue of tithing but I think the issue is deeper than that and to do with the very structure of church government. He seems to reject any idea of church authority except on the ad hoc basis of whoever has done the practical work of organising a particular event or house rules for instance. Also he claims the church was teaching prosperity gospel but the church leaders heartedly deny this and say that this is slanderous against them.

What's deeper than money to some

But yeah, he's in their territory and needs to abide the rules, unless "raised up" (probably doubtful in this day and age).

There's clearly elders and new borns in the church. It works just like in the physical.

 

[mindlight]

I also agree with your friend.

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." Jn 10:16 & "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Messiah; and all ye are brethren. And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Messiah." Mt 23:8-10

We are all nothing more than brethren in His flock; none of us are to lord it over any other (1Pet 5:3, Rev 2:6,15). He is our One Shepherd, Master, and Teacher. However, I do recognize "elders," in the sense that there are those who are older in the Way, responsible for setting an example for the younger (1Pet 5:3,5) and by praying always for them (Jam 5:14).

This seems to be a very selective use of verses

1) Church Authority is definitely biblical

My son, be strong in the grace that is found in Christ Jesus. 2 You have heard me teach in front of many witnesses. Pass on to men you can trust the things you've heard me say. Then they will be able to teach others also.

12 Brothers and sisters, we ask you to have respect for the godly leaders who work hard among you. They have authority over you. They correct you. 13 Have a lot of respect for them. Love them because of what they do. Live in peace with each other.

15 Those are the things you should teach. Cheer people up and give them hope. Correct them with full authority. Don't let anyone look down on you.

Remember your leaders. They spoke God's word to you. Think about the results of their way of life. Copy their faith.

2) Church discipline is also important and clearly biblical

12 Is it my business to judge those outside the church? Aren't you supposed to judge those inside the church? 13 God will judge those outside. Scripture says, "Get rid of that evil person!"

He has been punished because most of you decided he should be. That is enough for him.

But what if he also refuses to listen to the witnesses? Then tell it to the church. And what if he refuses to listen even to the church? Then don't treat him as your brother. Treat him as you would treat an ungodly person or a tax collector.

Warn anyone who tries to get believers to take sides and separate into their own little groups. Warn him more than once. After that, have nothing to do with him.

14 Keep an eye on anyone who doesn't obey the directions in our letter. Watch that person closely. Have nothing to do with him. Then he will feel ashamed. 15 But don't think of him as an enemy. Instead, warn him as a brother or sister.

Brothers and sisters, what if someone is caught in a sin? Then you who are guided by the Spirit should correct that person. Do it in a gentle way. But be careful. You could be tempted too.

10 Many people refuse to obey God. All they do is talk a lot. They try to fool others. No one does these things more than the circumcision group. 11 They must be stopped. They are destroying entire families. They are teaching things they shouldn't. They do it to get money by cheating people.

Warn anyone who tries to get believers to take sides and separate into their own little groups. Warn him more than once. After that, have nothing to do with him.

 

[mindlight]

I couldn't support either one .

I would like to know if your friend gave money to the group and demanded a refund after expulsion . Sounds like a good lawsuit , to me .

Yes he was tithing but he considered the amount that they were asking for (10%) to be too much. He said that 1% was more biblical as we only need to support the actual work of the church (which took only 10% of the tithe given to the Levites in scripture) and certain ministries like supporting the widow and the orphan for instance or the Levites who were not priests were now covered by the welfare state.

Believers should not be suing each other as that is not a good witness to unbelievers.

 

[mindlight]

Well, St Paul clearly compare the church with the human body, and clarify that each part of the body is different even if fully united with the other parts:



And Saint Paul goes on clarifying that not all have the same function:



So your idea that the New Testament has abolished all hierarchies is un-biblical. You can read also for example Titus 1,5 where St Paul orders Titus to appoint presbyters in every town (so for sure St Paul wanted a hierarchy)

I agree that hierachy and authority are there in scripture and never said that I agreed with my friend on that one.

 

[mindlight]

QFT.



For me that says a lot, the Vineyard group of churches has been off-base for quite some time IMHO. I went to one that broke away from the larger "denomination" because of the weird post-Toronto type stuff they were into. So I would say whatever's going on at Vineyard is not representative of the church structure as whole, especially in high church traditions like Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Presbyterianism, Catholicism or Orthodoxy...

Vineyards have been very effective at winning new believers to God and great things have happened in them. I come from an Anglican background but hold to a conservative Evangelical viewpoint so am familiar with other church structures. I actually believe that what happened in Toronto was a work of God as the people effected by it were deeply transformed and keen to be true to God through the whole sometimes shocking way in which God moved in certain people.

 

[mindlight]

I don't know anything about Vineyard, but most churches dislike members campaigning against their teachings.

Yes and as with the bible teachings that I listed there are grounds to remove someone who is publically defying church leaders, acting in a divisive manner and over the apparent desire of reducing the amount he and others give to the church.

This OP has helped clarify my view on my friends actions and I believe the authorities have acted correctly in this case.