The Authenticity of Paul and his Epistles.

[Frogster]

I did not add anything to my translation. I would not, as I am well aware of the condemnation given to those who add to YHWH's Words.

ὁμολογήσῃς, as found in Rom 10:9, is in the Greek aorist tense. The aorist tense shows a one-time action. ὁμολογήσῃς is thus most accurately translated "one-time confession". Belief, in that same verse, is also in the aorist tense. Paul claims salvation comes through a one-time confession & one-time belief.

Also, Messiah did not come to bring a message of faith or works. He came to bring a message of ongoing trust, ongoing repentance, and ongoing obedience ...

If I may clarify this translation ... Messiah actually stated "depart from me, you who (continually)work anti-Law!"

The word "work iniquity" in the KJV is translated from ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν. ἐργαζόμενοι τὴν ἀνομίαν is in the Greek present tense. The Greek present tense actually implies an action which starts, and continues going on. And, of course, ἀνομία means anti- or against- the Law.

And thus, I say "Amein!" to this verse.

not at all, he said to walk in the Spirit after the new birth..

You act like pentecost did not happen.

Peter said the Gentiles got the Spirit, as the Jews in Acts 11:15, and 15;8..

you need to understand what Spirit life is all about.

 

[ananda]

Oh, and you can re-translate the Bible in your own words too. (how special)

Look up the Greek words and Greek tenses, and you'll see that I did not mistranslate.

If you can show me where I'm wrong, please do so - I want to find the truth, even if it disagrees with my current understanding. Also, I don't just rely on English translations, I prefer the original languages.

 

[Radagast]

It has been my experience that there are many who would obfuscate the problems with Paul in order to keep his epistles in "Bibles" today, since they have a personal agenda that needed Paul's theology and his banner of "grace" in order to decriminalize and indulge in restrictions and sins found in the Law.

I find your attacks on Christianity offensive. Please remember this is a Christian website.

 

[ananda]

I find your attacks on Christianity offensive. Please remember this is a Christian website.

And I wholly believe and trust in Messiah!

What I find offensive is those who marginalize Messiah's Words in favor of a messenger's words: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither is the apostolos greater than He that sent him. Jn 13:16

 

[Frogster]

Look up the Greek words and Greek tenses, and you'll see that I did not mistranslate.

If you can show me where I'm wrong, please do so - I want to find the truth, even if it disagrees with my current understanding. Also, I don't just rely on English translations, I prefer the original languages.

naaa..justification is a one time delcaration imputation, Abraham believed, and it was imputed, Gen 15:6, u r not understanding that SANCTIFICATION, is when the Spirit takes over. Paul was right in Romans.
We believed, than are saved, then we have the Holy Spirit, that is a fact.

 

[Frogster]

I find your attacks on Christianity offensive. Please remember this is a Christian website.

 

[Frogster]

And I wholly believe and trust in Messiah!

What I find offensive is those who marginalize Messiah's Words in favor of a messenger's words: Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither is the apostolos greater than He that sent him. Jn 13:16

Jesus said believe, and we are not condemend, passed from death to life, he did not say work to be born again.


John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.


John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.


Passed...passed..from death to life...

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

And I wholly believe and trust in Messiah!

If you truly believe in Messiah then you will believe in his Word, even the words he spoke concerning Paul.

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

 

[Frogster]

If you truly believe in Messiah then you will believe in his Word, even the words he spoke concerning Paul.

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

exactly, we have to think luke lied, or was a crazy person, for his theology to stand, chuck out Acts, Peter, and one of our gospels..wow!

 

[Fireinfolding]

Im not understanding the problem with Psalm 68:18 (on page 2 I think it was) though

If we run it without Paul these seem to go fine

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Run it with Paul

Psalm 68:18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: THOU HAST RECEIVED gifts FOR men; yea, FOR the rebellious also, that the LORD God might dwell among them.

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and HAVING RECEIVED OF the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye NOW see and hear.

Ephes 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, AND GAVE gifts unto men.

Is it just the word gave? Or is it the next part where it mentions he gave some apostles, pastors etc issue? I mean it mentions the same giving of pastors elsewhere

Jeremiah 3:15 And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

The whole "feed my sheep" is there, but Im not seeing the problem as clearly as I would like.

 

[Standing Up]

It seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you are stating that Luke & Acts are either "Scripture" or "not Scripture," and if they are not Scripture, that the whole book(s) must be thrown out. I present a third position - I contend that most of Acts is most likely a historical work by a fallible, historical man (Luke), who wrote the account to the best of his ability based on second-hand hearsay information. As history, I believe many parts of Acts are accurate, many parts are questionable (because there are no additional witnesses as required by YHVH & Yehoshua ), and many parts are untrue. Are school books considered 100% worthless because parts of them are likely conjectures?

Which parts? You've latched onto one or both as God-breathed?

ζημίας

- damage to a ψυχῶν- soul from a physical action (violent voyage), can only mean death.

They were brought through it safely.

 

[Standing Up]

Paul: "That if thou shalt confess(once) with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe(once) in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shall be saved." Rom 10:9 ... vs ...

Messiah: "For Elohim so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever continues to be faithfully obedient in Him should not perish, but should have everlasting life." Jn 3:16

KJV John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

What version are you using?

 

[ananda]

What version are you using?

That was my translation.

 

[Radagast]

That was my translation.

Not a very accurate one. Looking at the original Greek, we see:

For in this way (οὕτως γὰ&#961 God loved (ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸ&#962 the world (τὸν κόσμο&#957: that (ὥστ&#949 he gave his one and only Son (τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκε&#957, so that (ἵν&#945 whoever believes (πᾶς ὁ πιστεύω&#957 in him (εἰς αὐτὸ&#957 should not perish (μὴ ἀπόλητα&#953 but (ἀλλ&#8217 have eternal life (ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιο&#957.

 

[ananda]

Not a very accurate one. Looking at the original Greek, we see: For in this way (οὕτως γὰ&#961 God loved (ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸ&#962 the world (τὸν κόσμο&#957: that (ὥστ&#949 he gave his one and only Son (τὸν υἱὸν τὸν μονογενῆ ἔδωκε&#957, so that (ἵν&#945 whoever believes (πᾶς ὁ πιστεύω&#957 in him (εἰς αὐτὸ&#957 should not perish (μὴ ἀπόλητα&#953 but (ἀλλ&#8217 have eternal life (ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιο&#957.

I believe my translation was more correct. The Greek you quoted is accurate, of course, but the translation you provided is:

1. missing the expression of the present tense of the verb πιστεύων (i.e. "whoever continues to be faithful/trusting/obedient", not "whoever believes" - the latter hides the fact that the present tense is continuous);
2. it is missing the indefiniteness of the subjunctive mood of ἔχῃ (e.g. "should have eternal life", not "will definitely have eternal life");
3. also πιστεύων here is more precisely translated "faithfulness", which would include the concepts of "faith," "trust," "belief," and "obedience".

 

[Frogster]

I believe my translation was more correct. The Greek you quoted is accurate, of course, but the translation you provided is:

1. missing the expression of the present tense of the verb πιστεύων (i.e. "whoever continues to be faithful/trusting/obedient", not "whoever believes" - the latter hides the fact that the present tense is continuous);
2. it is missing the indefiniteness of the subjunctive mood of ἔχῃ (e.g. "should have eternal life", not "will definitely have eternal life");
3. also πιστεύων here is more precisely translated "faithfulness", which would include the concepts of "faith," "trust," "belief," and "obedience".

your problem is this..the omission that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, after the age of law, that is the new power, not Judaism, or rules...

So u r trying to bind law on the church, when it was powerless in the first place, so the true discipline is to walk in the power of the Spirit, not Judaism, and laws that can't even be followed anyway, no more temple, so history ALSO SHOWS A FLAW TO YOUR THEOLOGY, UNLESS OF CORSE YOU ARE GOING TO A PRIESTHOOD THAT IS NOT THERE ANYMORE.

So, what are we to be obedient to? You stress obedience..well..to what set of laws?

 

[Standing Up]

That was my translation.

Well, we're sorta spiraling downward from rejecting God-breathed scripture to rewriting it.

Good luck.

 

[Radagast]

I believe my translation was more correct. The Greek you quoted is accurate, of course, but the translation you provided is:

1. missing the expression of the present tense of the verb πιστεύων (i.e. "whoever continues to be faithful/trusting/obedient", not "whoever believes" - the latter hides the fact that the present tense is continuous);
2. it is missing the indefiniteness of the subjunctive mood of ἔχῃ (e.g. "should have eternal life", not "will definitely have eternal life");
3. also πιστεύων here is more precisely translated "faithfulness", which would include the concepts of "faith," "trust," "belief," and "obedience".

(1) Since Greek only has one present tense, "believes" is probably a better translation than your six-word phrase, which added all kinds of things to the text. In English, "believes" also has a continuous meaning, anyway.

(2) You're misunderstanding the subjunctive here. It does not say "whoever believes in him might perhaps have eternal life." Rather, with ἵνα the subjunctive simply expresses purpose: God gave his one and only Son so that ...

(3) You're mistranslating the verb: πιστεύων εἰς means "believing in."

Let's look at what some Bible versions have:

ESV: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
NIV: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
HCSB: For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
NLT: For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
MESSAGE: This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.

They all have some version of the literal translation I gave.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I have been seeing a growing theme on this site about a good number of people doubting the apostleship and authority of Paul and his writings. What is the basis of this?

Personally, I see people who personally do not like his theology so they discredit him.

So come get it out of your system. Tell me your reasoning and use Scripture to back up your claims.

Great question!
Not only do the apostate religions of Judaism and Islam have a problem with Paul, but I do hear some Christian sects appear also to have a problem with him and his epistles.
Not sure what all the hoopla is about

http://www.christianforums.com/t7529920-34/#post56601136
Problems with Paul

Original OP:

So I"m reading the bible cover to cover, like any other book, in an attempt to get greater understanding, learning and growing in my relationship with God. (I don't belong to a church and won't)

Everything was going just fine.........till I got to romans, then I started having a problem here.

I'm having severe internal conflict now because I'm seeing contradictions in pauls letters.

Please help me out here.

Here are my issues so far, I"m in the corinthians letters so far and will continue reading further tonight.

Paul basically said that the law is no more, you can eat what you want, you can worship anyday that you want, all that law is gone.

Ok.......sounds good to me. But, then he started talking about women wearing a head covering while praying, and men not being allowed to wear one, and then women can't speak in the church, and he actually said something like "This is the Law" or something to that affect.

Huh, say what???????????????????????????? The Law? But he just got done saying there is no law, but then now there is the Law just in regards to women??????????

Having a problem with that total contradiction. Did I misunderstand something here or what?

Then he says that the governments are good, we are to obey them, and they have god's blessing, or something to that affect. Well, when the governments require us to get the mark of the beast.........what then? Are we supposed to obey them too???? How many people will go along with it because of that verse???????

He also said in one verse to follow him................follow him? A human being? I follow Jesus, not paul.

There were other things that I read, also written by paul, that just didn't set well with me, but I don't remember them all.

So, what's the deal?

 

[ananda]

(1) Since Greek only has one present tense, "believes" is probably a better translation than your six-word phrase, which added all kinds of things to the text. In English, "believes" also has a continuous meaning, anyway.

The Greek present tense has little to do with the English present tense! They share the same name, but are both significantly and radically different! The English present tense on its own simply indicates something that is occuring in the present. The Greek present tense indicates something that starts to happen, and continues onwards into the indefinite future. The event may start happening in the past, in the present, or in the future - the Greek present tense has no indication of time! When the Greek present tense is combined with the indicative mood, then it implies something that starts happening in the present, and extends into the indefinite future. πιστεύων is in the Greek present tense, and it is not in the indicative mood; it only indicates ongoing action.

The English word "believes" on its own does hint of an ongoing or continuous meaning, but generally speaking, and in most people's eyes, I would say it has the more common meaning of a one-time event. That is why adding "continues to believe" or "keeps on believing" clarifies this tense and mood; perhaps the modifiers should be in italics like the KJV used for interpolated words.

(2) You're misunderstanding the subjunctive here. It does not say "whoever believes in him might perhaps have eternal life." Rather, with ἵνα the subjunctive simply expresses purpose: God gave his one and only Son so that ...

The fact that ἵνα is a conjunction has little to do with the subjunctive mood of ἔχῃ. ἵνα is simply used to join the two thoughts together. How does it modify ἔχῃ? ἔχῃ is clearly subjunctive, and it implies uncertainty. Any interlinear or ultra-literal translation will show this is true:

YLT: for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
Concordant: for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
ABPI: thus indeed loved - God the world that the Son the only begotten he gave that everyone who believes on him not might perish but might have life eternal

(3) You're mistranslating the verb: πιστεύων εἰς means "believing in." Let's look at what some Bible versions have:

ESV: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
NIV: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
HCSB: For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
NLT: For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
MESSAGE: This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.

They all have some version of the literal translation I gave.

Thanks, but those are not literal enough for me. If I may quote some of my sources again:

YLT: for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.
Concordant: for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Most popular bible translations have no incentive to clarify this verse to the n'th degree as the YLT and Concordant has done, as I imagine that they have sale numbers clearly in mind. A translation which changes this well-known and popular verse will likely stay unknown and unpopular. It is hard to go against 400+ years of tradition!

Secondly, check the scholarly lexicons for the meaning of pisteuo ... Liddels include comply, obey; TDNT includes trust, obey. The opposite of pisteuo - apeitheo - clearly means "disobedience" or "refusal to obey" (1Pet 2:7), which confirms the additional meaning(s) of pisteuo as I've translated it - "trust" and "faithfully obedient".

I stand by my translation.

"For Elohim so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever continues to be faithfully obedient in Him should not perish, but should have everlasting life." Jn 3:16