Double Predestination

[Skala]

I can figure it wasn't your point, but it is where the analogy was headed.


Right, but maybe I can get my point across even clearer using this burger analogy. Okay, so you said the medium rare burgers are the ones your family likes. I presume those burgers are being compared to the elect, so the medium rare burgers are the elect. You take them off earlier so they are edible.

The reprobate are being compared to the burnt burgers. My point is that we do not call the same thing as preparing the medium rare burgers as we would for leaving the others to burn.

Predestination does not extend to the reprobate.


I never got into those varying views much. To me, it's all speculation and since we cannot know the mind of God as it is, why speculate what happened prior to creation? Moreover, it wouldn't make sense to say that God decreed events in a certain order from an eternal and thus timeless state.

But yeah, I'd be open to something. As of now I just don't think we should call something predestined when the key aspect of predestination is said to be absent. It doesn't follow.

There's no need to shy away from the English word "predestination"

Pre - before
destination - where you are headed

If God chooses to save some people so that their destination is heaven

He has also necessarily chosen to not save some people so that their destination is hell

That's double predestination.

But in the first, he intervenes to save them from their sins.
In the second, he leaves them exactly where they want to be - in their sins.

He isn't coming in and making them unbelievers - they're unbelievers already. He isn't coming in and making them unrepentant and disobedient - they are those things already.

Surely you see the difference between the two. In salvation, God comes in and regenerates us and brings us to Christ, giving us faith and repentance. Lots of positive action and movement on God's part here.

In the second, where is the positive movement on God's part, so that the reprobate would end up somewhere they wouldn't have ended up otherwise, that you clearly see that the rest of us don't see?

 

[elopez]

There's no need to shy away from the English word "predestination"

Pre - before
destination - where you are headed

I am not shying away from predestination, just only when it is misapplied as I believe it is being done so here.

If God chooses to save some people so that their destination is heaven

He has also necessarily chosen to not save some people so that their destination is hell

The one thing I know we both are going to maintain is that the choice is not of the same nature. When God chooses to save some, as a result the rest are destined to Hell. I don't really see that is a choice, but the consequences of what will happen when one choice prior to is made.

That's double predestination.

How are we defining "predestination" in correlation to God? Would you agree that divine intervention is a necessary component of predestination, alongside foreknowledge which is essentially omniscience? That's what I think predestination consists of.

But in the first, he intervenes to save them from their sins. In the second, he leaves them exactly where they want to be - in their sins.

So in the second, there is no divine intervention, correct?

He isn't coming in and making them unbelievers - they're unbelievers already. He isn't coming in and making them unrepentant and disobedient - they are those things already.

Okay, this seems to affirm the question above. So there is no divine intervention with the unbelievers.

Surely you see the difference between the two. In salvation, God comes in and regenerates us and brings us to Christ, giving us faith and repentance. Lots of positive action and movement on God's part here.

Yes, I have always noticed the difference. There is divine intervention for salvation, but not in the reprobate.

In the second, where is the positive movement on God's part, so that the reprobate would end up somewhere they wouldn't have ended up otherwise, that you clearly see that the rest of us don't see?

I didn't claim, much less hint at, positive movement on God's part for the reprobate. What I am saying is that since there is no positive movement, it cannot be properly called predestination in the truest meaning, and therefore really not at all.

If there is no divine intervention with the reprobate, and predestination consists of divine intervention, then the reprobate are not predestined in any meaning of the word.

 

[St_Worm2]

How are we defining "predestination" in correlation to God? Would you agree that divine intervention is a necessary component of predestination, alongside foreknowledge which is essentially omniscience? That's what I think predestination consists of.

Hi Elopez, I looked up the word "predestination" in a number of my dictionaries and encyclopedias and I cannot find the meaning that you're assigning to it in any of them (especially that divine intervention is a necessary component of it). In fact, quite the opposite is true. Here are a couple of examples:

PREDESTINATION (see CHOSEN; FOREKNOWLEDGE; SOVEREIGNTY)
To predestine means to "predetermine," "foreordain," or "mark off beforehand." Biblical predestination is God’s eternal predetermination of all things according to His perfect will and character and for His own glory (Ps 145:17; Ro 11:36; Eph 1:6, 11–12, 14). Predestination encompasses both directly caused events (e.g., Genesis 1; Ps 33:9; Jam 1:18) and also divinely permitted events (e.g., Nu 22–24; Lu 22:21–22; Ac 2:23–24; 4:27–28). Scripture relates divine predestination primarily to God’s redemptive purposes for His people (De 7:7–8; Ac 18:10; Ro 8:28–30; 1 Pe 2:9). The Christian doctrine of predestination is distinct from fatalism, since Scripture affirms human responsibility along with divine sovereignty (Ac 2:23, 36; Php 2:12–13). The NASB Topical Index
​

And from the preamble of the New Advent Online Catholic Encyclopedia's definition of "predestination" we read:

PREDESTINATION

"Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost through their own fault, there must exist a twofold predestination: (a) one to heaven for all those who die in the state of grace; (b) one to the pains of hell for all those who depart in sin or under God's displeasure." New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia​

--David

 

[Skala]

If there is no divine intervention with the reprobate, and predestination consists of divine intervention, then the reprobate are not predestined in any meaning of the word.

I think your conclusion is a non sequitur. It seems you have imposed upon yourself a particular meaning of the word "predestination".

Pre (decided before) destination (a place you go). It simply means your destination is decided.

If there is no divine intervention to sinners, on God's part, the default destination is hell. For example, if you are holding an object, and you let go of it (ie, you cease to provide positive intervention on the object), its destination is the floor. It has a destination, apart from you work.

Sinners, they have a destination, apart from grace. I'm not sure why you are insisting that divine intervention must exist for a destination, even a predestination, to be in effect.

 

[elopez]

I think your conclusion is a non sequitur. It seems you have imposed upon yourself a particular meaning of the word "predestination".

If my conclusion were a non sequitur, the conclusion would not flow from the premises. However, as predestination is defined, the conclusion logically follows. I'll explain how predestination must include divine intervention, something that yourself even accepts without perhaps knowing it.

Pre (decided before) destination (a place you go). It simply means your destination is decided.

So this is all predestination signifies? Why then, do we ascribe a positive action on God's behalf when involved with the elect? Is it not the positive action that really leads to salvation, and thus would be the cornerstone of predestination?

All I'm saying is positive action = divine intervention. You affirm positive action from God, right?

If there is no divine intervention to sinners, on God's part, the default destination is hell. For example, if you are holding an object, and you let go of it (ie, you cease to provide positive intervention on the object), its destination is the floor. It has a destination, apart from you work.

Right, so no positive action = no predestination.

Sinners, they have a destination, apart from grace. I'm not sure why you are insisting that divine intervention must exist for a destination, even a predestination, to be in effect.

I am not insisting that intervention must exist for a destination, but for predestination. Positive action, or in other words, divine intervention, is what saves the elect, which is what truly makes them predestined.

 

[elopez]

Hi Elopez, I looked up the word "predestination" in a number of my dictionaries and encyclopedias and I cannot find the meaning that you're assigning to it in any of them (especially that divine intervention is a necessary component of it). In fact, quite the opposite is true. Here are a couple of examples:

PREDESTINATION (see CHOSEN; FOREKNOWLEDGE; SOVEREIGNTY)
To predestine means to "predetermine," "foreordain," or "mark off beforehand." Biblical predestination is God’s eternal predetermination of all things according to His perfect will and character and for His own glory (Ps 145:17; Ro 11:36; Eph 1:6, 11–12, 14). Predestination encompasses both directly caused events (e.g., Genesis 1; Ps 33:9; Jam 1:18) and also divinely permitted events (e.g., Nu 22–24; Lu 22:21–22; Ac 2:23–24; 4:27–28). Scripture relates divine predestination primarily to God’s redemptive purposes for His people (De 7:7–8; Ac 18:10; Ro 8:28–30; 1 Pe 2:9). The Christian doctrine of predestination is distinct from fatalism, since Scripture affirms human responsibility along with divine sovereignty (Ac 2:23, 36; Php 2:12–13). The NASB Topical Index
​

And from the preamble of the New Advent Online Catholic Encyclopedia's definition of "predestination" we read:

PREDESTINATION

"Considering that not all men reach their supernatural end in heaven, but that many are eternally lost through their own fault, there must exist a twofold predestination: (a) one to heaven for all those who die in the state of grace; (b) one to the pains of hell for all those who depart in sin or under God's displeasure." New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia​

--David

Think about what predestination is. It is God actively involved in the lives of men so as to save them. If God is actively involved, then that is the divine intervention.

 

[Skala]

I am not insisting that intervention must exist for a destination, but for predestination.

But people are born into this world headed to heaven or headed to hell.

Christians were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

That means before they were born, they were in Christ. Before they were ever born, or made a decision to believe the gospel, they were in Christ, and their destination was heaven.

Everyone else's destination is hell.

So every person is born with a destination. They aren't at the destination yet, which makes it pre-destination.

 

[elopez]

This is something I asked of you earlier: is the only thing that predestination is, is having a destination before we are engaging said destination? There is no salviac or divine aspect to any of it?

 

[Anoetos]

I hold to a form of double predestination, does that make me a hyper-Calvinist?

I've been reading up on different views lately and many even in the Reformed camp would call me a hyper-Calvinist.

No. A hyper-Calvinist is one who denies that the reprobate have a duty to believe the Gospel though they will not and that this unwillingness is a ground for their condemnation.

Technically...anyway...

I don't much like the expression "double predestination". Afterall, as much as the Bible has to say about the foreordination by God of the reprobate to their just punishment, it only uses the word "predestination" to refer to the grace of eternal life given to the saints.

That said, it may only be semantics. Nothing comes to pass which God has not willed and for God, being eternal, I do not see how there could ever have been a time when He did not will a thing, or more pertinently, a time before He did.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Elopez, as you can see from the many examples you've been given, the definition of the term "predestination" is broader in scope than you would like it to be (as the Catholic Encyclopedia said ... "there must exist a TWOFOLD predestination"). The definition of the word clearly includes both sides, things which are divinely "caused" to occur, as well as things which are divinely "permitted".

That said, I see nothing wrong with using the term "Divine Predestination" to refer to the positive side of predestination only, and "Divine Reprobation" to refer to its negative side, as long as everyone understands that's what's being done, of course.

--David

 

[Anoetos]

Interestingly, the idea that one who holds to "double predestination" (with the understanding that this means that God, before the foundation of the world, definitively and effectively purposed the salvation of the elect and therefore the passing over and reprobation of the rest) is a "hyper-Calvinist" has it's origin among Arminians who do not really understand the doctrine.

This is not "hyper-Calvinism", it's just Calvinism.

 

[elopez]

Hi Elopez, as you can see from the many examples you've been given, the definition of the term "predestination" is broader in scope than you would like it to be (as the Catholic Encyclopedia said ... "there must exist a TWOFOLD predestination"). The definition of the word clearly includes both sides, things which are divinely "caused" to occur, as well as things which are divinely "permitted".

Catholics do not necessarily have to believe in double predestination. In fact, it would be correct to say that we believe no one is predestined to Hell.

"If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema."

Council of Trent, Canon XVII of the Decrees on Justification

We do not and should not claim there is a predestination of the reprobate. Moreover, Scripture does not speak of a predestination of the reprobate. Scripture only speaks of a predestination of the elect. The question is what is the difference between the two that make the former not considered to be predestination? Obviously the only real significant difference is the positive action from God. God acts in one instance for the elect, but simply just let's the reprobate be. However, as I have said, it is that positive action that is said to be the divine intervention. It is that positive action that is said to be the expressive aspect of predestination.

That said, I see nothing wrong with using the term "Divine Predestination" to refer to the positive side of predestination only, and "Divine Reprobation" to refer to its negative side, as long as everyone understands that's what's being done, of course.

--David

Remember, predestination is only so because of the positive interaction. If no positive interaction, then no predestination. If no predestination of the reprobate, then there is no double predestination. So really, since there is no positive action for the unsaved, then there is no sense of a double predestination.

 

[St_Worm2]

Remember, predestination is only so because of the positive interaction. If no positive interaction, then no predestination.

That is your definition of Predestination. It is no one else's! Predestination is about God "choosing". How his choice eventually comes to pass, either by His active or by His passive involvement, is immaterial in this case.

--David

 

[elopez]

That is your definition of Predestination. It is no one else's! Predestination is about God "choosing". How his choice eventually comes to pass, either by His active or by His passive involvement, is immaterial in this case.

--David

I actually got this definition from a friend of mine a long time ago. I'm trying to find what it was he sourced but it was good. Either way I just don't see how we can exclude divine intervention from predestination. It is the positive action that is said to essentially save the elect. It signifies the omnipotence of God.

That being said, I do not understand this being immaterial.

 

[Skala]

This is something I asked of you earlier: is the only thing that predestination is, is having a destination before we are engaging said destination? There is no salviac or divine aspect to any of it?

I'm just talking about the word itself, what it means grammatically.

 

[elopez]

I'm just talking about the word itself, what it means grammatically.

And that's fine but I thought you were discussing the theological meaning earlier. That's what I was talking about anyway.

 

[Skala]

And that's fine but I thought you were discussing the theological meaning earlier. That's what I was talking about anyway.

Sometimes we assign extra biblical words to biblical concepts.

That goes for all doctrine

 

[elopez]

Anyway David, I just noticed what I was looking for was in the advent encyclopedia you just mentioned. If you read further it notes, "However, according to present usages to which we shall adhere in the course of the article, it is better to call the latter decree the Divine "reprobation", so that the term predestination is reserved for the Divine decree of the happiness of the elect."

 

[elopez]

Sometimes we assign extra biblical words to biblical concepts.

That goes for all doctrine

So what is extra Biblical about divine intervention?

 

[Anoetos]

προορίζω - from "pro" and "horizo" to limit in advance, by extension to predetermine.

The word "horizo" is the root of our word "horizon" of course, which is emblematic of an ultimate limit. It refers to placement. Theologically then, it refers to the placement of the elect in Christ and their enjoyment of eternal life in Him.