Hierarchy in the church

[mindlight]

Agreed, though it seems (at least from my experience) that most churches would address the issue head-on instead of excusing the member from the community. I could be wrong though.

They did approach him and address some of his issues from the pulpit also. He is quite a hard person to talk to when he is on his hobby horse. It is possible that they considered this to be the only way to get him to realise the seriousness of his actions.

 

[mindlight]

What's deeper than money to some

Yeh point taken and a reason to pray for my friend.

But yeah, he's in their territory and needs to abide the rules, unless "raised up" (probably doubtful in this day and age).

There's clearly elders and new borns in the church. It works just like in the physical.

Also agreed

 

[ananda]

This seems to be a very selective use of verses

1) Church Authority is definitely biblical ... 2) Church discipline is also important and clearly biblical

Thank you for quoting your verses, but I "selectively" used verses for a reason: I am of the position that Paul is not an genuine apostle, and I do not place much value on his writings. Hebrews is also not "Scripture" for me. Messiah in Matt. 18:17-18 is saying that matters must be brought to the whole congregation in general; it's interesting that He did not instead refer to "appointed leaders" in the congregation. I believe this is so because He is our only Leader, and we are all only His sheep.

Even if you do heed Paul's advice, you'll still need to grapple with what Messiah clearly said: that we should call nobody but Him our Master, Teacher, and Shepherd." The advice of Paul does not overrule the commandment of Messiah: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither is the apostolos greater than He that sent him." Jn 13:16

When the doctrines introduced by Paul (& Hebrews) are ignored, you'll likely come to my conclusion

 

[x141]

What happened to your friend seems pretty ridiculous, but we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water. Christ established order in the church, not a free-for-all.

The organized church has been throwing out the baby and keeping the bath water for a long time now, but all things work for the good.

 

[Gnarwhal]

They did approach him and address some of his issues from the pulpit also. He is quite a hard person to talk to when he is on his hobby horse. It is possible that they considered this to be the only way to get him to realise the seriousness of his actions.

Yeah, I suppose if I had somebody causing a major disruption within the community and they couldn't be reasoned with then forcing them out is the only choice left.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Thank you for quoting your verses, but I "selectively" used verses for a reason: I am of the position that Paul is not an genuine apostle, and I do not place much value on his writings. Hebrews is also not "Scripture" for me.

When the doctrines introduced by Paul (& Hebrews) are ignored, you'll likely come to my conclusion

We would love to debate you and/or your sects unorthodox view of Paul and his Epistles on this thread

http://www.christianforums.com/t7666579/
The Authenticity of Paul and his Epistles.

I have been seeing a growing theme on this site about a good number of people doubting the apostleship and authority of Paul and his writings. What is the basis of this?

Personally, I see people who personally do not like his theology so they discredit him.

So come get it out of your system. Tell me your reasoning and use Scripture to back up your claims.

 

[bling]

So you do not believe in the existence of apostles or the practice of handing the immoral believer over to Satan discussed by paul. Paul seems to be training a leader in the case of Timothy and God is God of orderly worship.

We do not have apostles today. Is Paul instructing the “members” directly to discipline another member or is he going through bishops, presbyters, elders, and deacons?

Is Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit leading you or are men leading you?

 

[bling]

Well, St Paul clearly compare the church with the human body, and clarify that each part of the body is different even if fully united with the other parts:



And Saint Paul goes on clarifying that not all have the same function:



So your idea that the New Testament has abolished all hierarchies is un-biblical. You can read also for example Titus 1,5 where St Paul orders Titus to appoint presbyters in every town (so for sure St Paul wanted a hierarchy)

How is there a "hierarch" in a physical body, unless you talk about the head which is Christ? Have a hurt finger and see what inportance it plays.

 

[mindlight]

When the doctrines introduced by Paul (& Hebrews) are ignored, you'll likely come to my conclusion

I cannot accept the rejection of the Pauline epistles from canonical scripture as being valid.

 

[ananda]

I cannot accept the rejection of the Pauline epistles from canonical scripture as being valid.

Of course ... I'm merely sharing my perspective

 

[a_ntv]

How is there a "hierarch" in a physical body, unless you talk about the head which is Christ? Have a hurt finger and see what inportance it plays.

Well, you can live without a finger, but you cannot live without the lungs (just for example) ... sorry this image is not mine, it is Paul's

Of course if a finger hurts the whole body suffers: also St Paul underlined this aspect that we all are part of the body. But he also stressed that not all of us have the same function.

The body is not a formless mass of cells/parts: it is heavily organized, structured and hierarchical: the same shall be for the Church.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Yes he was tithing but he considered the amount that they were asking for (10%) to be too much. He said that 1% was more biblical as we only need to support the actual work of the church (which took only 10% of the tithe given to the Levites in scripture) and certain ministries like supporting the widow and the orphan for instance or the Levites who were not priests were now covered by the welfare state.

Believers should not be suing each other as that is not a good witness to unbelievers.

He would not be suing believers but a corrupt organization that stole his money and then put him to the curb . It would be a great witness to unbelievers that such things should not be tolerated by Christians by supposed other "christians" . It would also be a witness to other clubs that think that they can pick the pocket of Christians and have an occultlike attitude that leaders must be obeyed to the letter .

 

[LinkH]

A friend of mine just got thrown out of his church for failing to respect the authority structures there. He seems to think that the New Testament has abolished all hierarchies and that we have no boss but Jesus.

How would you support the existence of church authorities and on what grounds is explusion from the church justifiable?

I think your friend is overstating his case somewhat. I suppose it depends on one's definition of hierarchy.

I Peter 5 tells the younger to submit to the elder. Even if you took it to refer to age (forgetting the charge to elders to pastor a few verses before, and the whole context of elders in the New Testament), there is still something to that. It does tell us after that to be subject one to another. Paul did have authority, as he pointed out in one of his epistles.

 

[ananda]

I Peter 5 tells the younger to submit to the elder. Even if you took it to refer to age (forgetting the charge to elders to pastor a few verses before, and the whole context of elders in the New Testament), there is still something to that. It does tell us after that to be subject one to another.

1Pet 5:2 said that the elders should feed the flock (by sharing the Word) and to care for them, by being examples (1Pet 5:3b) to the younger. The younger is advised to listen to their elders (1Pet 5:5). The elder is not to rule over the younger (1Pet 5:3).

The word Pastor comes from the Latin word pastor, which means "Shepherd". Yehoshua Messiah is our One and Only Shepherd and Pastor, therefore Peter in 1Pet 5 cannot be saying an elder is a Pastor.

Elders have no authority over the flock except to share the Word, to care for them, to give advice, and to be examples.

 

[Nanopants]

A friend of mine just got thrown out of his church for failing to respect the authority structures there. He seems to think that the New Testament has abolished all hierarchies and that we have no boss but Jesus.

How would you support the existence of church authorities and on what grounds is explusion from the church justifiable?

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. -1 Cr 12:28

And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. -1 Cr 14:32

There are definitely ranks under the King's command. Who appoints them but the Lord?